Fat knight tacticae - how to field a Porphyrion

[MajorNese]

...back online.

 

As I've ordered a porphy, and reading through the rules: The only keyword is Questor Imperialis, not the allegiance one. So they're prevented from choosing any Mechanicus-aligned households, right? Or did they FAQ that? That will be hard to explain to my red-painted, cog-and-skull-covered atropos though...

 

As for the relics, the 2+/4++ seems great. Rotate Ion Shields increases it to its maximum of 3++, shrugging off a lot of heavier fire, and maximizing the potential of spending CP for invul rerolls. Fun fact, as the porphy is not a Dominus class knight, it's still just 1CP for the rotating.

 

If the knight were possible to be mechanicus-aligned, a small AdMech force would definitely be fun. Repairing a wound or two, handing over doctrinas, and providing a lot of cheap bodies to screen it for a while/kill chaff. Otherwise, Astramiliwhatnow and lots of guardsmen would fill the chaff killer role, and enable me to field a metric ton of thralls as guardsmen.

 

To distract heavy weapons fire, I'm rather tempted to run warglaives. Now they're reasonably cheap, in the opponent's face quite early, and will redirect a lot of attention by threatening more than just one target. As well as being rather cheap models thanks to Forgebane. A porphy and 4 armigers leave enough points for an AdMech Btl and a bit of wiggle room, for dragoons or even more chaff. Or lots and lots of expendable guardsmen. Maybe not tournament-grade stuff, but looks fun on paper.

[Stray]

The Atrapos will understand, it has exactly the same rules issue :P

 

It hasn't been FAQ'd, but it's been stated that it will be. Watch for an update around the time that the Knight FAQ drops.

[MajorNese]

Well, we'll see. Guess it would have been in there from the beginning, if FW actually foresaw the keywords GW would use, but their divination powers aren't that precise.

 

After looking through the knight house rules, I guess it's either Hawkshroud (Imperialis) or Taranis (Mechanicus) for me. Hawkshroud means the porphy must be down to 11W to not hit everything on a 2+ (except for Eldar of course), and Taranis makes it even more unkillable. Both useful for making the armiger distraction a greater threat, either by slower-deteriorating profile or by ignoring wounds.

 

Vulker would have been the theoretical choice for a shooty knight, but only applied to the closest target won't work, as big targets are usually screened.

 

The relics and warlord traits don't change much, as they're (for me at least) fixed to getting that 2+/3++ while rotating.

[Heliomanes]

Questor Mechanicus have a stratagem that will let a single knight fight as if it hasn't been wounded, which seems a lot more interesting than the Hawkshroud bonus. Between that and the reroll to hit ability you gain from House Krast, I think that the lists I have will alternate between Raven and Krast. Krast when I use the Porphyrion with warglaives and/or gallants, and Raven when he takes the field with other shooty knights and Helverins.

[MajorNese]

Well, opinions may differ. Raven and Krast are IMO a good one for CC knights and the porphy's distraction entourage, but not the big boy himself. If I have to rely on advancing to get in range/LoS, or stomp on something because the guns are too weak, I probably have done something very, very wrong with my porphyrion.

 

Hawkshroud is rather useful IMO, for the rough list I have in mind. Reducing the need for using CP for a temporary restoration, removing the desire to do so until the knight is almost dead, and affecting all knights at the same time (armiger packs, yay), it might be the difference for an armiger making its hits/charge (undamaged profile while 2/3 dead, no strat used) while presenting a larger threat, and more CPs left for Rotate or save reroll. Taranis would be the brute force approach, making big stompy robots even more resilient, and allowing repairs/stratagems by AdMech personnel. "Yeah, with all the incense my techpriest is smoking, this almost-titan is totally in cover."

[Heliomanes]

The rest of the thread is full of reasons why those Houses are good for the Porphyrion, which your post doesn't adress. Raven because of the stratagem, and Krast because of the relic and warlord trait. All three buff his offensive output considerably. If you prefer to go for the 2+ 4++ route (which I myself am enclined to), then going Raven for the stratagem can be huge, since you reroll 1s to hit, to wound, and for all the D3s you roll to determine number of shots.

I agree that Hawkshroud can be good for a list that doesn't want to use stratagems or rely on CP generation, but I'm not convinced that its a good list design philosophy. We have a lot of fun and good stratagems, might as well use them - even if that means we'll need some ground support in our lists. :)

[Stray]

You both have reasonable arguments really, at least in my humble opinion.

 

Personally, I don't see the Hawkshroud Tradition as being as attractive as some of the Mechanicus ones either, but then, as Helio knows, I'd equip my Porphy much more aggressively than he would tend to also.

 

I don't think there's a 'wrong way' presented here. Probably in terms of what you're facing, there'd be an 'optimal' approach we could find on a situation by situation basis, but in general terms it likely really just comes down to different list design ideas.

[MajorNese]

I fully agree, there are different approaches, which make other knight houses more suited than my choices. Protect the knight for a round or two more, keep it shooting for a round or two more at top profile, and it offsets the bonus of (for example) the Raven stratagem. Opposed to the "If I kill them first, they can't kill me" approach, maximizing the damage output per round to take out the things that could kill it, which could fit Raven/Krast.

 

My preferred route is to make the porphy as tough as possible, as fielding a Thunderhawk (identical profile, -1 to hit, 12" less enemy ranged weapon range) on occasion showed me how quickly such a model can die if focused. Increasing it to 2+/3++ is a huge difference, as the usual 5++ is just unreliable, and most medium multi-wound weapons have an AP of just -1 or -2, decreasing a 3+ armour far enough to get through and make successful rerolls less likely to work. This requires at least the WT and relic for a 2+/3++ when rotating, and then for example the Krast tradition would be rather useless as it doesn't offer anything for the porphy itself. Opposed to Taranis, which would give it another layer of saves. Hawkshroud is the best Imperialis fit for my approach, as long as the keyword thing isn't FAQed, but not the optimal choice. At least it discourages focusing, as the "If I remove just one more wound, it'll shoot worse" point will happen less often.

[Heliomanes]

I think you are absolutely right, Stray. You could also say that there's no "right" way of reasonably bringing 850 points of anti-tank in a single model to begin with :p

MajorNese's phrase "the porphy's distraction entourage" is just priceless. I just wanted us all to set aside a few seconds to appreciate it fully.
 

[Stray]

Ha ha, true story!

[MajorNese]

I think you are absolutely right, Stray. You could also say that there's no "right" way of reasonably bringing 850 points of anti-tank in a single model to begin with

That's the problem I see with the porphyrion  - it's a lot of points, and single point of failure if taken out before killing all heavies. Unless you bring even more anti tank, which would also be unreasonable. Better to make it such an unappealingly hard target, that the focus shifts to the knightlings right in front of the enemy lines.

[Heliomanes]

True. If you go too far in that direction though, the enemy will do the smart thing and just ignore it, and rather focus on annihilating the rest of your army and winning the objectives game. So you have to tempt them or force them to keep directing some firepower or melee units at it, to provide the most utility for your army as a whole. A hard balance to strike.

[Stray]

Honestly? The way I see it, I'd kinda like the other guy to be shooting at the Porphyrion when I field it. That way he ignores the Gallants I'm ramming down his throat :P

 

If he focuses the Gallants on the other hand, he feels the wrath of Porphy.

 

That said, the Porphyrion is simply too expensive to be fielded truly seriously. I figure you field it for fun, or in really big games.

[MajorNese]

That said, the Porphyrion is simply too expensive to be fielded truly seriously. I figure you field it for fun, or in really big games.

True. Fielded the Thunderhawk in a tournament once, for fun, back when it just cost 830p and not 1500p. Didn't leave much room for other stuff at 1850, and still died after 1/2/3 rounds respectively, as only one opponent recognized the 2 razorbacks as a valid target. There's a reason I want the porphyrion to survive longer...

[Clingy]

I’m considering getting my Porphy commission painted.

 

**I’m terrible at painting**

 

It will be a while before I can use him so might have to proxy.

 

(Clingy pushes shoebox forward 6” to get into range)

[Clingy]

So in light of warlord trait/relics being locked down due to poor wording....

 

Porphy

Gallant

Gallant

Hellverin

Hellverin

 

What can I do to improve my list?

[Heliomanes]

The warlord traits and relics stratagems being locked to Questoris and Dominus chassis isn't such a bad thing. Suddenly we have a lot of ways to generate more CPs anyway, so Grand Strategist and Monitor Malevolous isn't as much of a necessity as it used to be.

I plan on using this 2k points list soon;

Krast lance:
Porphyrion with lascannons. Natural warlord, with the 4++ trait and the Headsman relic.
Gallant with 2+ armor and Landstrider (2 cp in total)
2 Armiger Warglaives

Guard Batallion
2x Company Commanders, Kurov's Aquila (1cp)
10 Guardsmen
10 Guardsmen
10 Guardsmen

Stygies patrol:
Enginseer
6 Rangers, 2 arquebuses
10 Vanguard, 3 plasma and a data-tether


That'll generate 3+3+5 command points, and I only spend 3 of them before the battle. Thanks to the Aquila, I'll generate an additional cp for every 3 my opponent uses, on average anyway.

[Nusquam]

Where are you getting relics and warlord traits being locked to Questoris or Dominus? It's not in either FAQ or Codex that I can find.

 

Unless you mean just the stratgems for additional?

[Clingy]

Wording on those stratagems (heirlooms and exalted court) is “Dominus Class” or “Questoris Class”

 

Sadly all the Ceratus and Acastus forgeworld models aren’t mentioned so it’s tough titties if you want to use it on those sadly :(

[MajorNese]

Guard Batallion

2x Company Commanders, Kurov's Aquila (1cp)

That won't work. Only the faction containing your warlord can have a relic, and the 1cp stratagem can only give an ADDITIONAL relic, meaning you need the first. Meaning you need to make AM your warlord. And the AM stratagem mentions that all of your relics must be given to [different] AM characters.

[Heliomanes]

 

Guard Batallion

2x Company Commanders, Kurov's Aquila (1cp)

That won't work. Only the faction containing your warlord can have a relic, and the 1cp stratagem can only give an ADDITIONAL relic, meaning you need the first. Meaning you need to make AM your warlord. And the AM stratagem mentions that all of your relics must be given to [different] AM characters.

 

Really? I see plenty of lists using it in tournaments etc, because of this section of the Death Guard FAQ;

 

"Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and

I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of

Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death

Guard Character?

A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to

Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the

appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard

Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems."

[Stray]

 

 

Guard Batallion

2x Company Commanders, Kurov's Aquila (1cp)

That won't work. Only the faction containing your warlord can have a relic, and the 1cp stratagem can only give an ADDITIONAL relic, meaning you need the first. Meaning you need to make AM your warlord. And the AM stratagem mentions that all of your relics must be given to [different] AM characters.

 

Really? I see plenty of lists using it in tournaments etc, because of this section of the Death Guard FAQ;

 

"Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and

I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of

Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death

Guard Character?

A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to

Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the

appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard

Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems."

 

 

You have to be careful with the word 'Additional', too many ways to read a sentence when GW add that little turn of phrase.

 

There's a famous story about M:tG, where one of the writers/creators encountered a player who interpreted the following card text far too literally:

 

'Your opponent loses their next turn'

 

Needless to say, he believed he'd won many a game just by playing that card xD

The writer also learned that unambiguous phrasing is everything, because common sense is rarer than he had believed :P

[Heliomanes]

Lol, I guess somebody should have told that story to the GW writers. Anyway, this FAQ contradicts MajorNese's interpretation of the rules, and seems to be in vogue in the ITC and other tournament cycles, which leaves the burden of proof in the opposite camp. I'm not heartbroken if I get to use the relic or not, it's just frustrating to have to contend with a vague ruleset, so I'd be happy to have any kind of clarification.

[Stray]

Lol, I guess somebody should have told that story to the GW writers. Anyway, this FAQ contradicts MajorNese's interpretation of the rules, and seems to be in vogue in the ITC and other tournament cycles, which leaves the burden of proof in the opposite camp. I'm not heartbroken if I get to use the relic or not, it's just frustrating to have to contend with a vague ruleset, so I'd be happy to have any kind of clarification.

 

I agree with your interpretation given the weight of evidence really.

 

I think the key here is what the 'additional' relic, is in 'addition' to. And that hasn't been made implicitly clear by the wording. 

Given the way it's being played by general consensus, and from the FAQ's for similar rules, I'd say that it's 'in addition' to the free Warlord relic you receive, but it doesn't matter one bit which faction/subfaction the original relic is from for the purposes of the Stratagem.

 

Edit:

Looking at it actually, it doesn't even say additional:

'Your army can have one extra relic from the Heirlooms of Conquest for 1 CP, or two extra relics for 3 CP's'

 

You'd have a similar argument in interpretation no doubt, but again, there's two ways of reading it. It doesn't implicitly imply that you need to have an existing relic from the Guard selection for me, just a relic full stop, and that the extra one(s) will be drawn from the Guard selection.

[Tiger9gamer]

hey, you are spending two Cp's on a relic, having less to do awesome stuff later on for awesome stuff now. Imho, I would say it's fine, and would let my opponent do it before the game if they ask.