HH 51 - Slaves to Darkness

[Marshal Loss]

Heck, there's even a sorta throwaway line in Slaves to Darkness about anti-Space Marine ammunition, which has only been created/popularized those past years because there wouldn't have been a point in that specialized type of weapon with such a singular purpose before the civil war.

 

That is a reference to Banestrike ammunition, used by the Sons of Horus (mainly Reavers, e.g. Ekaddon in Slaves to Darkness, who is described as using it) and the Alpha Legion in FW's Black Books.

 

Building on that, there are quite a few references in FW's HH series to marines that knew only the Heresy, and not the GC that preceded it. Given French's involvement in so many of FW's HH books, it makes sense that he'd be the one to start incorporating this theme into the BL series.

[Preliminary Bombardment]

I'd pay good money for a hard logistics book pre-seige detailing out in painful detail force disposition and numbers.

 

Gimme numbers!

[Biscuittzz]

 

Heck, there's even a sorta throwaway line in Slaves to Darkness about anti-Space Marine ammunition, which has only been created/popularized those past years because there wouldn't have been a point in that specialized type of weapon with such a singular purpose before the civil war.

 

That is a reference to Banestrike ammunition, used by the Sons of Horus (mainly Reavers, e.g. Ekaddon in Slaves to Darkness, who is described as using it) and the Alpha Legion in FW's Black Books.

 

Building on that, there are quite a few references in FW's HH series to marines that knew only the Heresy, and not the GC that preceded it. Given French's involvement in so many of FW's HH books, it makes sense that he'd be the one to start incorporating this theme into the BL series.

 

 

I believe this type of ammunition is showcased again within Corax, where a techmarine uses a recovered traitor bolter with the ammo in a firing range to show the officers just what they are up against. ( The target dummy is a breastplate of Raven Guard astartes battle armour). To be honest I don't read much into the different ammunitions within the BL series, as IMO there is a massive disparity between what bolt rounds seem to do in action across the series. Some rounds seem to harmlessly ping off armour whereas others blow straight through the other side of the marine, and this has nothing to do with targeting weak points etc. Some authors write about bolts as the miniature self contained rocket propelled ammunition that they technically are while others seem to treat them as similar to modern day bullets.

[Legionator]

Am I the only one who liken the novel to Requiem for a Dream? All of the Chaotic characters were messed up rather than being evil.

[b1soul]

That's a very good sign

 

Good villains are not evil for evil's sake

 

They are advancing what they think is good in their way

 

It's actually not absurd to think Chaos (Daemon Princedom) offers more freedom than serving the Imperium

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, that's kinda what this book is discussing, the fact that Chaos doesn't make you free, it literally enslaves you. Their goals are distorting and tearing them apart from each other. Fulgrim and Angron both don't really have any desires beyond the goals of their patron deity, and as for Horus...

 

He's literally being torn apart as the Chaos Gods bicker over who gets to claim him completely.

 

Even Perturabo has learned that siding with Horus in the war has meant just more of the same grinding warfare as what pushed them into rebellion, it's just that the name of the person he does it for has changed.

[Lucifer216]

Did anyone else feel that Lorgar was acting like he'd downloaded Erebus's personality for most of the book?

The plot to replace Horus seemed more like something Erebus would do than Lorger, even with the latter's personal growth since the events of The First Heretic.

[1ncarnadine]

Did anyone else feel that Lorgar was acting like he'd downloaded Erebus's personality for most of the book?

 

The plot to replace Horus seemed more like something Erebus would do than Lorger, even with the latter's personal growth since the events of The First Heretic.

 

I didn't get that, no. Here's how I see Lorgar, keeping in mind we all have our personal interpretations and assumptions:

 

Everything Lorgar has done until now has built up to this. Everything Lorgar has been has built to this.

 

Think about what Lorgar wants: humanity united under one absolute truth, and right now that truth is Chaos. He was literally made to unite humanity under one truth, although what truth he believed in happened to be subverted. 

 

Horus is actually a threat to Lorgar's own purpose for being, in that he may not have the follow-through to do what Lorgar needs to do. Unfortunately, the Chaos Gods don't actually want what Lorgar wants. He's yet another slave. Whether he realized that for himself at the end of the novel or not is yet to be seen.

 

edit- thinking more on motivations, and what really separates Erebus, Kor Phaeron and Lorgar:

Kor Phaeron's are simple. His religion is power, the two are interchangeable to him.

But actually you may be right in Erebus not falling all that far from the tree. He also wants what he believes the Gods want, and he'll twist his interpretation of faith to suit his purposes, just like Lorgar.

 

And of course none of these 3 would actually allow themselves to die for their faith, because if they die, their beliefs die with them. They know on some level that they've fostered cults of personality. They're all happy to have others become martyrs for them.

 

but as Sandlemad comments below, I do still find the characters have distinct voices.

[Sandlemad]

Did anyone else feel that Lorgar was acting like he'd downloaded Erebus's personality for most of the book?

 

The plot to replace Horus seemed more like something Erebus would do than Lorger, even with the latter's personal growth since the events of The First Heretic.

 

I kind of get you on the plot front but he still read as clearly Lorgar to me, particularly in his dialogue. Still fey, still removed (his lack of attention during all those scenes when thousands of serfs were sacrificed was pretty emphatic, seemed like this book had more of those scenes than most), still solemnly asking sacrifice of his sons for the truth.

 

Still making all of his actions for his usurpation plot as though with a sigh, like they're necessities and heavy burdens which he must bear. It's mournful that he must be the one to crush his brother but he will do it with a heavy heart because he's absolutely self-assured (and incorrect here) in knowing what the gods want, in knowing the only way. There's shades of French's Ahriman there, though it does comfortably line up with ADB's Lorgar, particularly in Betrayer.

 

I feel like Erebus would have done all plotting with the same irritatingly calm professionalism he brought to turning Horus/unleashing the Ruinstorm/mudering Argel Tal. He'd probably do it with a slight, beneficent smile as well, which I can't imagine on Lorgar.

[betrayer41]

Just finished it........HOLY   this book is awesome!. If your a heretic astartes player/hobbyist and this doesn't light a fire under you butt and kick things into gear I don't know what will.....The last bit was amazing. Im about to start it again.

 

First time in quite a while a HH book has me eager for the upcoming books....except titan death since it comes before this haha.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I mean, since night lords are my #1 traitors the book doesn't do much for them. That being said, theyre the one legion that pretty much just does whatever they want post thramas, without a lot of the chaos influence or drive behind rebelling.

[betrayer41]

I mean, since night lords are my #1 traitors the book doesn't do much for them. That being said, theyre the one legion that pretty much just does whatever they want post thramas.

 

I feel ya haha even if world Eaters weren't there Id still feel the same just feels like were really getting somewhere haha

[DarkChaplain]

I was honestly surprised the book didn't drop the names of some Night Lords characters we know are headed back into action (like The Painted Count tells us, for example). We know some joined Horus at Ullanor, and other characters got namedrops here and there. Makes me wonder if things aren't heading to Terra just yet after all, as far as the Night Lords from the Pharos arc are concerned...

[SchultzChaos]

Not just any Night Lords but

Covenant of Blood and Echo of Damnation

. Funny no one has mentioned them.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I was honestly surprised the book didn't drop the names of some Night Lords characters we know are headed back into action (like The Painted Count tells us, for example). We know some joined Horus at Ullanor, and other characters got namedrops here and there. Makes me wonder if things aren't heading to Terra just yet after all, as far as the Night Lords from the Pharos arc are concerned...

 

The Night Lords were never really noted for being at the Siege of Terra though, before the Black Library series they just took part at the Massacre, then had vague mentions of holding up the Dark Angels from taking part in the Heresy. From memory, the Night Lords trilogy was the first mention of Night Lords fighting on Terra.

[Sandlemad]

 

I was honestly surprised the book didn't drop the names of some Night Lords characters we know are headed back into action (like The Painted Count tells us, for example). We know some joined Horus at Ullanor, and other characters got namedrops here and there. Makes me wonder if things aren't heading to Terra just yet after all, as far as the Night Lords from the Pharos arc are concerned...

 

The Night Lords were never really noted for being at the Siege of Terra though, before the Black Library series they just took part at the Massacre, then had vague mentions of holding up the Dark Angels from taking part in the Heresy. From memory, the Night Lords trilogy was the first mention of Night Lords fighting on Terra.

 

 

Wasn't there something in Lord of the Night about Zso Sahaal and his raptors being the first of the traitor forces to get over the walls? Not a massive role but the current history of the siege is pretty much made of these kind of minor anecdotes.

[bluntblade]

I assume Sevatar remains in a cage, then?

[A D-B]

I assume Sevatar remains in a cage, then?

 

Where he belongs, like the naughty boy he is.

[helterskelter]

I assume Sevatar remains in a cage, then?

It's better than being in a floating space coffin.

Not getting invested in any more characters, too much George R.R. Martin going on, and there's too much wondering when someone's going to die, or going "they're dead" if the character is half decent.

[Scribe]

 

I assume Sevatar remains in a cage, then?

It's better than being in a floating space coffin.

Not getting invested in any more characters, too much George R.R. Martin going on, and there's too much wondering when someone's going to die, or going "they're dead" if the character is half decent.

 

 

...

 

What exactly do you expect, if the setting remains true to itself? It's not about happy endings around here.

[helterskelter]

 

 

 

I assume Sevatar remains in a cage, then?

It's better than being in a floating space coffin.

Not getting invested in any more characters, too much George R.R. Martin going on, and there's too much wondering when someone's going to die, or going "they're dead" if the character is half decent.

...

 

What exactly do you expect, if the setting remains true to itself? It's not about happy endings around here.

Expecting them to die gloriously at the siege for the most part if I'm being honest.

We're stuck with too many characters we know are going to live, because reasons, just a few really good characters to make it to the eternity gate, or the walls or die in the space above is it too much to ask?

Not just, here's abbadon and half the cast of talon of horus/storm of iron/someone Graham McNeil has mentioned/Alpharius and a bunch of redshirts who have had to have been made up because anyone relevant is gone or in prison.

[Slan Drakkos]

I was honestly surprised the book didn't drop the names of some Night Lords characters we know are headed back into action (like The Painted Count tells us, for example). We know some joined Horus at Ullanor, and other characters got namedrops here and there. Makes me wonder if things aren't heading to Terra just yet after all, as far as the Night Lords from the Pharos arc are concerned...

I'm more of a fan of the show, don't tell technique, so I feel like it was perfect in the case of the VIII legion. They don't really show up as a cohesive force, aren't really adding anything that Horus doesn't already have in spades, and even their big guns and top men at the muster on Ullinor are as insignificant in comparison to the primarchs (some of whom are daemon princes) as a fly is to a lion.

 

Remember in The First Heretic when Sevetar becomes the first person to say "death to the false emperor" and everyone takes up his statement and starts chanting it? Yeah, they don't have that kind of role because they're not really meant to have that sort of role. In the lore, they are by far the most insignificant of the traitor legions and in the book, they're literally those guys that nobody expects to show up and are surprised when even a few of them do.

 

I could see them being mentioned if the had an important role in the book, but they just didn't.

[MarineRaider]

Re numbers, it's noted in the FW books (though BL really should address it as well) that just as the Fists and later Scars and Blood Angels (and presumably the factions in Ultramar) are conducting accelerated implantation procedures on a massive scale (with horrendous failure rates to show for it), the Traitors have been doing so for longer. Bodt is an extreme example of this.

 

Presumably any failures which can be turned into daemonhosts or servitors are, just as the latter is standard procedure in the Imperium of 40K.

 

I forget which book - I believe it's from Extermination, Conquest or Retribution - explicitly says that the notion of each Legion starting with X number of Astartes and diminishing from there isn't actually what happened.

The numbers in this series will never make sense. I am with you  a nice Order of Battle by anyone would be incredible and very useful. 

[bluntblade]

 

 

 

I assume Sevatar remains in a cage, then?

It's better than being in a floating space coffin.

Not getting invested in any more characters, too much George R.R. Martin going on, and there's too much wondering when someone's going to die, or going "they're dead" if the character is half decent.

...

 

What exactly do you expect, if the setting remains true to itself? It's not about happy endings around here.

Expecting them to die gloriously at the siege for the most part if I'm being honest.

We're stuck with too many characters we know are going to live, because reasons, just a few really good characters to make it to the eternity gate, or the walls or die in the space above is it too much to ask?

Not just, here's abbadon and half the cast of talon of horus/storm of iron/someone Graham McNeil has mentioned/Alpharius and a bunch of redshirts who have had to have been made up because anyone relevant is gone or in prison.

 

I do feel your frustration there - particularly given how the SoH seem to go through good supporting characters like socks. Then again, have the IW had any major characters established in the Heresy?

[Scribe]

 

 

 

 

I assume Sevatar remains in a cage, then?

It's better than being in a floating space coffin.

Not getting invested in any more characters, too much George R.R. Martin going on, and there's too much wondering when someone's going to die, or going "they're dead" if the character is half decent.

...

 

What exactly do you expect, if the setting remains true to itself? It's not about happy endings around here.

Expecting them to die gloriously at the siege for the most part if I'm being honest.

We're stuck with too many characters we know are going to live, because reasons, just a few really good characters to make it to the eternity gate, or the walls or die in the space above is it too much to ask?

Not just, here's abbadon and half the cast of talon of horus/storm of iron/someone Graham McNeil has mentioned/Alpharius and a bunch of redshirts who have had to have been made up because anyone relevant is gone or in prison.

Having a 'bad death' especially for the bad guy, is far more on brand.

 

'you will not be missed' should apply to near every character.

 

Except those with models, or 40K presence, of course.