bluntblade Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 I'm going to start this a little left-field with Delvarus. He serves as an excellent foil to Khârn, demonstrating the pitfalls of the Butcher's Nails. With his example, it's easy to see why Khârn seeks out the friendship of Argel Tal, for example. His public humiliation in the pits also ensures that the talk of brotherhood among the XIIth is much more than a platitude. We see its value, but at the same time AD-B presses the point that it's eroding, another thing being lost to the depredations of the Nails. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roomsky Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 The entire last half of Betrayer is basically one authorial win after another. Not to say the first half isn't good, but the moment the book moves away from Armatura the character beats and action are all pitch perfect. If I had to put my finger on one thing, it would be the final uplifting of Angron and the World Eaters out of bland stereotype territory into a legion of strangely relatable creatures, each dominated by an obsession with their preferred version of the past informing their future, a process which began back in After Desh`ea. Also Lotarra. And some of ADB's best void warfare. And and that death. Aaron's certainly not guilty of making his character's survival seem a guarantee. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5107383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmacht Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Haven't read the book in a long time but remember a lot of it. The part that sticks out the most to me was the conversation between Khârn and Lorgar at the end of the book about Angron and the situation he was put in. Then at the end of the scene Lorgar asks him "Would you like to know who killed [him]?" Never had I sided more with a Traitor before or since then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5107388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 14, 2018 Author Share Posted July 14, 2018 Orfeo's deadpan defiance. "The war is over." (Takes in absolute devastation) "Then I accept your surrender." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 I like that is shows why there is a rift between Ultramarines and Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwell84 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 What I remember liking most, in no particular order: Angron's furious rebuttal of Guilliman's 'Courage and Honour' motto. While I think the evidence shows that RG is sincere about his principles, I like how Angron is portrayed as being so broken by his slavery that he is incapable of viewing any ruler or values in a positive light. That's something else the high-riders seem to have stolen from Angron - the ability to believe in any abstract ideals higher than loyalty to fellow warriors only. Angron mourning for his fallen slave-gladiator army. A touching moment. Hat off to ADB for brilliantly building up to [his] death over three books, in a most unexpected but perfectly accurate fulfillment of the prophecy. First time in years I almost literally hit the wall and swore out loud at a character's death. Khârn tearing into Erebus in the fighting pit, then that chilling end scene with Angron chuckling that ‘I am no one’s lord. I never was. Even less so now.’ Almost as if he's fully aware that he's now Khorne's eternal slave and will never have the freedom he longed for. Lorgar, smiling and serene, quietly rebuking Erebus in front of Angron, Khârn and Argel Tal: ‘I am pleased, lord.’ Erebus offered Angron a respectful bow; Khârn and Argel Tal received glances and nods. ‘Calth succeeded beyond all expectation.’ Lorgar bared a thin crescent of porcelain-white teeth in a subtle smile. ‘Success beyond expectation? Truly? Then I would ask, if this is the case, why does the warp’s melody not sing of such an outcome?’ They all saw it. The moment Erebus stood straighter, guarding himself, sensing something was wrong. ‘Calm, Erebus. I only wish to share this moment of triumph with you. So. Calth has fallen, the Ultramarines are finished and Guilliman is dead. That was, after all, the expectation of success that you claim to have exceeded. So you are to be commended. I’ve been worried that you’d failed to kill my brother, lost half the fleet I granted you to an Ultramarines counter-attack, and abandoned tens of thousands of my sons and mortal servants on Calth’s irradiated surface while you fled into the Maelstrom.’ Always makes me chuckle Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 ALL. OF. IT. There is literally nothing I don't like about that novel Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Night of the Wolf Look at how much discussion that generated... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarvek Val Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I am in agreement with Brother Jarl; the book tells a beautifully woven tale from start to finish and is easily one of my favorite HH books. It even made me like the Word Bearers Legion slightly which, seeing as they were previously one of my least favorite Traitor Legions, is an accomplishment! Just a few of the aspects that I most enjoyed: - Lotarra Sarrin absolutely shutting down Delvarus in front of all of his men. Lotarra Sarrin comes across to me as one of the strongest-willed and passionate mortals involved in the Heresy, and the power and respect she demands both from her crew and the Astartes of the World Eaters makes her a fascinating character. I mean, how many mortals managed to survive shooting a World Eater in the face with a pistol? Loved that scene! - Speaking of Sarrin... I love the idea of the Ursus Claws. What a perfect invention that utterly fits the spirit of the World Eaters! "Deploy the Ursus Claws!" has got to be one of the most commonly-said sentences Sarrin utters, aha! - The expansion of the relationship between Argel Tal and Cyrene Valantion, "The Blessed Lady" of the Word Bearers. The unique bond of care and trust between Argel Tal, the daemonic Gal Vorbak warrior, and Valantion, the gentle victim of Roboute Guilliman's attack on Monarchia, is nothing short of moving. I wish there were more portrayals such as this, of relationships between humans and Astartes in the 31st Millennium. There are those explored in the books Scars and the opening trilogy with the remembrancers, but I wish these kind of interactions and "unlikely friendships" were explored more in the HH arc as a whole. - As Orwell said, the fulfillment of that specific prophecy. It was so well-done and unexpected. I was absolutely devastated, and still am on every re-read of the book! It just makes me hate a certain Word Bearer even more than I did previously... - When Khârn challenges Erebus to a bout in the fighting pits, then proceeds to literally dismantle Erebus piece-by-piece. I so, so wish that the duel had been allowed to progress to its natural conclusion, as I am not at all a fan of the First Chaplain! - The discussion between Lorgar and Khârn. When Lorgar says "do you want to know who killed him?" it really kicked me in the gut. At the end of the day, this single scene went a long ways towards showing me that Lorgar truly did still care for his sons, and that he wasn't simply pursuing vengeance against his father for all the wrongs he believed he had been dealt. He truly, truly believed in the righteousness of his cause enough to put the lives of his favorite sons on the board, and his heartfelt rage and grief at the loss of [you know who] was something to behold. There are so many other things about the book that I could sit here listing them all night, but I'll leave it at this for now. A wonderful read, sure as sure. Edit: auto-correct changed "Roboute Guilliman" to "Robot Guilliman". While I for one don't mind the chance, it's still a typo... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I like that is shows why there is a rift between Ultramarines and Word Bearers. This book did'nt show that that was shown in the first heretic. You did'nt read the book did you ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Oh I was thinking it was betrayer... heretic is a good one too. I don’t have any favorite scenes from the former as it’s a heretical foray but I did enjoy the scene where Angron rebutted Russ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I had something to say, but Jarl Kjaran Coldheart already said it. I really like everything in this book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Oh I was thinking it was betrayer... heretic is a good one too. I don’t have any favorite scenes from the former as it’s a heretical foray but I did enjoy the scene where Angron rebutted Russ. The scene where Angron rebutted Russ was my favorite scene as well. Russ assumed that he could bully Angron in going along with him when he had neither the right not the authority to do so and it bit him in the ass. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 What I remember liking most, in no particular order: Angron's furious rebuttal of Guilliman's 'Courage and Honour' motto. While I think the evidence shows that RG is sincere about his principles, I like how Angron is portrayed as being so broken by his slavery that he is incapable of viewing any ruler or values in a positive light. That's something else the high-riders seem to have stolen from Angron - the ability to believe in any abstract ideals higher than loyalty to fellow warriors only. Angron mourning for his fallen slave-gladiator army. A touching moment. Hat off to ADB for brilliantly building up to [his] death over three books, in a most unexpected but perfectly accurate fulfillment of the prophecy. First time in years I almost literally hit the wall and swore out loud at a character's death. Khârn tearing into Erebus in the fighting pit, then that chilling end scene with Angron chuckling that ‘I am no one’s lord. I never was. Even less so now.’ Almost as if he's fully aware that he's now Khorne's eternal slave and will never have the freedom he longed for. Lorgar, smiling and serene, quietly rebuking Erebus in front of Angron, Khârn and Argel Tal: ‘I am pleased, lord.’ Erebus offered Angron a respectful bow; Khârn and Argel Tal received glances and nods. ‘Calth succeeded beyond all expectation.’ Lorgar bared a thin crescent of porcelain-white teeth in a subtle smile. ‘Success beyond expectation? Truly? Then I would ask, if this is the case, why does the warp’s melody not sing of such an outcome?’ They all saw it. The moment Erebus stood straighter, guarding himself, sensing something was wrong. ‘Calm, Erebus. I only wish to share this moment of triumph with you. So. Calth has fallen, the Ultramarines are finished and Guilliman is dead. That was, after all, the expectation of success that you claim to have exceeded. So you are to be commended. I’ve been worried that you’d failed to kill my brother, lost half the fleet I granted you to an Ultramarines counter-attack, and abandoned tens of thousands of my sons and mortal servants on Calth’s irradiated surface while you fled into the Maelstrom.’ Always makes me chuckle Guilliman may be sincere in his principles but life for him as a Primarch was basically easy mode. Angron is correct that Guilliman never really had to struggle prior to the emperors arrival as sincere as Guilliman is he can never relate and understand what life was for Angron. Angron as damaged as he is had valid points in his rants against Guilliman Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orwell84 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 What I remember liking most, in no particular order: Angron's furious rebuttal of Guilliman's 'Courage and Honour' motto. While I think the evidence shows that RG is sincere about his principles, I like how Angron is portrayed as being so broken by his slavery that he is incapable of viewing any ruler or values in a positive light. That's something else the high-riders seem to have stolen from Angron - the ability to believe in any abstract ideals higher than loyalty to fellow warriors only. Guilliman may be sincere in his principles but life for him as a Primarch was basically easy mode. Angron is correct that Guilliman never really had to struggle prior to the emperors arrival as sincere as Guilliman is he can never relate and understand what life was for Angron. Angron as damaged as he is had valid points in his rants against Guilliman No doubt Angron had it far worse growing up than Guilliman did and what he says about their upbringings is correct. That doesn't necessarily mean Guilliman was wrong when he pointed out to Angron that he was still a slave to his past and too full of hate and spite to overcome it. In fairness to Guilliman, he might not have known just how damaging the Butcher's Nails were, or perhaps felt Angron had knowingly done wrong in inflicting the same on his sons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Orfeo's deadpan defiance. "The war is over." (Takes in absolute devastation) "Then I accept your surrender." I thank you,AD-B, for this moment. It was so good. You did the XIIIth justice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5124480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
betrayer41 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 "our turn"-Khârn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5125230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 The fact that in a Titan Legion, there's an underappreciated Princeps who has to deal with the admin. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5125353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Orfeo's deadpan defiance. "The war is over." (Takes in absolute devastation) "Then I accept your surrender." I thank you,AD-B, for this moment. It was so good. You did the XIIIth justice. felt for the guy when he was basically tortured after. deserved better Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5125400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 What MC said. Felt sorry for Orfeo, as well. What I liked about Betrayer? This might sound plain and boring but: everything Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5125407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I seem to recall one of the Word Bearers ships in the Forst Heretic being called Orfeos Lament, which is pretty funny. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5125513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 I believe it was the one that carried the Serrated Sun into the Eye. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5125605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I believe it was the one that carried the Serrated Sun into the Eye. Yeah, I remember it having a pivotal role, I think you’re right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5125735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slan Drakkos Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I liked Argel Tal's death the most. He deserved it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5125739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Agreed !!! I always found him to be quite a hypocrite. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348224-things-you-like-about-betrayer/#findComment-5125755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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