Things You Like About... Betrayer

[Slan Drakkos]

Agreed !!! I always found him to be quite a hypocrite.

that's without even mentioning that he ruined

the lives of Angron, Curze, Mortarion, and Perturabo when he helped the gods cast the primarchs into space

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Exactly. Had to think a bit on that one... hee !

[Tarvek Val]

Agreed !!! I always found him to be quite a hypocrite.

 

I wouldn't really call him a hypocrite, myself. He is willing to cast himself into the dimension of the warp at his primarch's command with absolutely no knowledge at all of precisely what he is getting himself into. His loyalty is to his primarch and what he sees as the betterment of mankind; his relationship with Cyrene shows that he is capable of far more than murderous brutality. He became what he was through necessity, not by choice; as did most of the Word Bearers Legion. Prior to Monarchia, they were easily the most faithful and dedicated of the Emperor's Legions, hands-down. It was His mis-management of their beliefs and potential that swayed them to search for darker truths, not their own desires and character traits (as it was for Legions such as the Emperor's Children or World Eaters). To call Argel Tal a hypocrite for following orders and doing what he believed was right seems rather hasty at the very least, if not inconsiderate of the greater themes at large.

[Fire Golem]

Argel Tal to Khârn:

 

‘We're definitely on the wrong side, Khârn.'

'How can you say that?'

'Because both sides are wrong.'

 

Argel Tal is still probably my favourite character in the entire Heresy series.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My issue with him is he acts quite virtuous but is in fact greatly lacking in any morale turpitude which is demonstrated. Khârn on the other hand as an example is pretty honest guy but nothing like how he is portrayed later following the heresy.

[Cleanse And Purify]

If he is lacking in moral turpitude, then he would in fact be quite virtuous.

[Lord_Caerolion]

My issue with him is he acts quite virtuous but is in fact greatly lacking in any morale turpitude which is demonstrated. Khârn on the other hand as an example is pretty honest guy but nothing like how he is portrayed later following the heresy.

 

I would argue that that's because he's not seeking to be a "Good Person", he's seeking the Truth, and the Truth that the Gal Vorbak found is horrific. He and Lorgar essentially believe that the Chaos Gods are a fundamental aspect of reality, and to deny their existence would be like denying physics. He openly acknowledges that the gods they serve are horrific, but has seen what happened when the Eldar refused them. He doesn't like it, but reality is what it is.

 

EDIT: To put it another way, they believe that denying the Chaos Gods existence would be like pretending that death isn't a thing that occurs purely because it's upsetting and sad when it happens. In their mind, the Emperor is someone who has based around a belief that death simply isn't a thing. Sure, the truth sucks, but it's just as true that Khorne exists and demands skulls as the fact that your dog died, rather than "going to a farm upstate, and we'll go visit him one day, you'll see".

[Fire Golem]

 

My issue with him is he acts quite virtuous but is in fact greatly lacking in any morale turpitude which is demonstrated. Khârn on the other hand as an example is pretty honest guy but nothing like how he is portrayed later following the heresy.

 

 

I would argue that that's because he's not seeking to be a "Good Person", he's seeking the Truth, and the Truth that the Gal Vorbak found is horrific. He and Lorgar essentially believe that the Chaos Gods are a fundamental aspect of reality, and to deny their existence would be like denying physics. He openly acknowledges that the gods they serve are horrific, but has seen what happened when the Eldar refused them. He doesn't like it, but reality is what it is.

It’s what makes him so interesting. He knows that the Chaos gods aren’t good, and that by extension he isn’t a good person, and yet they are the truth. And I think the struggle between that is interesting, personally.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's what makes his attachment and protectiveness to Cyrene so heartfelt, because he's trying to hold on to what little "good" he has, compared to the "glory days" of the early Crusade.

[Manchu warlord]

I liked

Argel Tal's death the most.

He deserved it.

That, and the death of the Fidelitas Lex; I was so happy when I read it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Cyrene ain’t no daisy either.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Cyrene ain’t no daisy either.

 

No, but to hear Argel Tal tell it, she ain't a fool pretending that down is up because she doesn't like how physics works.

 

If the Emperor had told Lorgar the truth about Chaos from the beginning, I have no doubt that he would have been one of the most loyal Primarchs. As it was, the Chaos Gods could (rightly) say the Emperor was trying to pretend that 2+2=5 because he doesn't like the number 4.

[Kelborn]

But here's a thing.

Currently reading MoM and in here we got the Emperor saying to Ra that he informed the Primarchs about Chaos, etc., that he gave them everything they needed to know and still, they felt to their whispers.

 

Now, is that yet another fragment of the truth, which he's sharing with Ra (you know, the "whoever speaks with Big E sense him differently") or is it something which was retconned / forgotten in between First Heretic and MoM?

 

They were both written by Aaron himself. I'm just curious if that is a coincedence or on purpose to leave it open for the reader.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Or is it the Emperor thinking that telling the Primarchs that "guys, there's bad things in the Warp. Ok, now go Crusade!" He certainly seems to have held a lot back, I wouldn't be surprised if he's misjudged exactly what they "need to know" and it backfired.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Primarchs know about the Chaos gods... which is depicted in a scene from one of the early HH novels. It’s not like Lorgar didn’t know. He followed them to spite Big E. In fact he knew exactly what he was doing.

[Fire Golem]

Primarchs know about the Chaos gods... which is depicted in a scene from one of the early HH novels. It’s not like Lorgar didn’t know. He followed them to spite Big E. In fact he knew exactly what he was doing.

No they don’t. The early scene I think you’re thinking of is Horus talking to Loken about the warp, they just see it as another type of Xenos really. They don’t know much at all about Chaos.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They knew what it was but it was considered classified information.

 

It was a lot of stuff that made it happen, and it was different for each primarch. It started with Kor Pharon and Erebus, who saw some potential in some chaos cults in planets they conqured, and chose not to exterminate them. Lorgar’s religious upbringing, and his psyker visions of the future, made him certain that there must be gods, and, until the emperor sent the ultramarines to exterminatus lorgar’s perfect temple city and give Lorgar a psychic and verbal beating, he thought that the emperor was the one true god. when the emperor made it very very clear that he didnt want worship, Kor Pharon and Erebus put forth the idea that there was acutal gods out there. That there had to be a reason that the same cults existed on several worlds that had never had contact, worshipping the same gods. When they finally witnessed and participated in a ritual that summoned a daemon, he saw that as proof. Lorgar thought that worshipping the gods is what gives life its meaning, and started to worship the chaos gods, and went on a pilgrimage into the eye of terror. he then sent erebus to "advice" horus.

[bluntblade]

You seem to have just contradicted your previous post. Indeed, the Primarchs knew of Warp entities, but until Lorgar no one knew of the Ruinous Powers except for Erebus and Kor Phaeron.

[Orwell84]

From what I recall of the early novels, the Big E did in fact hide full knowledge of the Chaos gods from his sons tools. Horus certainly didn't know exactly who he was dealing with in False Gods, and Lorgar in First Heretic seems ignorant enough when Erebus and Kor Phaeron suggest an alternative prayer recipient.

 

Whatever the Emperor's intentions were, or whatever he later said, so far it would seem that his admonitions were too vague and cryptic to really count as fair warning. Only Magnus, it seems, had some idea of the devil's pact he was making during the Crusade era.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I was just going to mention Magnus.

[TheRealMcCagh]

 

Cyrene ain’t no daisy either.

 

No, but to hear Argel Tal tell it, she ain't a fool pretending that down is up because she doesn't like how physics works.

 

If the Emperor had told Lorgar the truth about Chaos from the beginning, I have no doubt that he would have been one of the most loyal Primarchs. As it was, the Chaos Gods could (rightly) say the Emperor was trying to pretend that 2+2=5 because he doesn't like the number 4.

 

 

 

Do you explain to your dog why it shouldn't pee in the house? Or do you just discipline it when it happens and hope they have learned to not do it again? The Emperor was 38k years old by the time the Primarchs came about, it makes sense that he operated on a need to know basis. You just tell your kid spiders are dangerous, so don't play with them. They don't need to know how venom attacks the nervous system, they're just little kids. And that's all the Primarchs are, a bunch of little kids.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

No they are not by any means.

[karden00]

I too loved the death of the Fidelitas Lex. 

Especially in the audio, the panic and despair in Argel Tal when he says "No...No...No, Please No!" was a great moment. There is always a part of me that gets very appreciative of when bad guys experience fear or dread, even though the HH has been great at giving the baddies' point of view. 

 

One thing I didn't like about the novel was the Dark Mechanicum angle. I dunno, maybe the whole "forge me an axe!" thing was just kind of a slow part for me. 

 

My goodness, I was cheering like all the World Eaters when Angron pressed a warhound. What a moment! 

 

 

Hows that for a BS sandwich?! 

[DarKnight]

I might be willing to believe that Lorgar and Argel Tal have a minuscule amount of actual reason to be upset that the Emperor kept the truth of the Warp from them (not humanity though), where they lose me is the whole idea that they need to be worshipped or the human race is destined to be obliterated. Even if the Emperor was working towards some sort of apotheosis and that was something you saw as unfair/wrong because he didn't tell you I don't think running to the other side or destroying those Geller fields on the part of Argel Tal was quite the method to take.

[bluntblade]

I too loved the death of the Fidelitas Lex. 

Especially in the audio, the panic and despair in Argel Tal when he says "No...No...No, Please No!" was a great moment. There is always a part of me that gets very appreciative of when bad guys experience fear or dread, even though the HH has been great at giving the baddies' point of view. 

 

One thing I didn't like about the novel was the Dark Mechanicum angle. I dunno, maybe the whole "forge me an axe!" thing was just kind of a slow part for me. 

 

My goodness, I was cheering like all the World Eaters when Angron pressed a warhound. What a moment! 

 

 

Hows that for a BS sandwich?!

 

Surely it's worth a couple of paragraphs for Vel-Kheredur fondling Lhorke and awkwardly trying to tell jokes?