How do you handle artillery?

[Moostick]

Since our codex dropped, I've generally had a decent chance against most armies...provided they don't have LOS ignoring artillery hidden behind terrain.

 

How do you deal with things like Basilisks, Hive Guards, Mortars and the like, assuming they are out of LOS (and no movement within your zone can see them), screened with bubbles, and protected by enough psykers that charging in with a flyer is a one turn death sentence?

[Zombs]

In my list I use 2 contemptor mortis drednoughts with 4 lascannons each. Drop them with the stratagem in such a position that they are able to usually see the artillery. Since I drop them the first turn, AFTER my opponent has deployed I usually can find a spot to see them.

 

Otherwhise if you want to try, I think Xyphon interceptors are really good! They have 4 lascannons, and they will get hit at a 5+ thanks to being flyers. Also power of the machine spirit, so you can sprint them and get a clean LOS against artillery.

 

My 2 cents :)

[spacewatch]

Similar thoughts here. I use Corvus Blackstar (AC, rockets, HB, auspex) + Kill-Team (SB/Frag) against soft artillery (Killa Kans, small Guard Mortar squads, ”Lootas”, ...). Anything heavier or stronger than that (Basilisk, Wyvern, Big Gunz, Hive Guard, ...) Ven Dread (LCML) and Corvus (lascannons, missiles) moving/teleported/hovering to LOS then shooting and hoping for the best. Have tried melta Kill-Teams, plasma Scions, Hellblasters ...with no luck. Really like the idea of flying lascannons but one Xiphon is not enough and two is too expensive since I’m mostly playing pure DW Veteran army. Probably I try second LCSSML Corvus first.

[Prot]

I was just going to say anything that is a flyer. Typically it’s really hard to hide from flyers but I don’t really like the Corvus. Xiphon is a great gap filler for a few armies. Otherwise you’re waiting for turn 2 with a deep strike unit.

[spacewatch]

I was just going to say anything that is a flyer. Typically it’s really hard to hide from flyers but I don’t really like the Corvus. Xiphon is a great gap filler for a few armies. Otherwise you’re waiting for turn 2 with a deep strike unit.

 

Yep, Corvus is flying container whereas Xiphon is sophisticated armour killer. I too think that if you need good AT capability and you have the points then Xiphon is the way to go. I also know that Corvus will never be MVP unit but in addition to it's flying container role it can be kitted with weapons that can support whatever I'm planning to do with my army, even help killing heavy tanks. It is this versitality that keeps it at the very core of my army.

[Prot]

Don’t get me wrong, I want the Corvus to be that gap filler but hitting 4’s after moving without a damage modifier is just too penal. This flyer needed machine spirit in a bad way.

 

I still pull it out from time to time and usually regret it. Xiphon is a reliable alternative.

[Moostick]

Hmm...flyers have not worked reliably for me as they can usually kill/cripple only one a turn. They usually have to go in fairly deep, and alone, so they get smites and shot down the next turn.

 

That seems to be the best option though as deepstriking and long range LOS never work because of the amount of bubble wrap and terrain.

 

I guess flyers are the best bet and I just pray it survives a turn.

 

Edit: Hm...actually a whirlwind Scorpius could be a decent option against hive guard. Or have a librarian available to cast psychic barrier on the xiphon.

[Claws and Effect]

I use an allied Scorpius with a Land Speeders Tempest.

 

Datalink Telemetry is a solid Strategem with those two units.

[Moostick]

I use an allied Scorpius with a Land Speeders Tempest.

 

Datalink Telemetry is a solid Strategem with those two units.

The word Whirlwind in Datalink Telemetry strategem is not bolded, so it doesn't refer to the keyword <Whirlwind> and only the regular Whirlwind. I remember people posting having asked FW and them saying it does not affect variants.

[Vel'Cona]

I still pull it out from time to time and usually regret it. Xiphon is a reliable alternative.

 

Assuming I wanted to avoid FW's prices/resin, would a Stormhawk be a reliable alternative in this role?  (This also assumes I'm willing to take an allied C: SM Air Wing/etc.)

[Lemondish]

 

I still pull it out from time to time and usually regret it. Xiphon is a reliable alternative.

 

Assuming I wanted to avoid FW's prices/resin, would a Stormhawk be a reliable alternative in this role?  (This also assumes I'm willing to take an allied C: SM Air Wing/etc.)

 

 

Okay, sorry for the incoming wall of text...but...

 

The Xiphon is about 20 points more than a Stormhawk with las talon and typhoon missile system, which is the only build that approximates the high damage a Xiphon can pump out. Xiphons bring 4 lascannon shots that move and shoot at BS3+, target flyers at BS2+ (effectively BS3+ if they're Hard to Hit), and can spit out another 3 shots at str 6, ap -2, that deal a flat 3 damage. The las talon/typhoon Stormhawk shoots at BS4+, targets flyers at BS3+ (effectively BS4+ if they're Hard to Hit), has half the range, and has 1 fewer wound. On the flipside it can re-roll save rolls of 1s (until they errata that I guess?) and also brings its own str 6 shots that are about 38% as effective as the Xiphon's missile, but are in addition to the other two weapon systems. You do gain flexibility in that they have a lot of extra shots that can act as close range anti-infantry fire alongside the the flexible Typhoon frag missiles, though. 

 

A Stormtalon does manage to fare a wee bit better. It's firing at these artillery targets at BS3+ on the move, so its str 6 shooting from the assault cannons ends up only half as effective as the Xiphon's missiles instead of the measly 38% the Stormhawk's assault cannons end up being. You can hover with it to improve its BS to 2+ against the very things you want them to beat up, though, so you end up gaining a small bit of tactical flexibility there. There's sadly also a long list of other negatives here compared to the Xiphon, though. It's only T6, brings half the lascannons, is less effective against targets with Fly (shoots at BS4+ when on the move), and is only around 40 points cheaper. 

 

I know I ranted a bit there, but it was in service to answering your actual question. I'm getting there, I promise - for its cost, nothing in the astartes flyer list beats the Xiphon for mobility, durability, and accurate long range damage on high T targets. It's a one trick pony but manages to perform that trick really, really well. For Deathwatch, it brings more than just an answer for artillery - it combats everything of high toughness that Deathwatch struggles against. The fact we can bring them as part of a Deathwatch army so they can benefit from strats makes them all the sweeter. A Xiphon will have a really good chance of removing a basilisk a turn if you're able to stack some buffs on it, and it will do so at likely -1 to hit, T7, with 11 wounds, and out ranging a vast majority of the enemy's firepower if you want it to.

 

However, while it does this job super efficiently, the astartes flyers like the Stormhawk and Stormtalon are for the most part going to behave tactically similar. You don't get the extreme range the Xiphon can, but they do have that same mobility to get around the field and threaten those back field artillery units hidden away. So, TL;DR Nothing can come close to matching the Xiphon in this role, but the Stormtalon and Stormhawk can perform it. 

[Vel'Cona]

That's a shame.  Guess it's time to Ebay the pair of Stormhawks I have to buy 1 FW model.  Love those prices! :P

[Lemondish]

That's a shame.  Guess it's time to Ebay the pair of Stormhawks I have to buy 1 FW model.  Love those prices!

 

Just to break down the comparison a bit more and add in the Corvus (and to hopefully highlight that jumping on the Xiphon train is probably not the best idea given past balancing actions), let's assume a Basilisk as our main target here (and why not, it's ubiquitous and fits in great as artillery boogeyman for us). Against this target, a Corvus would be best equipped with Lascannons and Stormstrike, auspex array, and hurricane bolter. The mathhammer shows that it is roughly as efficient as a Stormhawk or a Stormtalon per point, but only when the Corvus is affected by a doctrine stratagem. The talon and hawk don't get that stratagem, but otherwise it's pretty horrid at this role. Likewise, if we're to make this a thought experiments and add in PotMS onto the Corvus just to see what would happen, it becomes only slightly less effective than the Hawk and Talon per point but doesn't need the doctrine to at least keep up with them. So even in this fake scenario using rules that don't exist and keeping within the DW family, the Xiphon is still 30% more effective at this job. That's freakin' HUGE.

 

Which is particularly why I'd caution jumping on the Xiphon bandwagon even though it sounds like I'm trumpeting its value here. What makes me think folks should wait? Two words - Fire Raptor. 

[spacewatch]

Very interesting and acually I was hoping somebody to do the mathhammering for the Corvus too so we can compare. I did the math too and based on your evaluation and what I have estimated I feel now that even PotMS would not make Corvus radically better. I mean typically you manage to shoot just maybe 4-6(-8) shots with lascannons and 4-6(-8) shots with stormsrike missiles before Corvus goes down. That’s only 2-3-(4) hits without PotMS and with PotMS you would get just one max two more hits. That’s not much before wounding and save rolls. How I like to see PotMS is that it just increases accuracy so that with PotMS you have very good chance (~89%) to get at least one hit and ”decent” chance (~44%) to get even two hits compared to shooting without PotMS (75% and 25%). So primary role for Corvus is transport, screen opener, horde shooter, bullet magnet, etc. but you can use it to support units that do tank busting better (Xiphon, Stormtalon, ...) Anyway I’d like very much Corvus to have PotMS and not just because of inproved tank busting efficiency but also because it would make Corvus even better (more hits) at killing horde and small flyers like jetbikes etc. with TAC and rockets.

[Moostick]

I think it's a little unfair to compare the Corvus with the others. In the end, it's still a transport first, and a gunship second. Taking it purely as a gunship would bring up the question of "why?"

 

So it looks like flyers are the largest suggestion. I haven't had much success because they've been poor tradeoffs. Reliably kill 100-130 pts to lose/cripple 240 pts, but maybe combining it with psychic fortress will help. I've only used it against nids, but I think Xiphon would have more success against Guard. Scorpius might be better for nids.

[Lemondish]

Very interesting and acually I was hoping somebody to do the mathhammering for the Corvus too so we can compare. I did the math too and based on your evaluation and what I have estimated I feel now that even PotMS would not make Corvus radically better. I mean typically you manage to shoot just maybe 4-6(-8) shots with lascannons and 4-6(-8) shots with stormsrike missiles before Corvus goes down. That’s only 2-3-(4) hits without PotMS and with PotMS you would get just one max two more hits. That’s not much before wounding and save rolls. How I like to see PotMS is that it just increases accuracy so that with PotMS you have very good chance (~89%) to get at least one hit and ”decent” chance (~44%) to get even two hits compared to shooting without PotMS (75% and 25%). So primary role for Corvus is transport, screen opener, horde shooter, bullet magnet, etc. but you can use it to support units that do tank busting better (Xiphon, Stormtalon, ...) Anyway I’d like very much Corvus to have PotMS and not just because of inproved tank busting efficiency but also because it would make Corvus even better (more hits) at killing horde and small flyers like jetbikes etc. with TAC and rockets.

 

I think it's a little unfair to compare the Corvus with the others. In the end, it's still a transport first, and a gunship second. Taking it purely as a gunship would bring up the question of "why?"

 

So it looks like flyers are the largest suggestion. I haven't had much success because they've been poor tradeoffs. Reliably kill 100-130 pts to lose/cripple 240 pts, but maybe combining it with psychic fortress will help. I've only used it against nids, but I think Xiphon would have more success against Guard. Scorpius might be better for nids.

 

The problem with the Corvus is that it's a transport in an edition where transports are nearly useless, which is why its secondary role as a gunship should be analyzed. Transports in 8th edition are simply not all that important. In earlier editions, you needed transports to get your units in to range otherwise they couldn't shoot, but 8th edition changes have culminated in increased ranges, increased lethality against vehicles, increased charge range, and much more mobile firepower on literally everything. All of these issues combined reduce the need and value of transports. Back in olden times you needed transports to protect you on turns you couldn't shoot - but now being in a transport just means you can't shoot. 

 

Just look at all the examples of people in tournaments who bring transports for purposes outside of transporting things. Rarely do you see Rhinos, Drop Pods, Chimeras, etc....but you might have seen a lot of Stormravens, Wave Serpents, Fire Raptors, or Razorbacks because their secondary roles as sources of firepower are amazing investments for their points regardless of the transport role. Venoms are currently really popular, for example, and this isn't because they're used to get units places - its because they are annoying to kill, pack a lot of firepower, can be spammed even with the rule of 3, and the units inside them can shoot out thus removing the current biggest trade off for transports. Today, transports exist to limit deployment drops, soak overwatch, and block units. There is simply very little value in being transported somewhere at the current points cost.  

 

In short, transports are used to get to a fight - but 40k 8th edition games represent being at the fight right from the beginning. There's right now little value in redeploying. So the reason I mention the secondary role of the Corvus is because if it were efficient enough it might have actually been a valuable addition to a competitive list - as it stands, neither of its roles are better than other options. 

[Zombs]

Xiphon is amazing on paper. Only problem is that if you go second, at least 1 is probably going to die, since you can't hide it. So you are forced to put 2\3 of them and that's a lot of points.

[Lemondish]

Xiphon is amazing on paper. Only problem is that if you go second, at least 1 is probably going to die, since you can't hide it. So you are forced to put 2\3 of them and that's a lot of points.

Not as many points as any other source of 4 lascannons in the DW arsenal, and it tends to be far more durable than those ground options considering it gets -1 to hit. Against guard, that's a huge benefit, so don't forget that.

 

But you're absolutely right, a single Xiphon at 2k points will not be enough. A single anything won't be enough, usually. However, almost any source of anti tank for DW is plagued by points inefficiency, range issues, or los.

 

For non flyer solutions to handling artillery, I did find some success just dropping in Hellblasters in a kill team after clearing out enough of the screen. Until you can get an open spot, use every trick you can to stay in cover or get in combat with screens to protect yourself. It's an uphill battle, but it's doable.

[Vel'Cona]

 

Which is particularly why I'd caution jumping on the Xiphon bandwagon even though it sounds like I'm trumpeting its value here. What makes me think folks should wait? Two words - Fire Raptor.

 

This definitely broke a few hearts locally once the CA dropped.  The Vulture was another one that caused serious calamity among the disposable income-blessed around here, but I was one of the first guys warning: "Those points costs won't stick.  Be careful . . . " and I'm feeling much of that with the Xiphon.  Given their track record, CA 18 will probably land in Sept or so, which means those expensive Xiphon(s) will end up shelf warmers when GW's watchful eye lands on them.

 

That being said, we can't argue the effectiveness quotient at the key roles DW needs from its allies.  Outside of the Flyer matrix, however, I feel that our best answer may just be allying in our own artillery.  IG Battalions are the "new black" for most army's CP generation at this point anyway, so what's the harm in budgeting in another 300 or so points for our own counter-batteries? :P

[Lemondish]

That being said, we can't argue the effectiveness quotient at the key roles DW needs from its allies.  Outside of the Flyer matrix, however, I feel that our best answer may just be allying in our own artillery.  IG Battalions are the "new black" for most army's CP generation at this point anyway, so what's the harm in budgeting in another 300 or so points for our own counter-batteries?

 

That's a great point! Let the artillery slug it out. Or use that artillery to clear the way for a kill team to silence them quickly. 

 

It also manages to provide a nice solution to our T8 woes. I've been relying on a pair of Leman Russ tank commanders for that job currently, and while I would absolutely love to paint up and enjoy those Xiphons, I'm in the process of planning a trip to Vegas next month and my honeymoon in December, so I don't really have the disposable income for what might amount to a month of really solid play with them. After all, with how slow I am with my hobby painting, I'd very conservatively guess a month for prep time 

[Xisor]

Speaking of Xiphons, do the Dark Angels or Space Wolf flyers add any utility in that realm? Or are they still quasi-equal with what's available from the main Marine Codex?

 

(I ask as I think doing them up in DW colours would be a lot of fun.)

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The space wolf flyers are ok, but they're really expensive points wise.

[SnakeChisler]

Best tactic is to push forward and kill all thier infantry, keep your squads small enough to duck and dive through cover.

 

We've Dread options as well I'm currently looking at a leviathan and against multiple tank threats just charge it and try shut it down having DS is a real boon, the other Dread I've looked at is the deredeo

[Lemondish]

Speaking of Xiphons, do the Dark Angels or Space Wolf flyers add any utility in that realm? Or are they still quasi-equal with what's available from the main Marine Codex?

 

(I ask as I think doing them up in DW colours would be a lot of fun.)

 

They certainly would be fun. Based on the numbers, stay as far away as you can from the Nephilim and Dark Talon. They're nearly as bad at this job as a moving Corvus. They have roles elsewhere, but for artillery hunting you wouldn't want to rely on them. 

 

Equipped with the best weapons for this job, the Stormfang, the Stormwolf, and a bonus look at the Stormraven seem to output values equivalent to that totally fictional Corvus I described above with PotMS (which it doesn't actually get), and auspex, and a doctrine. This means each of these three options end up being the best non-Xiphon flyers to perform this job. They're all transports too, but are each individually pretty expensive and you'll probably want them to be transporting something. This all just makes me super sad at how bad the Corvus is in comparison, especially since it is entirely possible the Space Wolf units will see points decreases once their codex comes around. For example, a Corvus needs a pretty substantial points decrease and PotMS to be as valuable as a Stormraven. 

 

The space wolf flyers are ok, but they're really expensive points wise.

 

Yep, this is true. They're difficult to spread around in an army that's already strapped for points. They're the most efficient point per damage flyer options for this role by a pretty decent margin compared to the other options, but you can't really add many of them into a force without really feeling the bite. 

 

Best tactic is to push forward and kill all thier infantry, keep your squads small enough to duck and dive through cover.

 

We've Dread options as well I'm currently looking at a leviathan and against multiple tank threats just charge it and try shut it down having DS is a real boon, the other Dread I've looked at is the deredeo

 

Yeah, a Leviathan dropping in from the Teleportarium can do the job too. But it's also a concern I have - FW units that are overly represented seem to be the first to get spanked in points reductions. Thankfully you can usually get away with just a single Lev compared to wanting redundancy with things like the Xiphon, so the real money cost isn't as high. 

 

It's important to also remember that the enemy will do their best to screen out deep strike for as long as humanly possible. Sometimes you won't have a spot to drop your large dreadnought into until Turn 3, and by then those 108 point Basilisks have rained hell down on your face for quite a long while. Probably one of the better solutions, though, since the task is pretty straight forward - punch the denial bubble in a few places until you can get an angle on the artillery. 

 

The deredeo I feel is better in a Primaris heavy gunline with its 5+ invuln bubble. 

[Xisor]

Neat;that tallies with what I'd been hoping.

 

As the mention has been made about Guard being a useful ally for CP/return-fire of artillery, is there a two birds/one stone opportunity there - a Valk or two with a bunch of cheap bodies inside? Or is that still high cost for little (reliable) return?