Trying to set up a pure balanced (competitive) army

[Drizzt79]

So here is the list...I would kindly ask for your opinions

 

Do you see any weaknesses?

 

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Deathwatch) [113 PL, 1999pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Use Beta Rules

 

+ HQ +

 

Watch Captain [7 PL, 101pts]: Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack, Plasma pistol

 

Watch Master [7 PL, 130pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessors [5 PL, 101pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

. Intercessor: Bolt Pistol, Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt Pistol, Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt Pistol, Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt Pistol, Bolt rifle

. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Bolt rifle, Chainsword

 

Intercessors [15 PL, 271pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher

. Hellblaster: Bolt Pistol, Plasma incinerator

. Hellblaster: Bolt Pistol, Plasma incinerator

. Hellblaster: Bolt Pistol, Plasma incinerator

. Hellblaster: Bolt Pistol, Plasma incinerator

. Hellblaster: Bolt Pistol, Plasma incinerator

. Intercessor: Bolt Pistol, Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt Pistol, Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt Pistol, Bolt rifle

. Intercessor: Bolt Pistol, Bolt rifle

. Intercessor Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Bolt rifle

 

Veterans [14 PL, 228pts]

. Terminator

. . Power Sword and Stormbolter: Power sword, Storm Bolter

. Veteran: Boltgun, Storm shield

. Veteran: Boltgun, Storm shield

. Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon

. Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon

. Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon

. Watch Sergeant: Boltgun, Storm shield

 

Veterans [11 PL, 116pts]

. Veteran: Chainsword, Storm Bolter

. Veteran: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Veteran: Chainsword, Storm Bolter

. Veteran: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Veteran: Boltgun, Storm shield

. Watch Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm Bolter

 

+ Elites +

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 202pts]: Heavy Onlsaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

. 2x Stormbolters: 2x Storm Bolter

 

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 165pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Bikers [5 PL, 99pts]

. Biker: Power maul, Twin boltgun

. Biker w/ Teleport Homer: Power sword, Twin boltgun

. Deathwatch Biker Sergeant: Storm Bolter, Twin boltgun

 

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]

. Inceptor

. . Two Assault Bolters: 2x Assault bolter

. Inceptor

. . Two Assault Bolters: 2x Assault bolter

. Inceptor Sergeant

. . Two Assault Bolters: 2x Assault bolter

 

+ Flyer +

 

Corvus Blackstar [12 PL, 251pts]: Hurricane bolter, Infernum Halo-Launcher, Twin assault cannon

. 2x Stormstrike Missile Launchers: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 128pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm Bolter, Twin lascannon

 

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm Bolter

 

++ Total: [113 PL, 1999pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

[Lemondish]

What's the Rhino for?

[Drizzt79]

What's the Rhino for?

For the veterans 116pts....advance, pop smoke, survive, unload

[Rodrick]

here's my two cents..

 

im not fan of 

 

+Redemtor dread : beautiful model  mediocre on the table , with the regular deathwatch marine should be enough against hordes also  very expensive point wise

+rhino: waste of points just use the teleport stratagem

+razorback: same as rhino but worse

+inceptors: they throw a lot of shots but they are expensive in a already expensive codex, glass canons, fire magnet etc,  dont benefit from special issue ammunition 

 

big fan of:

 

ven dread lass ml :  cheap , hits 2+ , feel no pain. awesome

corvus: with the new faq , halo laucher provide an extra defense againt flyers, all the broken units in other codexes are flyers

primaris:  intersessor + hellblasters are a beast, very flexible

[Lemondish]

 

What's the Rhino for?

For the veterans 116pts....advance, pop smoke, survive, unload

 

 

Then what's the razorback for..? I'm seeing a lot of transports here that are either under filled (that lowers efficiency) or don't have a clear purpose. 

[vigitant]

Both the Redemptor and Corvus are a lot of points for not enough dakka. 

 

Biggest problem i see, though, is your command points.  5+3 is not enough.

Pure DW isn't going to be the most competitive build, but if youre restricting yourself to only DW, fit in another battalion.  The extra 5 CP is needed. 

Better(for competitive) would be to focus your DW into a potent force doing what we do best.  Helblaster KT's on the deep strike are nasty, Frag Cannons guarded by a couple shields and a PS/SB termie.  4 aggressors and an inceptor in a KT.  Aim for a potent DS drop with HQ support.  One battalion there.  Then pick 2 of the three best soup options:  Guard battalion(basilisks are a great throw in), Slamaguinius battalion with scouts, or 3 banana bikes.
A guard battalion with a couple basilisks and a blood angel battalion with 2 jump captains and scouts gets you 18 CP before relic spends, as well as so much CP regen you'll never run out across 6 game turns.

 

If youre going monocodex:

The inceptors are too much to run solo.  They pack enough of a punch for enough points to attract fire, and they arent tough enough to survive it.  One in a fortis killteam isnt bad, though.
The rhino's somewhat superflous with our strategem.  Theres a decent case for lazbacks. 

If only the Corvus had PotMS, it'd be okay.  But it doesn't.  We have heavy hitting units, but DW can be tabled by some armies.  Dropping 1/8 of your force into a flier makes this much easier on armies that can do this.  Three armies that have the mobility and firepower to wipe our troops of the board, Dark Eldar, Ynnari, and Banana bikes, are the same broken fliers the Corvus is good at not dieing to.  Unfortunately, they can just ignore it.  It can't score, and doesnt pack enough of a punch to be a threat.

The redemptor's mediocre at a job Deathwatch vets and primawatch are superior at.

The bikes have a job and they do it well.  I'd suggest switching the power maul to the sgt and giving a chainsword to the 3rd guy.

Get 2 more HQ's, 2 more troops, and make a second battalion.  A jump librarian solves all sorts of problems.  A second watchmaster is never bad.

Also, youre dropping 100 pts on a babysitter aura with a plasma pistol.  It's absolutely worth the extra points to give him a thunderhammer.  Opens up a lot of options, and provides solid countercharge for the unit he drops with.  Might of Heroes on a TH jump captain solves quite a lot of problems.

[Lemondish]

If only the Corvus had PotMS, it'd be okay.  But it doesn't.  We have heavy hitting units, but DW can be tabled by some armies.  Dropping 1/8 of your force into a flier makes this much easier on armies that can do this.  Three armies that have the mobility and firepower to wipe our troops of the board, Dark Eldar, Ynnari, and Banana bikes, are the same broken fliers the Corvus is good at not dieing to.  Unfortunately, they can just ignore it.  It can't score, and doesnt pack enough of a punch to be a threat.

 

Which is why it should serve its role as a transport that protects the units that those three armies are perfect at removing. 

[Rodrick]

i think corvus has a lot of dakka , hurricane bolter, twin Assault canon, two missiles  and the bomb drop thingy.  

 

can transport troops all over the table in one turn.

 

and flyers only hit corvus on 5+ or 6+

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Personally I think the redemptions are a great choice and are lethal when paired with a watch master, add in a mixed squad of 10"Primaris with 4 aggressors and 1 Intercessor and your laughing, the unit is effectively a battering ram and is also a great distraction for what is not huge points.

[Zombs]

Both the Redemptor and Corvus are a lot of points for not enough dakka. 

 

Biggest problem i see, though, is your command points.  5+3 is not enough.

Pure DW isn't going to be the most competitive build, but if youre restricting yourself to only DW, fit in another battalion.  The extra 5 CP is needed. 

Better(for competitive) would be to focus your DW into a potent force doing what we do best.  Helblaster KT's on the deep strike are nasty, Frag Cannons guarded by a couple shields and a PS/SB termie.  4 aggressors and an inceptor in a KT.  Aim for a potent DS drop with HQ support.  One battalion there.  Then pick 2 of the three best soup options:  Guard battalion(basilisks are a great throw in), Slamaguinius battalion with scouts, or 3 banana bikes.

A guard battalion with a couple basilisks and a blood angel battalion with 2 jump captains and scouts gets you 18 CP before relic spends, as well as so much CP regen you'll never run out across 6 game turns.

 

If youre going monocodex:

The inceptors are too much to run solo.  They pack enough of a punch for enough points to attract fire, and they arent tough enough to survive it.  One in a fortis killteam isnt bad, though.

The rhino's somewhat superflous with our strategem.  Theres a decent case for lazbacks. 

If only the Corvus had PotMS, it'd be okay.  But it doesn't.  We have heavy hitting units, but DW can be tabled by some armies.  Dropping 1/8 of your force into a flier makes this much easier on armies that can do this.  Three armies that have the mobility and firepower to wipe our troops of the board, Dark Eldar, Ynnari, and Banana bikes, are the same broken fliers the Corvus is good at not dieing to.  Unfortunately, they can just ignore it.  It can't score, and doesnt pack enough of a punch to be a threat.

The redemptor's mediocre at a job Deathwatch vets and primawatch are superior at.

The bikes have a job and they do it well.  I'd suggest switching the power maul to the sgt and giving a chainsword to the 3rd guy.

Get 2 more HQ's, 2 more troops, and make a second battalion.  A jump librarian solves all sorts of problems.  A second watchmaster is never bad.

Also, youre dropping 100 pts on a babysitter aura with a plasma pistol.  It's absolutely worth the extra points to give him a thunderhammer.  Opens up a lot of options, and provides solid countercharge for the unit he drops with.  Might of Heroes on a TH jump captain solves quite a lot of problems.

 

OT question: How are the basilisk doing for you? I was looking at them, and they are very cheap for what they do, but they also have only T6 and BS 4+. Do you think they are worth it or better just stick with lascannons dreadnought?

 

Btw I always use a BA batallion with Slamguinius, Mephiston and 15 scouts. It gives really everything you need in DW.

[Mobius0288]

The list is pretty good but where is your watchmaster going in all this? It looks like your Capt is deep striking, possibly with the inceptors, but you've got plenty of things that could really benefit from those re-rolls: Razorback (Lascannon AND Hunter killer missile), Redemptor dread, intercessors w/ hellblasters.

 

I think vehicle/flyer armies will be your biggest weakness. You have enough lascannons and plasma to do the job, but the -1's to hit will take a toll after a while. Horde armies/units won't be so bad as long as you focus fire from your blackstar on them. Psychers will be a problem for you via Eldar and Thousand Son's.

[Rodrick]

Personally I think the redemptions are a great choice and are lethal when paired with a watch master, add in a mixed squad of 10"Primaris with 4 aggressors and 1 Intercessor and your laughing, the unit is effectively a battering ram and is also a great distraction for what is not huge points.

 

well yes, redemptors benefit the most from watch master aura, but still its only 24'' threat range from S5 AP1 shots,

 

thats not our weakness, more like high T multi W units

 

imho

[Lemondish]

 

Personally I think the redemptions are a great choice and are lethal when paired with a watch master, add in a mixed squad of 10"Primaris with 4 aggressors and 1 Intercessor and your laughing, the unit is effectively a battering ram and is also a great distraction for what is not huge points.

 

well yes, redemptors benefit the most from watch master aura, but still its only 24'' threat range from S5 AP1 shots,

 

thats not our weakness, more like high T multi W units

 

imho

 

 

To clarify, I think you mean high T multi W vehicles, right? 

[Moostick]

 

 

thats not our weakness, more like high T multi W units

 

imho

 

To clarify, I think you mean high T multi W vehicles, right?

Tau heavy battlesuits, Tyranids and Daemons would like a word with you. Even our poison rounds can only do so much against the high saves.

 

Edit: I guess it should actually be low saves, haha.

[vigitant]

 

OT question: How are the basilisk doing for you? I was looking at them, and they are very cheap for what they do, but they also have only T6 and BS 4+. Do you think they are worth it or better just stick with lascannons dreadnought?

 

Btw I always use a BA batallion with Slamguinius, Mephiston and 15 scouts. It gives really everything you need in DW.

 

 

I haven't used them much myself, but ive played against them and seen them played enough.  They provide indirect fire that can threat anything, with enough shots.  for not a lot of points.  1-2 basilisks behind Los and/or on the back corner are pretty much immune to enemy fire except from other basilisks.

[Rodrick]

 

 

Personally I think the redemptions are a great choice and are lethal when paired with a watch master, add in a mixed squad of 10"Primaris with 4 aggressors and 1 Intercessor and your laughing, the unit is effectively a battering ram and is also a great distraction for what is not huge points.

 

well yes, redemptors benefit the most from watch master aura, but still its only 24'' threat range from S5 AP1 shots,

 

thats not our weakness, more like high T multi W units

 

imho

 

 

To clarify, I think you mean high T multi W vehicles, right? 

 

sure, vehicles ,  like nemesis dread knghts, dreads, flyers , transports like 80% of high T multi wound units

 

but also good saves   it means nothing wounding 2+ if the enemy unit saves with 2+

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

thats not our weakness, more like high T multi W units

 

imho

 

To clarify, I think you mean high T multi W vehicles, right?

Tau heavy battlesuits, Tyranids and Daemons would like a word with you. Even our poison rounds can only do so much against the high saves.

 

Edit: I guess it should actually be low saves, haha.

Weight of fire, my man. The more dice you get into the funnel early on, the better. You'd be surprised at how effective the +1 to wound strat can be for SIA bolt weapons with vengeance rounds. But the examples you gave all have access to invulns. That means there's actually no way outside of mortal wounds to negate their armour save no matter what you bring from any army.

 

Massive volume of fire that can wound on 2s will overwhelm them to the point where they'll be laid low by a thousand cuts. That is exactly what DW can uniquely achieve. Where DW struggles is vehicles, but even then massive volume of fire with +1 to wound, rerolling all misses, rerolling 1s to wound, and at least AP -2 with vengeance rounds can do an awful lot of damage in a pinch. The problem, as always, is that an army like this with so few models needs to take very special care of their target priority. SIA Stormbolters are a valid option against a vehicle - something that isn't true for any other astartes force. But that will rarely be the best choice.

 

sure, vehicles , like nemesis dread knghts, dreads, flyers , transports like 80% of high T multi wound units

 

but also good saves it means nothing wounding 2+ if the enemy unit saves with 2+

And very rarely is AP going to help because they have invulnerable saves, so actually wounding on 2+ is a huge benefit that NOBODY else brings.

[Moostick]

I agree SIA makes them more effective against them, but being less of a weakness doesn't make it not a weakness.

[Lemondish]

I agree SIA makes them more effective against them, but being less of a weakness doesn't make it not a weakness.

I simply don't agree that it's a weakness, except in the case of vehicles. But I suppose we've beaten that subject to a pulp at this point haha

[Duke Danse Macabre]

 

 

Personally I think the redemptions are a great choice and are lethal when paired with a watch master, add in a mixed squad of 10"Primaris with 4 aggressors and 1 Intercessor and your laughing, the unit is effectively a battering ram and is also a great distraction for what is not huge points.

 

 

well yes, redemptors benefit the most from watch master aura, but still its only 24'' threat range from S5 AP1 shots,

 

thats not our weakness, more like high T multi W units

 

imho

 

To clarify, I think you mean high T multi W vehicles, right?

You are right but try and remember that each gets effectively 18 heavy Bolter shots plus extras, also they are still strong enough to tear apart a tank with ease, no reason this unit has to be sat back.

[Drizzt79]

 

 

 

Personally I think the redemptions are a great choice and are lethal when paired with a watch master, add in a mixed squad of 10"Primaris with 4 aggressors and 1 Intercessor and your laughing, the unit is effectively a battering ram and is also a great distraction for what is not huge points.

 

well yes, redemptors benefit the most from watch master aura, but still its only 24'' threat range from S5 AP1 shots,

 

thats not our weakness, more like high T multi W units

 

imho

 

To clarify, I think you mean high T multi W vehicles, right?

You are right but try and remember that each gets effectively 18 heavy Bolter shots plus extras, also they are still strong enough to tear apart a tank with ease, no reason this unit has to be sat back.

Actually I was thinking to deepstrike the redemptor close enough (within 24”) to the enemy, with a fortis killteam, and the watch master.

Perhaps a librarian could cast might of heroes on the redemptor to bring T an S to 8, just to improve the survivability

[Duke Danse Macabre]

 

 

 

 

Personally I think the redemptions are a great choice and are lethal when paired with a watch master, add in a mixed squad of 10"Primaris with 4 aggressors and 1 Intercessor and your laughing, the unit is effectively a battering ram and is also a great distraction for what is not huge points.

 

well yes, redemptors benefit the most from watch master aura, but still its only 24'' threat range from S5 AP1 shots,

 

thats not our weakness, more like high T multi W units

 

imho

 

To clarify, I think you mean high T multi W vehicles, right?

You are right but try and remember that each gets effectively 18 heavy Bolter shots plus extras, also they are still strong enough to tear apart a tank with ease, no reason this unit has to be sat back.

Actually I was thinking to deepstrike the redemptor close enough (within 24”) to the enemy, with a fortis killteam, and the watch master.

Perhaps a librarian could cast might of heroes on the redemptor to bring T an S to 8, just to improve the survivability

Personally I think it's biggest survivability comes from its cost, if you are thinking about leviathans remember they are stronger but cost almost double, two mid range dreads with impressive fire power and 13 wounds is still going to scrap 1 leviathan.