Allying Thousand Sons and Tzeentch CSM

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Ok guys, I'd appreaciate some feedback on this because I dont really know the best way to go about it.

 

The bottom line is, for years I've had a dedicated Tzeentch (Daemons and CSM) army. I own ZERO basic CSM, my basic troop are all Rubric Marines and those were my only infantry for years.  After a few christmas presents and hobby projects my army expanded quite a lot and then fast forward to 8th ed and my army has been cut in half.  I'm pretty heavily committed to both halves through the efforts in my conversions and ongoing projects so I'm keeping it all. I dont really play often enough to be constantly be reaffirming my knowledge of the rules though, specifically army composition and construction.  So my question is this...

 

What are the pros and cons of allying my two chaos armies and how would I best do it?  I think that at least some of the codecies have benefits for the army, providing all the formations are comprised entirely of units that come from the same codex? on the other hand I think that you can build formations with things that share the same keyword for the benefit of the command points?

 

as you can see I'm totally unsure of myself but then that's why im here looking to the dark powers for some guidance. 

 

Thanks everyone

[Tokugawa]

Codex:CSM provide few to zero decent Tzeentch units. They were all "moved" to Codex:Thousand sons.

 

Based on the models you own now, detachements from Codex:Chaos demons and Codex:Tsons may be what you need.

[Krakendoomcool]

I'm in exactly the same situation and am considering getting codex CSM.

 

The Deathguard codex doesn't have a lot of my models in it.

 

What units are you trying to use?

 

Obliterators

Defiler

Possessed

[Kite Senet]

I'm not sure I understand where CSM fits in. It sounds like you have Thousand Sons and Tzeentch Daemons, but do you have units from Codex: CSM that you're trying to fit into your army? And if so, what?

 

I would see three major ways to do this:

• Slap them all together in a big Tzeentch detachment. Easiest, but it costs you the most options (you won't get all the toys from any of the factions; namely if I recall correctly you'll miss out on Brotherhood of Sorcerers, which will REALLY hurt since you'll have to deal with the new Big FAQ Smite rule then).
• Quarantine them to their own detachments. This likely maximizes the CP and lets you have all of the stratagems and special abilities you have, but may place constraints on what you can actually fit into your list, and if you do have CSM you'll probably need to find some way to get those troop slots filled in.
• Only list the Thousand Sons (or CSM) in their own detachment, with no Daemons in the list at all, save points for summoning, and summon the Daemons as you need them. I like this one the best, but only because it sounds super fluffy and fun; it's probably entirely inferior to deploying the Daemons from the start. I wouldn't know, though, because my T-Sons sorcerers are more wary of relying on daemons than yours seem to be (that is, I don't play with daemons).

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

@Tokugawa

Sorry, I should have specified that I'm not a super competitive player so I'm not THAT worried about my units being rubbish. To clarify... Ive played more than one game that included a pyrovore BEFORE 8th ed... to reclarify... not in my Tzeentch army.

 

@Krakendoomcool

I thought this might interest you too.

 

@Kite Senet

Thanks so much for this, thats the kind of thing I was looking for. Basically I dont like missing out on my goodies, so I dont really want to go Unbound (although I have played that way in the past) and miss out on things, for example Brotherhood of Sorcerers.  I also have a small Daemon army (Screamers, horrors, chariot)

 

So this is my situation, I have a bunch of chaos models, I dont want to get rid of any.  As Krakendoomcool pointed out, a lot of them are Not in the Thousand Sons (Deathguard for him) codex.  I think about the only think I have that I cant take in a CSM army is Ahriman maybe? not sure if he is in there, but basically I dont have Magnus (yet) or things like Tzaangors.  The things I already have and would like to be able run with my Thousand sons are...

 

Oblitirators

Defiler

Possessed

Warp Talons

Chosen

Dark Apostle

... and a Slannesh Daemon Prince/Keeper of Secrets (thats... another story)

 

There are other units I would quite like to have too, but as I dont actually own those yet I wont bother listing those things.  I'm not too worried about filling detachments too much in terms of HQ and troop as I have than 10+ sorcerers, 24 Rubric and 40 cultists.  This all came up when my friend offered for me to have a game, and wanted play my Thousand Sons.  I start roughing something out on battlescribe and forgot how much stuff was missing from the codex. I was hoping to include my possessed as I've been working on them quite a lot recently. I mainly got the possessed as an interresting melee addition to my army, the Warp Talons were a christmas gift, something else I wanted for the same reason... all of a sudden my fun melee options were ripped out of my specialist army.

 

So yeah, I mostly play for fun, but I don't want to intentionally cripple my army and I dont play often enough to just pluck all the necessary information from the Core, Thousand Sons, CSM and Daemon Rules.

 

Thanks for the help so far everyone.

[Marshlands]

The obliterators, defiler, possessed and talons are all daemons and work well with your tzeentch daemon buffs and TS psykers for warptime and prescience.

 

If you have 3 HS a spearhead would work

[Dr_Ruminahui]

While making things more complicated, the current rules actually make it easier to mash armies together, as there are many formations where no troop units are needed at all.  That means you can leave your rubric marines in your thousand sons list (where likely they will benefit most) and then put as much of your chaos marine stuff into whatever detachment they fit best into.

 

I too am a battlescribe user, and the way it does detachments isn't very friendly for people who are just trying to field as much of their stuff as they can.  My suggestion would be write a list of what units you have (not point costs, or equipment, or number of models - just the unit name, like you have done above) and what "slot" they are (so, troop, HQ, elite, etc.).  Then pick up your rule book, and determine what detachments best fit the units you want to field.  Once you've figured that out, then open battlescribe and develop your list in detail.

 

Or, at the vary least, have the rulebook open to the detachments page and beside you while you are using battlescribe.

 

One last thing is, if you want to field all your models of the same time, you will likely need some more chaos space marine HQ choices - one thing about the way detachments work is they all need one or more HQ choices, which can add up quickly if you are using multiple detachments.

[Closet Skeleton]

8th ed detachments explanation.

 

You have the core detachments that need troops choices and give lots of CP. That's either a Battalion that needs 2 HQs 3 troops or the brigade which needs a filled out old school force org chart and space marine armies need to be very careful to achieve that one. You also have a patrol which is one HQ and 1 troops and then a few open slots for other stuff but grants no command points.

 

Then you have the specialised ones that need a single HQ and 3 slots of the same role.

 

Last you have the auxiliary that contains any one thing and penalizes you (except for the Lord of War version which just gives no benefit but the extra slot).

 

So the easiest way to use a mixed army out of an old miniature collection is a battalion of one codex and a patrol of another codex. If you have 3 heavy support or 3 elites you want from the Chaos marine book then you can use one of the specialised detachments and get a CP.

 

If you just want to put some daemons into you army than a patrol will let you take horrors and some other stuff as long as you can find a HQ for them.

 

Though if you have 40 cultist models and 4+ sorcerers you could just take a renegade marine battalion and a thousand sons battalion, that would get you 10 command points and be better than a renegade army with elite choice rubrics.

 

Thanks so much for this, thats the kind of thing I was looking for. Basically I dont like missing out on my goodies, so I dont really want to go Unbound (although I have played that way in the past) and miss out on things, for example Brotherhood of Sorcerers.  I also have a small Daemon army (Screamers, horrors, chariot)

 

You can't play unbound in 8th ed matched play, an 8th ed unbound army has no detachments or command points and is open/narrative play (power level games) only. A Chaos army is technically 'bound'.

 

Just clarifying how the term unbound is used in 8th because nobody else seems to know.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

@Dr_Ruminahui

Yeah, battlescribe is really useful it a lot of respects but the initial army build is so unfriendly. I dont know why you cant build your army, and THEN select a detatchment template for it to be able to tell you if its valid. Its so annoying because I cant remember most of the detachment lay outs... but I can never remember what they are called, so I have to go through starting several lists just to figure that out... and then I have to make two lists if I want too detachments. I feel like there must be a better way of doing it, but what do I know, I didn't make a super popular inter-wargaming army builder.

 

@Closet Skeleton

Thanks, I mean I do understand the difference between matched, narrative and open play, but its nice to see the detachment use from someone else's perspective.  We like to use all of the rules but as I mentioned, we play quite relaxed games. Since 8th came out we have only ever used power levels. I know that means you can do crazy on equipment but we normally play WYSIWYG for the models and we don't have any uber competitive power gamers in our group.

 

I would just like to clarify one thing about the detatments which is what always gets me and I'm not sure how many armies it applies to.

 

So, lets talk about this in terms of matched play (as its irrelivent in the other styles).

 

you get benifits from following restrictions, the more restricted the more benifits (roughly). you gain cp for detatchments and other bonuses for having those filled a certain way.  You can build a detatchment using any models that share a keyword right? I feel like there are 3 levels of conforming to restrictions in order to gain benifits.

 

1.everything shares a keyword in the detatchment

2.everything in the detachment is from the same codex

3.All models in all detachments is from the same codex.

 

Now I haven't played in ages and I haven't had time to go through all the rule books checking this stuff so I'm not very fluent with all this stuff. I just feel like at different times I have seen that these things affect army rules.  I think the biggest one I noticed was the "all models in all detachments" one. IT was Ad mech or something and I realised I wouldn't gain something (like... canticles or something) if I didn't have a full Admech army... which meant no allying my Grey Knights, inquisition or Imperial Knights in.

 

Im really sorry if I seem very ignorant of the rules at the moment. I need to make some time to do my rules homework!

 

I'll have a think about building a cool Chaos army and then maybe I could post it up here for composition breakdown? not so much... "don't take that thing, its awful".... but... "you know if you took that out, and took this instead, you could get 2 more CP" or "you know if you do that then that special rule wont be active" sort of deal?

 

Once again, I'm really grateful for you guys taking the time to talk to me about this, I feel like you have probably all had this conversation a lot before.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I feel the same as you do in relation to Battlescribe's usability issues, but like I said having your rulebook open to the detachments page while you sort things out will work wonders, and means that you don't have to memorize the names of all the various formations.

 

 

Now, in regard to the various types of army construction you stated above, for chaos you really only need to worry about #1 and #2, as the most restrictive special rules in the Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Demons, Death Guard and Thousand Sons codexes depend on you fielding all units from one codex and each having the same keyword.

 

 

So, for the Chaos Space Marines codex, you will want to have everything be from that codex and share the same [LEGION] keyword, as most special rules trigger off that keyword.  The [MARK of CHAOS] keyword is also important, but isn't something that all units need to share unless you have chosen a LEGION that requires a specific MARK - so, Emperor's Children (which requires MARK OF SLANESH) and World Eaters (which requires MARK OF KHORNE) - with other LEGIONs you can simply give units whatever mark gives you the best stratagems for that unit.

 

 

Likewise for Thousand Sons and Death Guard, except both of those require a specific MARK (TZEENCH and NURGLE, respectively).

 

 

Chaos demons are a bit different, in that they get a special bonus if the detachment is all the same MARK.

 

 

As far as I'm aware, for Chaos there are no rules that require the entire army to be of the same keyword.  So no need to do that unless you want to.  That said, it is thematic to have your entire army share, for example, the TZEENCH keyword.

 

 

 

So:

 

 

Regardless of codex, you get a free artifact on your warlord from your warlord's codex, regardless of what else is in the warlord's detachment.  Note, some artifacts have additional requirements, but these only require that the equipped model have the appropriate keyword, not the whole detachment.

 

To get stratagems from the Chaos Marines Codex, the Death Guard Codex, the Thousand Sons Codex, or the Chaos Demons Codex, you only need a detachment that consists solely of units from that codex.  So, if your army has 1 detachment that is all from the Thousand Sons codex, 1 that is all from the Chaos Marines codex, and 1 that's all from the demon codex, you would have access to stratagems from all 3 codexes.  Note that you could use the stratagems for more artifacts for each codex - so, for example, in the 3 detachment army just described, you could have 7 artifacts (1 free + 2 each from each codex), though it would cost you 9 CP to do so.

 

To have access to Legion traits, in addition to be all from one codex, all the units in that detachment must have the same LEGION keyword.  Likewise, to benefit from daemonic loci, all units in a daemon codex detachment must have the same MARK keyword.

 

And that's about it.

 

And note, you can mix units sharing the same keyword (except if that keyword is Chaos) in the same detachment, you just lose the benefits of having a mono-codex detachment.  It may still be worthwhile if the units in that detachment don't really benefit from your LEGION keyword - and example is that its common for Death Guard players to have a detachment of Death Guard, a detachment of Demon codex nurgle demons, and a mixed detachment with a Chaos marine Demon Prince and nurglings and/or plague crawlers (all of sharing the NURGLE keyword), as it gives extra CPs, the quite slow Death Guard codex access to the warp time psychic power on the marine demon prince, and nurglings and plague crawlers don't really benefit form the Death Guard LEGION trait.

 

Hope that helps.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

  I think the biggest one I noticed was the "all models in all detachments" one. IT was Ad mech or something and I realised I wouldn't gain something (like... canticles or something) if I didn't have a full Admech army... which meant no allying my Grey Knights, inquisition or Imperial Knights in.

 

I'm pretty sure you've misread there. Canticles is based off detachments, there's nothing in the game that penalizes you for taking allies like that. Otherwise Mechanicum knights wouldn't have their stratagem that gives them canticles since they aren't actually Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

I guess technically you need an entire Admech army for all units to be benefiting from canticles but that's no different from needing an entire army of troops choices for all units to benefit from objective secured (actually impossible outside of Custodes and Leman Russ armies since otherwise you need HQs).

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Thanks Dr_Ruminahui and Closet Skeleton, yeah this is really helpful. I just had another look at the Ad mech book and I was totally mistaken. So I don't have to worry about losing rules due to not committing the entire army to a codex.  So it really is as simple as Just writing myself a little easy access Cheat Sheet of Detatchments and their CP bonus/cost... then making sure (if I want to keep army rules) I dedicate each detatchment to a codex.

 

So the only rule my Thousand Sons could lose is Brotherhood of Sorcerer and Disciples of Tzeentch, which only effect my Psykers and Troops... so I could lend any non troops/psykers to the Chaos Detachments to make them valid... oh but I guess the stratagems would then only effect the Thousand Sons detatchment.

 

What are the Benefits in the Chaos Codex, like what does having the Mark of Tzeentch give the units and what army wide rules would effect that detatchment?

[techsoldaten]

Question: are Thousand Sons allowed to access Forgeworld units?

 

I've never seen it discussed. A Tzeentch Decimator would actually be a great reason for a CSM detachment.

[Gederas]

Question: are Thousand Sons allowed to access Forgeworld units?

 

I've never seen it discussed. A Tzeentch Decimator would actually be a great reason for a CSM detachment.

From the Imperial Armour: Forces of Chaos FAQ:

 

"Q: Are there any restrictions on which Legion I can choose when replacing the Faction Keyword on datasheets within this book?

A: Yes, as follows:

[...]

You can only choose for a unit to be from the Thousand Sons Legion if it has the Tzeentch keyword, or if it has the keyword and you choose to replace that with Tzeentch. You cannot choose for a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Thousand Sons.

[...]

Otherwise, any of the units in this book can be from any Legion"

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

That looks to me that if the unit can have the Tzeentch Keyword, it can be taken by Thousand Sons. Im assuming those exception cant/dont have any of the gods keywords?

[Closet Skeleton]

So the only rule my Thousand Sons could lose is Brotherhood of Sorcerer and Disciples of Tzeentch, which only effect my Psykers and Troops... so I could lend any non troops/psykers to the Chaos Detachments to make them valid... oh but I guess the stratagems would then only effect the Thousand Sons detatchment.

 

What are the Benefits in the Chaos Codex, like what does having the Mark of Tzeentch give the units and what army wide rules would effect that detatchment?

 

Its a bit more complicated.

 

Chaos Daemons stratagems only work in things with the Daemon faction keyword, which thanks to the FAQ is sometimes the same as the regular Daemon keyword and sometimes not.  So much for FAQs making things clear.

 

Thousand Sons stratagems only work on Thousand Sons keyword units.

 

Chaos Space Marine stratagems work on Heretic Astartes keyword units, which actually includes Death Guard and Thousand Sons units (excepting of course the legion specific ones). However you need a Chaos Space Marine detachment to unlock those stratagems (which basically means any Heretic Astartes keyword units that aren't Thousand Sons or Death Guard, plus Fallen who don't have the Heretic Astartes keyword and Fabius Bile who doesn't have a legion).

 

Having mark of tzeentch doesn't do anything on its own except for letting you take those silly flame icons. Chaos Space Marine Tzeentch psykers get access to Weaver of Fates and a stratagem that lets them cast another power and the Weaver of Fates power can only target Tzeentch units. If a unit is both Tzeentch and a Daemon however it becomes a valid target for auras and spells from the Chaos Daemons codex which can be quite nasty.

 

In the Chaos Daemons codex, having an entirely tzeentch detachment gives the HQs an aura that makes units within 6" sometimes harder to hit in close combat. Its roll 2 dice and discard the highest; any to hit rolls of that value automatically miss. So if either of those two dice is a 1 the ability is useless and in most cases its useless unless both dice are 3 or higher.

 

Heralds of Tzeentch do gives +1 strength to tzeentch daemons within 6" though so that's okay. Daemon Princes also give out the re-roll 1s to hit aura but Thousand Sons Daemon princes also do that and are outright better so that may be irrelevant. There's also a Tzeentch Daemons warlord trait that lets Tzeentch Daemons within 9" reroll 1s to wound in the shooting phase, which technically works on Tzaangors on discs and Obliterators.

 

The Tzeentch daemon discipline also has good powers but that's already in the Thousand Sons book.

 

Apart from unlocking stratagems Chaos Space Marine detachments just get objective secured on their troops and legion traits on their daemon princes, infantry, bikes and helbrutes.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Hmmm... and since my legion has its own codex, it doesnt appear in the chaos book.  So the units I want to include for fun (just because I have them and like them), are only there to be there... they dont gain any abilities.  Hmmm... Maybe I should cultivate a CSM ally army that isn't Thousand Sons.  Presumably the CSM codex doesn't require all for your units to have the same legion trait? is there any sort of benefit or restriction on that?

 

I wonder if I could have my non Thousand Sons Codex units be from a different legion (or legions?). I could paint them with a custom scheme and then just decide what the units have for each game that have been drafted in by my Thousand Sons and then in game terms, they could benefit from their legion traits and also, being daemons benefit from the powers of my daemons for having the mark of tzeentch?

 

Thanks for your help Closet Skeleton, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yes, you can have your chaos space marine "thousand suns" be any legion you want - though, best to choose one that doesn't require a different mark and whose traits best match your image of a tzeenchian force - I think alpha legion would work, but flavour their stealth aspects as sorcery instead. 

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Yeah, I dont think I'll have too much trouble justifying the benifits from the other legions... I mean, all I have to say is sorcery after a description of their power! Also though I dont think theres any problem with them just being from another legion (appart from colour scheme... which for my possessed isnt really an issue).  In the Ahriman series of books, he amasses a small fleet from nothing that mostly comprises of other legions that have pledged their cause to his.

 

After talking to you guys about this, I'm thinking about focusing and themeing my CSM army. I could make them all Daemonic. Daemon prince, then Possessed, Warp Talons, Oblitirators, mutilators and any Daemon engines my Thousand Sons can't take. I really like the idea of that theme (I dont really know or care if it will make the army terrible). Also though, in game terms, i could synergise them with my Daemons quite well by the looks of things, and my Daemon army isnt very big either at the moment.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

FYI, in the Thousand Sons Codex, "Thrall Renegade Chapters" are listed in their organization. So just create an ally detachment along those lines that uses the Renegade legion trait and mark them all Tzeentch.

 

You could also pick The Scourged, Oracles of Change, or any of the other Tzeentch Renegades in the CSM Codex. Tzeentch Black Legion (i.e. Sons of the Cyclops) are also an interesting ally option.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Ok cool, having some flavoursome names for my CSMs wont hurt. I had ear marked thebrenegades as a valid choice as advance and charge is awesome for melee units and my CSMs are the melee arm of my Thousand Sons that are primarally toting lascannons beyond the usual inferno bolts and mind bullets.

 

Well im super glad i started this thread, you've all been an fantastic help. I'll try not to ruin everyones Chaos street cred by spreading rumours about how lovely everone is!

[dakkamasta]

I would recommend a Battalion of Thousand Sons to run your Sorcerers and Rubrics and then a CSM detachment of a legion of your choice with your other stuff. Since you have 40 cultists you could even make it a 2nd Battalion for extra CP and make all the daemon units Tzeentch so they get buffs from Thousand Sons psychic powers and daemon prince bubbles. It would be a solid force too.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Ok So I have a list and I wondered what people will think...  Bare in mind that since I dont have the Chaos Space Marine or the Daemon Codex, I'm struggling to keep track of the differences between things like the 3 Daemon Prince Variants and other such things. this is what I have so far though:

 

Thousand Sons Batallion

 

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - 9PL

Sorcerer                                - 6PL

 

10 Cultists                             - 3PL

10 Cultists                             - 3PL

10 Rubric Marines                 - 14PL

 

Spawn                                   - 2PL

 

Chaos Predator                     - 9PL

 

Chaos Space Marine Patrol (Renegades)

 

Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch - 8PL

 

10 Cultists                               - 3PL

10 Cultists                               - 3PL

 

Possessed                              - 11PL

 

Daemons of Tzeentch Auxiliary

 

Changecaster                         - 4PL

 

 

 

YES... we are using power level just to make things simple, we aren't super competitive and don't really care about the imbalances caused by not having identical points values. Fortunately that means that while I'm asking for advice I dont have to worry about options either.

 

I know that in order to get the Changecaster I'm losing a CP, but then I've pissed plenty of CP away before re-rolling dice that end up as ones... so I figure, why not get something that buffs my possessed, prince and sorcerer and can use psychic powers. 

 

I'm not sure if I'm mistaken about which things can buff which things, but I'm under the impression that my Daemon Prince buffs everyone with either the mark of tzeentch or a Daemon of Tzeentch, the Change Caster buffs Daemons of Tzeentch? I took the Changecaster and Spawn as an afterthought because after taking all othe other stuff I had 6PL left... none of this is set in stone. I'd like to take my possessed for their first game... that's pretty much it!

 

Love to hear what you think.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Like... the Discipline of Tzeentch refers to Tzeentch Daemons... is that just any unit with both the "Tzeentch" and "Daemon" Keywords?

[Marshlands]

Like... the Discipline of Tzeentch refers to Tzeentch Daemons... is that just any unit with both the "Tzeentch" and "Daemon" Keywords?

Yar