Allying Thousand Sons and Tzeentch CSM

[brother_b]

Nice looking list. I also play PL in our group I can not really figure out the fuss for points outside of tournaments and even then... to each their own I believe some people love the granular aspect of point matches.

I've also been contemplating T sons and be CSM.

[Kite Senet]

I personally don't see what's so hard about calculating points in advance...though to be honest I do spend about 10 times more time listbuilding than I do actually playing the game. (I have a printable booklet filled with different list ideas, and I wrote specialized LaTeX template code for 40k list building.)

 

Besides that, certain armies are hurt quite terribly by not utilizing points -- even (and sometimes especially) very casual lists, such as mine which are very Rubric Marine heavy. I'm not going to pay as if I was playing my 50 Rubric Marines mostly upgraded with Warpflamers when only a handful of them are actually going to carry those weapons -- and that's effectively what power level assumes, charging me 27 power for a 438 point 20-man Ru-brick squad: 16.2 points per power. And, somehow, (unupgraded) Cultists get an even worse deal, yielding only 13.3 points per power!

 

In particular, Pandora's list is valued at (I estimate) 1254 points vs 75 power; he's only getting about 16.7 points for every power he's allowed to spend. Since 100 power ~ 2000 points, it should be closer to 20 points per power; even my own (not casual) lists only dip to about 18.5; imagine playing 40k with a 20% disadvantage and you get an idea of the amount of handicap that you're taking on simply so you don't have to compute your list's points value in advance (when you certainly have the opportunity to).

 

The power system has its value in games which are thrown together on a whim at the LGS, but if you're putting *any* sort of planning into the list I don't see why one wouldn't bother to do the math towards points levels. The amount of points variation that can occur between lists of equal power level is simply staggering to me.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

@Marshlands

Ok cool, thanks

 

@Brother_B

Cheers, if one one else has any suggestions maybe I'll just go with this then. My new Thousand sons and Daemon friends system should make for some fun physical build and army building opportunities.

 

@Kite Senet

I have noticed that there is a lot of swing in the points to power ratio because it assumes you will be upgrading units.  We've been playing a while so I'm plenty used to doing the points, but its just faster. As you say, you can spend forever calculating the points, and I really enjoy practising maths in my head so I used to spend a lot of time mixing and matching kit to get the most out of my point allowance...

 

But now I have two children under 3, I spend pretty much all (and hour or so a night) of my spare time hobbying and very minimal time list building. I don't have a lot of games to iron out the kinks in lists, I try to play a very different list each time. I simply don't care if the armies are "balanced" anymore, so long as the games are fun.  If I was that worried about the points values of some units then I would never use some of them even if I did calculate the points.

 

I build my lists in battlescribe so I cant really say I wast THAT much time list building... but the other thing I've noticed is lets say I'm playing 75PL, which would I would say is about the value of a 1500 point game, I've NEVER made a list where the points came close to the pts value equivalent. my opponents are also list building their lists using PL so they will be coming up against the same issue. No one is maxing out on equipment for the sake of exploiting it, and I doubt any of them are checking the points values in their lists to make sure they get the most PL efficient units into their armies.

 

Soooo... what did you think of the list anyway? (imagine my opponent is playing an army of exactly equal points value)

[brother_b]

I personally don't see what's so hard about calculating points in advance...though to be honest I do spend about 10 times more time listbuilding than I do actually playing the game. (I have a printable booklet filled with different list ideas, and I wrote specialized LaTeX template code for 40k list building.)

 

Besides that, certain armies are hurt quite terribly by not utilizing points -- even (and sometimes especially) very casual lists, such as mine which are very Rubric Marine heavy. I'm not going to pay as if I was playing my 50 Rubric Marines mostly upgraded with Warpflamers when only a handful of them are actually going to carry those weapons -- and that's effectively what power level assumes, charging me 27 power for a 438 point 20-man Ru-brick squad: 16.2 points per power. And, somehow, (unupgraded) Cultists get an even worse deal, yielding only 13.3 points per power!

 

In particular, Pandora's list is valued at (I estimate) 1254 points vs 75 power; he's only getting about 16.7 points for every power he's allowed to spend. Since 100 power ~ 2000 points, it should be closer to 20 points per power; even my own (not casual) lists only dip to about 18.5; imagine playing 40k with a 20% disadvantage and you get an idea of the amount of handicap that you're taking on simply so you don't have to compute your list's points value in advance (when you certainly have the opportunity to).

 

The power system has its value in games which are thrown together on a whim at the LGS, but if you're putting *any* sort of planning into the list I don't see why one wouldn't bother to do the math towards points levels. The amount of points variation that can occur between lists of equal power level is simply staggering to me.

 

Unless you load up with all the bells and whistles? Not sure if that makes any sort of sense but fully upgraded squads must be worth more when figuring in the points.

 

Point well made though, it just hasn't mattered in our group yet. We play to win, we're competitive, but it's more just playing the game than anything else and PL has made it super easy.

 

Anyway enough hijacking. Thanks for the point of view.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

 

Kite Senet, on 05 Jul 2018 - 12:30 AM, said:

http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

I personally don't see what's so hard about calculating points in advance...though to be honest I do spend about 10 times more time listbuilding than I do actually playing the game. (I have a printable booklet filled with different list ideas, and I wrote specialized LaTeX template code for 40k list building.)

 

Besides that, certain armies are hurt quite terribly by not utilizing points -- even (and sometimes especially) very casual lists, such as mine which are very Rubric Marine heavy. I'm not going to pay as if I was playing my 50 Rubric Marines mostly upgraded with Warpflamers when only a handful of them are actually going to carry those weapons -- and that's effectively what power level assumes, charging me 27 power for a 438 point 20-man Ru-brick squad: 16.2 points per power. And, somehow, (unupgraded) Cultists get an even worse deal, yielding only 13.3 points per power!

 

In particular, Pandora's list is valued at (I estimate) 1254 points vs 75 power; he's only getting about 16.7 points for every power he's allowed to spend. Since 100 power ~ 2000 points, it should be closer to 20 points per power; even my own (not casual) lists only dip to about 18.5; imagine playing 40k with a 20% disadvantage and you get an idea of the amount of handicap that you're taking on simply so you don't have to compute your list's points value in advance (when you certainly have the opportunity to).

 

The power system has its value in games which are thrown together on a whim at the LGS, but if you're putting *any* sort of planning into the list I don't see why one wouldn't bother to do the math towards points levels. The amount of points variation that can occur between lists of equal power level is simply staggering to me.

 

Unless you load up with all the bells and whistles? Not sure if that makes any sort of sense but fully upgraded squads must be worth more when figuring in the points.

 

Point well made though, it just hasn't mattered in our group yet. We play to win, we're competitive, but it's more just playing the game than anything else and PL has made it super easy.

 

Anyway enough hijacking. Thanks for the point of view.

 

 

Ha ha ha, very interesting. I expected competitive players to no NOT use the PL system. Its funny how many different ways people play. I'm competitive in that I want to win, but I don't write competitive lists. I've played units that are regarded as terrible just so that they see some play. I am known by my friends as a slow player, making the games last MUCH longer... but I once played 3 games in a hour when I fancied trying a Genestealer only Tyranid list and my friend played his orks that are mainly ranged.  The only time I got into melee when in one of the games my friend decided it would be fun to Leroy Jenkins his Warboss and buddies into my biggest unit of Genestealers.

 

Its not a game that I particularly want to play again but I dont regret trying.  It would be interesting to repeat that game now with the new rules changes since then, like movement speeds and saves.

 

anyway, I'm derailing my own thread now!

 

Since you are a self proclaimed competative player Brother_B, I appreciate your acceptance of my list even more now! Any idea if you were forced to play this list how you would chose to run it, like who would support who? So I was originally thinking of making one of the Sorcerers the Warlord and hiding him near my Predator, but now I'm thinking about making it the Daemon Prince and giving him the 3++ Warlord Trait.

 

I dont know who im fighting yet, but its likely to be either Raven Guard or a Khornate army.

[Krakendoomcool]

Leeeeeeeeerrrrroooooooyyyyy Jjjjjjenkins! I am that Leeroy Jenkins. I remember this.

 

Ok as you were.

[Kite Senet]

Soooo... what did you think of the list anyway? (imagine my opponent is playing an army of exactly equal points value)

 

Fair enough, and sorry about the bit of a derail. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of the massive points variations that can occur at a given power level; if you're playing with friends who are abiding by the same list-building ethic then it should be fine.

 

I can't claim I can interpret the list very well; you've selected a collection of units that, for the most part, I have never touched. I've used Rubric Marines, but how they play is highly dependent on whether you load them up with Warpflamers or with Inferno boltguns (I like small squads with Warpflamers and large squads with boltguns, personally). Cultists I've played, and they're always good--I suspect they'll carry the list in this case. I like Chaos Spawn as well. As for the rest, I either don't have the models, or haven't had time to actually play them.

 

One concern I suppose I have is that you have a pretty substantial psychic phase without, as best I can tell, many really large targets to buff using those spells. One small amelioration of this would be to combine the two 10-man Cultist units in the Renegades patrol into a single unit; but it'd come at the cost of substantial morale losses, which may be difficult to deal with currently.

 

The alternative solution I see would be to, and I suspect this is more in the spirit of the list, potentially (in the long term) add even more models to the Possessed unit and then make them the focal point of buffs with Changecaster and DP for Gaze of Fate to re-roll the Possessed's Attacks roll. It is however quite unfortunate that you can't give the Possessed the Thousand Sons legion, since that means you can't use Dark Matter Crystal to help get the Possessed in range; but at least you can save DMC for the Rubrics. Otherwise, getting the Possessed into range may be difficult; perhaps a Rhino or some other transport may be useful?

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

That's a fair point, I see what you mean about the lack of big units to target, although I could buff the Daemon prince or the possessed. If I get all the daemons together, then Id have the 4 daemon units, 3 of which can cast and target any of the other 4. I guess I just need to provide much more tempting targets than the Possessed using my Cultists, as he couldnt target the 3 daemon characters unless they are the closest. Rather than take them as renegades, I could take them as alpha legion, doesnt that mean they are -1 to shoot... buff the possessed with another -1 to hit... so have them in front of the daemon wave, with a -2 to hit at range? that would also keep my predator a bit more safe at range.  I was going to take renegades for the increased charge chance but if they die before they get there then there's not much point in that.

 

I know what you mean about getting them, I do have two rhinos that have always existed to transport my very slow Rubricae so that's something to consider. I cant really merge the cultists into a big blob because I've taken that many units to fill slots for valid detachments.  Your right in that I'd like more possessed, ideally I want to get to 20 at some point but for now I think I'm just going to aim for 15, I need to build one more.  Good Shout on the DMC, I have a sorcerer that can hang out with them and maybe bump them across the battlefield to surprise rapid fire their weapons into someone unsuspecting. Sadly mine are just 9 with bolt guns = the AS, I want to try and make some green stuff copies of the specialist weapons using insta mould, but i haven't tried yet.

 

thats certainly some food for thought, thanks Kite Senet

[Kite Senet]

In the Renegades Patrol detachment? I'm pretty sure Patrol detachments only require 1 to 3 Troops, so I think you could merge the two Renegade Cultist units at least.

[brother_b]

I do play competitively, lets say, instead of "competitive" IE tournaments. We like to win, but you won't see any 6 x flyrants (pre faq) or 3 x teserac vaults, etc. None of those kinds of lists.

 

I haven't played with chaos this edition although I have fought chaos multiple times.

 

The biggest weakness I see is the small unit size of cultists. In my experience cultists have really been good when they've been taken in large groups. That way they can weather the storm of fire. sure you'll suffer some from morale issues but they do have some staying power. That's how they've proven effective against me. I'll let other Chaos generals comment more on the actual make up of your list.

 

Cheers!

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Oh right! I dont know why I thought it was two troop requirement! ok, well maybe I'll merge the melee group. Its interresting that your both suggesting the use of big cultist units.

 

I havent really read many battle reports to see how the different unit sizes fair in battle but I usually favour small unit sizes because of the punishing moral, also if people want to target them from range they have to split their fire between the units, so if there is only one unit in range of them and they happen to be in range with something like missile launchers, they wont oblitorate the entire 20 man unit. I can see what you mean by having a big unit and then theres one focus for buffs.  So how have you seen them used so effectively?

 

I'm really interested by this because I only ever see my cultists as objective holders and detachment fillers. I expect them to die very quickly so never really expect them to do anything, but you seem to both rate them really highly. Whats the most annoying thing about coming up against them or what makes them a reliably good unit?

[Quixus]

The obliterators, defiler, possessed and talons are all daemons and work well with your tzeentch daemon buffs and TS psykers for warptime and prescience.

 

If you have 3 HS a spearhead would work

Yes, especially if the obliterators come from the Iron Warriors. Obliterators that ignore cover and possibly an HQ with 2+, 4++, heal one wound per turn. What's not to like.

[Kite Senet]

Well, the hope with large units is that, because they're all rolled into one large unit, you can buff that one big unit with spells like Weaver of Fates and Glamour of Tzeentch in order to make the unit much more durable. If you think you're going to fail morale horribly, you can always use the morale auto-pass stratagem to keep the mob alive; not that it always matters, since 40 cultists cost less (in points) than 5 Rubric Marines with Warpflamers, so even if you do suffer horrible casualties they've already done their job absorbing a ton of enemy fire that could have been directed at your more important units. And if they don't die, massing fire is one of the strongest attack methods in 8th; throw a few buffs in there, like Prescience and Veterans of the Long War, and you end up with a serious amount of damage output.

 

That said, you are correct in recognizing that morale losses are a major concern. You don't want to be spending 2CP for the morale auto-pass every turn just to keep the remnants of a cultist blob on the table. Plus, your buffing spells don't really get amazing until you have some really large units; I'm personally not sure that massive blobs of cultists are necessarily worth it until you get to 30-40 Cultists. So I could also, with your current list, see an argument for keeping those two ten-man Cultist units separate.

 

That said, I do think your army needs somewhere to strongly capitalize on your psychic power output. You don't really have exceptional targets for Weaver or Glamour at the moment. You could do this by combining cultist units, but I suspect it would be fluffier and more fun to do that with your fancy brand new Possessed models. (Though you may need to expand the unit: after all, Possessed can get up to 20 models, and there are 20 Legions...coincidence? I think not!)

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

I'll bare that in mind, I was always worried about investing so much resource into such a cheap and weak unit. I can see why you think its more worth it if the cultists are 30+ in number.

 

The other thing I realised, is while I've been building the list in battlescribe I've noticed that the daemons arnt showing up in my thousand sons options, and I actually have 3 screamers.  Now I'll have to double check my list because I had to factory reset my phone and rebuild the list... leaving me with 2PL spare some how, I could lose the Spawn and replace it with 3 Screamers instead, giving me another target for psychic powers.

[Quixus]

Screamers, Horrors etc. are not an option for Thousand sons detachments, neither in battlescribe nor the codex. They are just listed in the book for your summoning convenience.You can have them in a Tzeentch detachment or as a separate Daemon detachment. Do you know how to do multiple Codex detachments in battlescribe?

[brother_b]

Screamers, Horrors etc. are not an option for Thousand sons detachments, neither in battlescribe nor the codex. They are just listed in the book for your summoning convenience.You can have them in a Tzeentch detachment or as a separate Daemon detachment. Do you know how to do multiple Codex detachments in battlescribe?

 

This has brought up a question for me.

 

So, as Thousand Sons, can I put points aside and summon demons even though they're not listed? 

 

This is without having an actual demon army on the table to start, say a patrol detachment, vanguard, etc.

 

Thanks!

[Quixus]

I may not have made myself clear. Horrors are in the Codex, but they lack the THOUSAND SONS keyword. You can put them in your detachment but then it would no longer be a THOUSAND SONS detachment but a TZEENTCH detachment, which means the Daemons do not get Loci and the Thousand Sons do not get Brotherhood of Sorcerers.

 

You can avoid that drawback by taking a daemons detachment (a herald and one unit of horrors is a patrol detachment). You cannot "deep strike" horrors or heralds in detachments though. That is what summoning is for.

 

You are not required to have a DAEMON detachment to summon daemons. Cf. the Daemonic Ritual rule.

[brother_b]

I may not have made myself clear. Horrors are in the Codex, but they lack the THOUSAND SONS keyword. You can put them in your detachment but then it would no longer be a THOUSAND SONS detachment but a TZEENTCH detachment, which means the Daemons do not get Loci and the Thousand Sons do not get Brotherhood of Sorcerers.

 

You can avoid that drawback by taking a daemons detachment (a herald and one unit of horrors is a patrol detachment). You cannot "deep strike" horrors or heralds in detachments though. That is what summoning is for.

 

You are not required to have a DAEMON detachment to summon daemons. Cf. the Daemonic Ritual rule.

 

Thank you, as you can tell, I'm going to dabble in chaos (famous last words) but my experience has come from fighting against chaos.

 

This helped clarify.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Ohhh... Thanks Quixus, thats helpful. I dont know how to do multiple codexes on battlescribe, I'll have a look, I have to be honest, I've never tried because I didnt know it might be possible. As mentioned near the beginning of this thread, I wish the administrators of battlescribe would make it so you assigned a detachment to your army last so that it would just apply the restrictions to your model choices. its such a if you fancy trying a different detachment and have two start a whole new list for it.

 

I didnt notice that they didnt have the Thousand Sons Detatchment (although why would they?), I had completely forgotten that was relevent. So I could use daemons and CSM daemons to fill a detachment as they all share a keyword, but they would lose their codex benifits, it would just be for the CP?

[Quixus]

Ohhh... Thanks Quixus, thats helpful. I dont know how to do multiple codexes on battlescribe, I'll have a look, I have to be honest, I've never tried because I didnt know it might be possible. As mentioned near the beginning of this thread, I wish the administrators of battlescribe would make it so you assigned a detachment to your army last so that it would just apply the restrictions to your model choices. its such a if you fancy trying a different detachment and have two start a whole new list for it.

You start making a detachment of the first faction you want to use and then make sure that detachment (and not the roster) is highlighted. next press the add button and the detachment type will be locked in and you can only change the faction. Be careful there is no verification whether both factions can share a keyword.

 

I didnt notice that they didnt have the Thousand Sons Detatchment (although why would they?), I had completely forgotten that was relevent. So I could use daemons and CSM daemons to fill a detachment as they all share a keyword, but they would lose their codex benifits, it would just be for the CP?

Exactly. Not quite. One of the FAQs threw a wrench in that plan, unfortunately. The units are required to share a faction keyword. While the daemons in Codex CSM and Codex TS have the regular DAEMON keyword only those in Codex Chaos Daemons have the faction Keyword DAEMON. Silly right. You can however do the same thing with TZEENTCH as that is a faction keyword in both books.

[Pandoras Bitz Box]

Oh of course, that makes sense. Its unlikely I would ever try to do that just to get the CP anyway, I wouldn't want to lose the army rules to not having a solo codex detachment.