Chapter Masters in 8th

[Ultramarine vet]

Hello everyone! I have a question about how good generic chapter masters are nowadays. So, for the majority of my time playing space marines, I usually would field a chapter master with a thunder hammer and storm shield. They were always quite effective for me.

 

I have only played like, 1 game of 8th. So I have to wonder, what has changed with them? I'm hoping they are still pretty solid HQs. Lol.

[Halandaar]

As far as I can tell, almost nobody bothers with them. "Chapter Master" no longer a distinct profile that's better than Captains in certain areas, it's a stratagem that allows you to upgrade your Captain before the battle so his "re-roll failed hits of 1" aura ability becomes "re-roll all failed hits".

 

For me, it's a really poor use of 3 command points and only to be considered if you have absolutely loads of them.

[BlackTriton]

Generic chapter master, as in the syratagem, is there for fluff if anything.

However, captain with thunder hammer, storm shield and jump pack are a very good.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

I've used the stratagem once, and kind of wasted it (sent him off solo against another character). Lorewise it's a decent upgrade, but they need a big escort of melee killy or need to babysit a major gunline to make it worthwhile. It does absolutely nothing for him without negative hit modifiers, as he is BS/WS 2+.

 

Now if you threw a full squad of LC vets/terminators in with him, that may be worth it, depending on how you like chaplains. Gunlines may like him, but beyond these two uses I don't see much reason to take it other than lore.

 

I wish GW would upgrade that strat to give +1 attack, wounds, and Ld. Don't have my codex on me but I'm reasonably sure that Shrike has those over a regular captain.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I haven't used the start yet, but I'm going to start. I usually go into games at 2K points with 10 CPs and the majority of the strats I use are only 1 CP each so I don't tend to maximize CPs use as early as I feel I should ( by comparison, my 10-11 CP Chaos army burns through the whole batch in the first 2 turns). Plus, I've been having dice issues a lot lately so generating a few extra rerolls will help with that. Personally, I'm combining a hammer & shield TDA captain (now master) with the Storm of Fire trait and an accompanying Lieutenant to generate as many hit & wound rerolls as possible for my Gunline, specifically the pair of TFCs that will be sitting in the back.

 

Is it worth the CPs? I dunno. But I roll enough 2s with my army that it just might work out.

[Ultramarine vet]

Thank you for the information guys. Its a shame the generic chapter master was done like that, as I am a big custom chapter guy. If GW did give him an extra attack, wound, and LD, then I think a lot more people would feel better about spending 3 CPs to upgrade him.

 

@ Iron Father Ferrum - Let me know how it goes when you use the chapter master. Maybe all the rerolls are worth it. I'm hoping so.

[WarriorFish]

It's a good point in that C:SM Stratagems aren't the best, I use them mostly on re-rolls for example as a lot are niche - that means at larger points where you have more you can afford the CM. It's all relative of course, but with suitable units and placement you could really get a lot from his re-rolls. Add in a Lieutenant as IFF says and you could have a pretty spiffy fire base.

 

Maybe a little restrictive in how you can use it, and I agree it might never feel a good deal at 3CP but you can only work with what you're given and it's worth a go so I'm also interested to hear how it performs

[BlackTriton]

Its 3 cp to get improved rerolls for model that already have good stats, full rerolls have more value on 4+ and 5+ models.

It dosent compare to 2 CP shoot again, 3CP fight again. 3CP should be something that break the game.

 

For 1 CP I take it every time I have a captain. For 2 CP maybe, in some list if I have 2 battalion. 3CP I never take it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It's extra rerolls on good stats, sure, so yes it's less impressive than it would be on Guard, for example. However, it's also extra offensive power for an army that is being constantly lamented as needing every advantage it can get due to falling behind in the codex creep.

 

If you've got spare CPs, I say try it. Provide feedback on it to GW and maybe they'll drop the CP cost.

[CausticCossack]

I've used them a bit, and believe they can be very powerful, if situational.  The key thing is the degree to which your army can concentrate its forces. 

 

I most commonly play a heavy gunline Imperial Fists army, so the question is if I can place my heaviest firepower units close enough together to all benefit from the re-roll bubble, while also having effective firing lanes.  If the scenario and terrain allows for this, a Chapter Master can be extremely effective.  If you think about it, 3CP can be three re-rolls, while this upgrade could grant you several dozen re-rolls over the course of a game.  This will also improve your overwatch significantly - re-rolling all misses means that rather than a 1/6 (16.7%) chance of hitting, you have a 1 - 5/6 * 5/6 = 11/36 (30.6%) chance of hitting, almost as good as Tau Sept.

 

The same principle should apply in a more mobile army (though it would obviously be a lot easier to just use a chaplain for a heavy assault focus army), but again only if you concentrate your units.  If you have squads scattered all over the board going after different objectives, he's worthless.  If you have multiple squads popping out of their transports and others deep striking in all in a single small area to focus in on the core of the enemy army, he should result in a lot of incremental damage.

[Ultramarine vet]

I've used them a bit, and believe they can be very powerful, if situational.  The key thing is the degree to which your army can concentrate its forces. 

 

I most commonly play a heavy gunline Imperial Fists army, so the question is if I can place my heaviest firepower units close enough together to all benefit from the re-roll bubble, while also having effective firing lanes.  If the scenario and terrain allows for this, a Chapter Master can be extremely effective.  If you think about it, 3CP can be three re-rolls, while this upgrade could grant you several dozen re-rolls over the course of a game.  This will also improve your overwatch significantly - re-rolling all misses means that rather than a 1/6 (16.7%) chance of hitting, you have a 1 - 5/6 * 5/6 = 11/36 (30.6%) chance of hitting, almost as good as Tau Sept.

 

The same principle should apply in a more mobile army (though it would obviously be a lot easier to just use a chaplain for a heavy assault focus army), but again only if you concentrate your units.  If you have squads scattered all over the board going after different objectives, he's worthless.  If you have multiple squads popping out of their transports and others deep striking in all in a single small area to focus in on the core of the enemy army, he should result in a lot of incremental damage.

Thats good to hear, because I don't split my army up. I usually keep most of my army together, so a chapter master could work well. Although I have my chapter master with a jump pack with thunder hammer and storm shield, so he would be advancing toward the enemy.