Knights and the Command Points Conumdrum

[chapter master 454]

So it was a topic of hot contention and many had different view points on the matter and was the root of many de-railing of many threads. So lets take this topic and discuss the matter heads on without any other topic really being victimised for its thread place.

 

It is no secret a core complaint among knight players is the lack of CP we can get for our own lists when going pure knight. The core peeve that many have pointed to is the twice done error in the codex regarding armigers and not being eligible for generating Command Points for knight lists. If this was seen to it would likely lead to many knight lists being able to at least reach 9 command points by themselves but as it stands it is impossible with any real variance or choice.

This has lead to many noting that knight lists can only ever bring 6CP (7 if they bring that laughable warlord trait which should of been a CP regenerater) and within the game, now a more understood system 6 CP is nothing unless you are running the basic 3 stratagems (command re-roll, counter-charge and insane bravery) and even then it is a tight set of points.

 

This has lead to many people turning to the much dreaded and hated but yet equally loved and trusted Soup. With the "recent" update to the detachments, battalions now offering 5CP and Brigades offering a massive 12CP, many have looked to other armies to be a minimal required battalion to help fuel the Knights Stratagems and thus becoming a "Battery Battalion". There are many flavours of this however the main one that stands out as the best deal that many stand with is the Astra Militarum Variant, coming in at 180 points and having access to grand strategists Warlord (recover each spent CP on a 5+) and Kurov's Aquila Relic (roll a die each time the enemy uses a stratagem, gain a CP on a 5+). This means a Knight army can now come to the table with 11 Command Points and can use their own stratagems to still gain access to warlord traits and relics (though the tax is steep).

 

While this solution is cheap, cheerful and effective with many things going for it, it does raise some key concerns regarding the balance of the game but in this discussion the core question of the balance regarding Knights.

The sides are split with valid points each side and with many sources backing each side. On one side it should be encouraged that players bring a mix of units, both infantry and armour (be it metal or monster) which leads to armies having a more interesting to and fro within the battle but as all things in life, nothing is this easy. The side arguing that knights should not gain access to easy CP by themselves argue that bringing 4 or more units of knight stat lines (T8, 3+/5++ and 24W+) is not fun and arguably shouldn't be allowed however on the other side (and to be clear as the author of this, I am on this side I am proposing) should it not go both ways? Shouldn't players be punished for bringing 100+ models that all cost 5 points or less but yet don't lose out on any anti-tank, anti-infantry and have a tremendous amount of objective control? Shouldn't both extremes be viable or do we believe that extremes shouldn't exist (yet sadly we must acknowledge they will exist and can be a thing).

 

Among the arguments there have been calls for the idea that bringing these "Battery Battalions" is fluffy as knights would often need support and the knights would be supporting other forces. However on the other end it is just as common for knights to fight by themselves against entire armies with no support of other forces. Another aspect is that these units add diversity and help ease the power of knights a little by adding something that can be dealt with but unfortunately when those 32 models of 180 points only amount to less than 10% of the lists total points spent, they mean little in the grand scheme of the battle (in fact, only 1 model matters in the whole set of 32).

 

Some have proposed that each points level of games should be hard capped for both players, each getting equal points regardless of their army list while some have put forward more esoteric ideas or even radical (found one person who said Command points were akin to formations and should be removed).

Speaking for myself and not others, my personal solution does affect all armies but in the context of this discussion could help deal with the issue for knights. Command point bonuses from detachments would be codex based. To show what I mean, all detachments in the rulebook stay the same but DO NOT have a Command benefit there. Instead each codex would state how much CP one would gain from each detachment. So for this example I will list how knights could possible work:

 

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment Command Benefit:

If this detachment has 1-2 Armiger Class Knights, this detachment grants 0 Command Points

If this detachment has 3 Armiger Class Knights, this detachment grants 2 Command Points

If this detachment has 1 Questoris Class Knight, this detachment grants 2 Command Points

If this detachment has 1 Dominus Class Knight, this detachment grants 2 Command Points

 

Super Heavy Detachment Command Benefit:

If this detachment has at least 9 Armiger Class Knights, this detachment grants 3 Command Points

If this detachment has 15 Armiger Class Knights, this detachment grants 4 Command Points

If this detachment has at least 2 Questoris Class Knights, this detachment grants 3 Command Points

If this detachment has at least 4 Questoris Class Knights, this detachment grants 6 Command Points

If this detachment has at least 1 Dominus and 2 Questoris Class Knights, this detachment grants 5 Command Points

If this detachment has at least 2 Dominus Class Knights, this detachment grants 6 Command Points

 

When determining which Command benefit applies, use only the highest applicable option (for example: if a detachment contains 2 Dominus Class Knights and 9 Armiger Class Knights then the command benefit from that detachment is 6).

 

While this is only a rough cut idea, it is my idea of a solution to the issue. I tried to keep it balanced by encouraging use of SHD (super heavy detachment) over SHAD (super heavy auxiliary detachment) by making the max CP from SHAD 2 which with the current restriction on detachment amounts would help push players to making SHD. Naturally these are just off the top of my head and aiming for 2000 point games.

 

That is only my idea though. What are the thoughts of my fellow Princeps, High-Kings and Barons?

[Tyriks]

I honestly think CP should be a reward during game play, not something you get during list building. Sitting on an objective gives one CP, in addition to whatever victory points your mission gives you for that. Maybe then get bonus CP for taking an objective from your opponent. It's supposed to represent tactical achievements so make it connected to tactical achievements. A flat rate sounds good for armies like Knights but it would hurt the armies currently swimming in CP.

 

The points rewarded could be different for different missions, or on a sliding scale (1-3 objectives gives 1cp, 4-5 gives 2 and 3 gives 6 or something), or it could be tied to obsec (only units with obsec can generate CP), or even slightly different for different armies (more elite armies might generate a bonus point under some circumstances to account for less bodies). This would add depth and strategy to actual game play, not reward gimmicky lists.

 

And obviously it would require some balancing, I won't claim it is perfect right out of the gate, but it would mak CP a fun part of playing the game instead of a hassle you need to plan for with purchases.

[jeffersonian000]

I’ve been toying around with a Knight Lance build that spends all of its starting CP before the game, and just plays without CP during the game. Feels freeing, in a way.

 

SJ

[Clingy]

What toys are you bringing in that Lance?

[synthaside]

I think a way more elegant / better method to deal with the CP issue for super heavy detachments would be as such.
We all know GW prefers simple its 8th and the idea is to streamline; as such here's my suggestion for " Knight Lances"
 

If your army is Battle-forged, select one model in each IMPERIAL KNIGHTS Super-heavy  Detachment in your army.  This model

selected gains the CHARACTER keyword.  However, the Command Benefit of each Imperial Knights Super-heavy Detachment

is changed to ‘None’ Furthermore for each QUESTORIS and or DOMINUS CLASS knight in the super heavy detachment you may add +1 command point to the detachment command benefit

This would give the plucky knight player as many CP as they can field large knights, It could even mean you see combinations with multiple Errant's or Gallant's bringing as many as 5 CP in a " pseudo Battalion" 
It counters would mean people  Armiger spam and just 1 bigger knight supported by armiger in the lance is viable and how i imagine GW expected people to run things like the preceptor.

 

[jeffersonian000]

What toys are you bringing in that Lance?

A House Raven Exalted Court with 3 characters and 3 relics (-6cp)

 

Gallant w/ Ironspear, Paragon Gauntlet, Knight Seneschal

Warden w/ Ironspear, Endless Fury, Cunning Commander

Perceptor w/ Ironspear, Helm Dominatus, Landstrider

2x Helverins w/ Stubber

1x Warglaive w/ Stubber

 

Almost no need for Strats with all the baked in bonuses. Still has 1cp for a Deathgrip or any other 1cp Strat if warranted. Ironspears are for Horde Control, Perceptor boosts the Helverins, Warden controls mid board, Gallant and Warglaive sweep a flank.

 

And if I feel frisky, dropping the Warglaive and an Ironspear nets 180 points for an IG Battery.

 

SJ

 

Edit: that’s 1750, for the new format.

[Clingy]

I like it, I imagine it would be fun to play

[jeffersonian000]

I think so, too. Worth a whirl, any way. If they fix the CP issue and allow three Armigers to get 3 CP, this list can go from 7 CP to 10 CP with no changes at all.

 

SJ

[LegionOfMars]

Is there any clue when the knight FAQ will drop and what are we hoping for alongside the CP fix?

[Vel'Cona]

Is there any clue when the knight FAQ will drop and what are we hoping for alongside the CP fix?

 

These typically land 2-3 weeks after a codex release, though with how popular and unique IK are we could be waiting a bit longer.  For the time being, my preferred method is allied Battalions and a Scrooge-like hoarding of CP until absolutely necessary.