1750pts comp. list. How to efficiently mix gunline+melee?

[Aout]

Hey guys,

 

So I've always wanted to play an army centered around Primaris marines because the new models actually look good. However my friends are pretty competitive, and some of them are VERY competitive players (to give you an idea, our Tyranid players had 70 Genestealers, a Broodlord and 2 Flyrants and some other goodies on the battlefield last time...) so having Primaris one the tabletop may look good, but they're definitely not going to help me win.

 

I also want to avoid being a one trick army with DC+SG squads deepstriking everygame, simply because it is too easy to play around it and the FAQ changes (deepstriking turn 2) don't help at all.

 

So here what I came up with (more explanations below). I have a ton of questions so I would really appreciate your guys thoughts.

 

HQs

 

- Captain Slamguinius. First question. Has anyone tried replacing the Storm Shield with a Plasma Pistol. I always feel like we miss something when we're not using that juicy 2+ WS. A plasma pistol is pretty much 1 to 2 more wounds guaranteed every turn. Considering how hard we hit and we already got FNP with Death Visions of Sanguinius, would this be a good trade off ? Has anyone tried the Plasma Pistol ?

 

- Chaplain with JP and PowerFist. 

 

Troops

 

- 4 Intercessors + 1 Sergeant with Chainsword.

- 4 Intercessors + 1 Sergeant with Chainsword.

- 4 Intercessors + 1 Sergeant with Chainsword.

- 4 Intercessors + 1 Sergeant with Chainsword.

- 4 Scouts + 1 Sergeant. Pistol and Chainsword.

- 4 Scouts + 1 Sergeant. Pistol and Chainsword.

 

Elites

 

- 2 Aggressors + 1 Sergeant. Autobolstorm Gauntlets. Keep it mind the Gauntlets are also including a Power Fist.

- 9 Reivers + 1 Sergeant. Combat Knives, Heavy bolt pistols and GRAV CHUTES.

- 10 Death Company Marines. 3 Power Fists, 1 Power Sword.

 

Heavy Support

 

- 5 Hellblasters with Plasma Incinerator

- 5 Hellblasters with Plasma Incinerator

- 5 Hellblasters with Plasma Incinerator

 

Alright so that's 1717 points, this gives us 68 minis (58 of them having 2W) and 2 HQs which I believe is a decent number of Marines for 1750pts. 

 

All the melee units can deep strike and I believe there's a decent mix of Power Fists and regular attacks to cut through chaffs and larger units alike. Also the Chaplain hit reroll rule for everyone is definitely gonna help the Power Fists in the DC and it will allow the Captain to hunt on his own, he doesn't have to be with a unit to share his aura.

 

When it comes to securing objectives, the 4*5 Intercessors+2*5 Scouts combo is going to be more than enough.

 

Now let's move on to the part I don't like: my gunline, which ironically is one of the main reasons I built the list this way.

 

So I got 15 Hellblasters, 20 Intercessors and 3 Aggressors which may look decent but the simple fact that I got 15 HB kinda forces me to include a Captain. I'm wasting too much firepower by not including a Captain next to them. Also, this gunline doesn't help me much against Large targets/vehicles. 

 

And that's my main concern. I don't believe the mix of Plasma Incinerators and Power Fists is enough to deal with the likes of Mortarion, Imperial Knights and other super heavy units. I need lascannons. But at the same time, I'd like to avoid using Devastators (playing mainly primaris is really the only limit I am imposing to myself)

 

If I remove one unit of Hellblasters, I can include of full lascannon Predator. However I've been told several times that having 1 predator is useless since it is always going to die turn 1. Is it something bad though ? What's your experience with only 1 Pred on the tabletop (also please keep in mind this is a 1750pts list, not a 2K). ?

Would a Librarian Dreadnought be better in the role of anti heavy units ?

 

I'd really appreciate all your comments  and I will definitely update you with my results when i'll be done playing my first games !

 

[Diagramdude]

#1. Cheap devastator squads with 1 HB, 1 ML, and a cherub can really put a lot of mortal wounds out bc you can double dip the hellfire shells or flakk missile w the cherub. Good to hold backfield objectives and take mortal wound pot shots all game. Id recommend at least one squad for 105pts minimum. If you only put in a HB and ML, it just might fly under your opponents threat radar needing to kill 3 marines in cover to get at the heavies.

 

#2. If you keep the 15 hellblasters, consider utilizing a dreadnought for the reroll 1s. Wisdom of the Ancients is only 1 CP to grant reroll 1s for an entire phase. Most games will be decided by turn 2 anyway, so it's not that much of a CP investment. Better than a captain bc those points are also putting rounds down range. The FW Deredeo dreadnought has good firepower and can also take the pavaise for a 5++ invuln aura.

 

3. Also if you take all those hellblasters definitely find the points for a primaris ancient. The Astartes Banner makes you sometimes welcome the hellblasters dying to overcharge since they can shoot again on a 4+. Bit of a nasty trick here is to overcharge during overwatch, die on rolls of 1, but then double tap fire at full BS on a 4+ from the astartes banner. Also upgrading to standard of sacrifice makes their 2W profile go so much further.

[Brother Crimson]

I’d try to work you list around several detachement. You already plan to use 6 troops, so getting two battalions will get you a lot of CP.

 

Keep in mind every extra CP can give an extra d3 attacks to a character that charges, every 3 CP can allow him to fight twice, every 2 CP allows him to fight a last time when he dies. There is a lot more trick in the codex but Red Rampage + honour the chapter with a character that has +1 to wound is the reason blood angels captains are feared. In a local RTT I had a primaris captain with archangel shard (we choose relics after we see the army in my area) and an overconfident Mortarion had a bad day against the 16 attacks I threw on him. I know it’s an anecdote but every game one of my characters (captain or Mephiston or sanguinor, or even sometime the bannermnan!) manages to do something epic because of CP.

 

About your specific question for the captain, I’d take a combo-melta or inferno pistol instead of a shield but not a plasma. You have already a bunch of plasma shots to your disposal and in the unlikely event that you overcharge and the captains dies it will probably cost the game. Also you will probably be throwing the guy at big stuffs where D6 dmg will help.

 

To take you to the dual bataillon you’ll have to think about two extra HQ. Mephiston and alike are cool options but expensive. Lieutenants can be a good option too and really not expensive.

 

You also mentioned that your captain hang back with hellblaster and that you feel limited by this. Why not change the chaplain for a second captain? This way you have one forward and one on the gunline. Of course thematically speaking the one you target for black rage better be up front ;)

 

As mentioned before the banner is a really good and often overlooked element that brings a lot to primaris lists.

 

I hope I was not too vague and that some of those guidelines will help

[Karhedron]

If I remove one unit of Hellblasters, I can include of full lascannon Predator. However I've been told several times that having 1 predator is useless since it is always going to die turn 1. Is it something bad though ? What's your experience with only 1 Pred on the tabletop (also please keep in mind this is a 1750pts list, not a 2K). ?

Would a Librarian Dreadnought be better in the role of anti heavy units ?

One tank in an army that is otherwise all infantry will definitely die in a hurry as it will be the default target for all your opponent's anti-tank firepower. If you are running tanks you either need to run at least 3+ at this level. You have an army of tough infantry, I would strongly recommend maximising that advantage by denying your opponents easy targets for their lascannons. I normally run a Dev squad in my infantry-heavy BA list and they do well.

 

A Libby Dread can work since he is protected by being a character and also brings some psychic defenses for you. Wings + Quickening is almost certainly the best combo for this guy. If you manage to get Quickening and Red Rampage on him, you should be able to do about 12 Wounds on average to a T8 3+sv target (thinking Knights here) so he won't be one-shotting them but he can certainly finish off a damaged one. Morty is a tougher target but no one has come up with a fool-proof way of deleting him. Heavy bolters with hellfire and MLs and Flakk will certainly help.

 

Overall I think that devastators offer a lot for a reasonable price and I would not dismiss them out of hand.

[tychobi]

For competative play always consider your opponents target priority. For me that means putting yourself in a worse case scenario vs a savvy opponent and testing your list for holes.

 

So right off the bat if there is only one direct fire tank across from me i smile. Its dead to my lascannons or whatever and will never pay off. My target priority is easy. If there is only infantry across from me i fear that my lascannons are wasted points and a liability to my success. Hell blasters and aggressors make easy targets too. Who cares about bolt rifles when there are plasma toting madmen about.

 

Primaris suffer from being unable to hide expensive units easily. The repulor is pricy and makes a juicy target if not in pairs. Also your point of captain wanting to snuggle all those hellblasters is super valid. And extremely limiting.

 

I have seen primaris do very well, but only in blue or dark green and played as bubble hugging midfield shooting armies. We can do it with blood angels. . . Sorta. And not efficiently.

 

I see nothing intrinsic to the synergies of your proposed list that i would fear in a competative setting. You have a middling mid field shooting list with close combat bonuses and 1 death co wild card to worry about forlorn fury or rnd 2 charge. Nothing a decent tournament list cant juggle properly played. I do not see you hard countering anything and fear you will be picked apart by eldar, swamped by orks, outlasted by necrons, shot to bits by guard, and roflstomped by bezerkers.

 

I feel like ive come off a little harsh here

Sorry

[Aout]

Alright first of all thanks to all of you, @ Diagramdude @Brother Crimson @Karhedronuk @tychobi . It's been a while since the last time I had a proper conversation on competitive BA, and I'm happy I can have it here !

 

I feel like ive come off a little harsh here

Sorry

[Karhedron]

Looking better although I do have some thoughts.

 

I would put some heavy weapons in the Guard squads. You could put in mortars which are dirt cheap and provide some indirect fire if you want to hide the squads (or shoot as squads your opponent is hiding). The other option which might be better is to break up one of the heavy weapon teams and hide a lascannon in each squad. A heavy weapon squad will attract disproportionate firepower because it is easy to silence those lascannons with a few kills. With one lascannon embedded in each squad, it effectively has 9 ablative wounds that your opponent must chew through before he can stop it shooting.

 

If you can find a few points, try to upgrade the Chaplain to Lemartes. His synergy with Death Company units is so good that I consider him practically mandatory.

 

Lastly, if you can find a few more points for a 4th HQ (even just a bare-bone Lieutenant) you can run 2 BA Battalions rather than a Battalion and Vanguard which will give you an extra 4CPs. I would consider spending 1CP before the battle to buy your IG Commander the Relic "Kurov's Aquila". This nifty relic allows you to roll a dice every time your opponent uses a Stratagem and on a 5+, you get a CP.

[Diagramdude]

If you do decide to take Guard, make one of the company commanders the warlord with Grand Strategist and take Veritas Vitae on one of your BA characters. You won't have any problems with CP.

[Brother Crimson]

Hmm just taking a step back

“ I need a few tricks with my primaris army to beat my friends Tyranid”

 

“ let’s go soup with AM cp miner and all the goodies”

 

That escalated quickly :)

[STTAB]

My favourite Primaris units are inceptors.

 

With BA you have the ability have access to the relic banner and UWoF. Toughness 5, 3+ save and a 5++ will make them very hard to kill. With UWoF they could start on the board and join a captain using forlorn fury or a librarian Dreadnought using wings and wisdom of the ancients.

 

But I like go faster and dislike static.

 

You should definitely think about the relic banner if you are going infantry saturation. 5+++ works well for deathguard. Have a play with it on www.mathhammer8thed.com gravis armour, terminators or sanguinary guard become really stickier than you'd think with the 5+++

[Karhedron]

If you do decide to take Guard, make one of the company commanders the warlord with Grand Strategist and take Veritas Vitae on one of your BA characters. You won't have any problems with CP.

 

The problem with that is that if you make the IG Commander your Warlord, you miss out in running the full-fat version of Captain Smash.

[Charlo]

I'd say go for double batallion and ditch the guard.

 

With the changes offering 5CP now (meaning 13 to play with) gives your list a good chunk for what you need to achieve.

 

Bring Lemartes if you are using DC, his re-roll to a charge on 3D6 is something like 92% success rate. While you're at it, pop some special weapons in that DC too. Hammers + Swords are great.

 

Then bring back the Hellblasters + add in the Devastators for some Mortal Wound fun for the backfield 

[tychobi]

A guard battalion does escalate things quickly! I think your thought process in in the right vein. You can retool into a 3 battalion list quite easily and come with 18 cp an impressive pile. It seems more cohesive from a target priority perspective although those lascannon teams with no ablative wounds stick out if i am running multiwound models.

 

I run inferno pistol on my captain smashy pants. He already has a 4++. Not a huge boost but he has fun zapping stuff as he flies by. Never make him warlord as he is a suicide piece. 4 damage hammer is not that amazing to give up warlord every game. Angels wing is a must for the negation of overwatch. The look on the poor tau players face as you blow a neat hole into his gunline with no answer is gold pure gold.

 

I find lib dread vs mephiston a preference choice. They play almost identically.

 

Hopefully your club has some longbeards who like helping sharpen lists and will let you proxy stuff before you purchase to help you find what makes you happy. There is no substitute for experience

[durdle-durdle]

My favourite Primaris units are inceptors.

 

With BA you have the ability have access to the relic banner and UWoF. Toughness 5, 3+ save and a 5++ will make them very hard to kill. With UWoF they could start on the board and join a captain using forlorn fury or a librarian Dreadnought using wings and wisdom of the ancients.

 

But I like go faster and dislike static.

 

You should definitely think about the relic banner if you are going infantry saturation. 5+++ works well for deathguard. Have a play with it on www.mathhammer8thed.com gravis armour, terminators or sanguinary guard become really stickier than you'd think with the 5+++

Our banner is amazing IMO, for any shooty block (or even better, a mobile shooty block with inceptors, jump vets, or bikes up front who WILL be taking damage!)  It's also quite dank with sang guard  or terminators, as you say.  

 

where the vanilla one goes off on a 3+ vs our 4+, our dudes also gain a 5+++ from it.  being 33% less likely to die in the first place vs a 16% more chance to shoot WHEN you die seems great to me.  

 

I find vehicles pretty fragile in this edition, with the degrading profiles, and have been tending towards infantry.  

 

I would also suggest, with the 6 troops you want to bring, rolling the vanguard detatchment you have into one of those batallions and finding the points for a 4th HQ so you can bring 2 batallions.  that nets you 10 command points instead of 6, and has about the same number of slots.  a barebones lieutenant or captain seems a good deal to go with your aggressors or something.