A comparison of Astartes vs Deathwatch

[Prot]

Just for fun I was wondering if all the talk around Deathwatch being ‘the’ Primaris army made it true? Or a bit of hype.

 

As someone who plays both Ultramarines and Deathwatch, I don’t think it’s that clear cut.

 

I think if we’re talking pure bang for the buck, it’s hard for DW to beat the Guilliman lead gunline, or mobile gunline.

 

The Deathwatch have great access to tricks and weaponry, but BobbyG is a beast, and good in CC.

 

The Ultramarines can also do it up relatively efficiently with Scouts, and cheaper troops. However the Watchmaster is no slouch in the Aura department and the ability to deepstrike up to 3 units is no joke.

 

So after a few weeks or so under our collective belts, what do you guys think?

[Qui-Gon]

You must first clarify the notion that "Deathwatch are 'the' Primaris army" properly.

What is a Primaris army?

An army that includes ANY Primaris?
An army composed entirely of Primaris?
A mix between the two?

The fundamental notion of a Primaris army is that it is composed almost entirely of Primaris, particularly a mix of Primaris types.

If you are going to try to make the argument that Ultramarines make a better Primaris army because of Roboute Guilliman, Scouts, etc. then you've failed in the premise.
That is not a Primaris army. It is an army that includes Primaris, and takes advantage of units outside of the Primaris spheres of Intercessors, Reivers, Aggressors, Inceptors, Hellblasters, Primaris keyworded characters and the Repulsor.

Do Dark Angels make a better Primaris army?
No, because all they do is castle up with Azrael, Hellblasters, while using the other Dark Angels units. So they aren't a Primaris army, and if they were, the only thing they really gain is 3 damage plasma and a gunline chapter tactic to re-roll 1s always if they stand still.

Do Blood Angels make a better Primaris army?
It's been shown that while Primaris can be good with the chapter tactic allowing them to be deadly on the charge, no, because Blood Angels rely too heavily on their chapter units and stratagems which don't benefit Primaris nearly at all.

 

So, do Deathwatch make a better Primaris army?
The answer is yes, because unlike every other army that relies on a gimmick character to do 80% of the heavy lifting (Guilliman, Azrael or Smashguinius) Deathwatch don't need this.
A Primaris captain allows all the units to get the benefit of the dark angel's tactic just fine while on the move.
Fortis Kill Teams are the best units for Primaris because you can finely tune each unit to do all it must, and no less. (Hellblasters having ablaitive wounds, fall back and shoot with Inceptors [so Ultramarines are nixed for needing that], Aggressors to have units that are mobile, so they don't need as much the jump packs of Blood Angels.)

However, Primaris are not a melee army, and that's why they depend on the gimmick characters as mentioned, because these guys allow the army to punch in melee equally...but so does a Knight, so the 400 pts you spend on Guilliman can be spent on a Knight which is arguably as deadly, but is outside the scope of this discussion.

Also, the key thing to note is this:
You line up ANY set of Primaris against each other in the shooting phase independent of ANY character buffs. The exact same units per side, and let's see the result:

Ultramarines can fall back from the Blood Angel charges, but they kill each other equally in shooting.
Dark Angels have a bit better efficiency hitting with the re-roll 1s, but are no better at killing in melee or shooting than the Ultramarines or Blood Angels (where they are worse at melee)
Deathwatch mince EVERYTHING with the Special Issue Ammo. Shooting twice at 18" -2 with kraken, 15" 2+ to wound with hellfire, 12" AP -3 vengence. While every other Primaris unit hits on 3s, wounds on 4s, Deathwatch intercessors wound on 2s. Also the re-roll vs force org types, means that they have more wounds go through at the higher AP or wound values. And then if the Blood Angels charge, they have Aggressors to fill them with flamestorm gauntlet overwatch and can bounce with Inceptors. So the TROOP unit that you'd take at least 3 of in a proper primaris army is better than every other army's independent of buffs.

^^THIS^^ is why Deathwatch are a better Primaris army, because remove the special characters, they have the best weapons, plus the more efficient means to get wounds through and are more versatile than any other army, for the same effect.

[Prot]

You must first clarify the notion that "Deathwatch are 'the' Primaris army" properly.

 

What is a Primaris army?

 

An army that includes ANY Primaris?

An army composed entirely of Primaris?

A mix between the two?

The fundamental notion of a Primaris army is that it is composed almost entirely of Primaris, particularly a mix of Primaris types.

If you are going to try to make the argument that Ultramarines make a better Primaris army because of Roboute Guilliman, Scouts, etc. then you've failed in the premise.

 

Is this directed at me? Or are you just asking rhetorical questions?

 

To clarify my original post, GW stated on their channel that DW were 'the' Primaris army, so you'd have to ask them for more clarity, that's all I got for you.

 

Don't worry at this point about calling out people's opinions as "failures" this is a friendly exercise. Let's keep it that way. Thank you.

 

I personally think it's an interesting exercise to include stuff like BobbyG in the comparison because some of these codex specific rules do have larger effects that may make the Primaris more or less appealing. Just like SIA is an awesome piece of wargear we take great advantage of to make Primaris that much better. 

 

The other factor with Primaris for me is the Deepstrike thing. What a great mechanism to have. From a vehicle standpoint it is really too bad the Corvus never got that unit type extended to its capacity.

 

I do think Raven Guard perhaps have the best use of Aggressors. The last ITC GT I was at did feature marines (only in the form of Raven Guard) and it surprised me how effectively the army used Aggressors specifically. 

 

I think SnakeChisler mentioned doing the 4 Aggressor, 1 Inceptor + 5 Intercessor squad (perhaps in deep strike?) which is a good counter argument to the Raven Guard infiltration / double shoot first turn trick.

 

-If- we could have had a Primaris WatchMaster (perhaps even in Gravis) I would have truly loved that because right now I'm finding my "Repulsor" experiment is a bit awkward right now. Perhaps BobbyG, + Techpriest use does trump what I'm trying to do there with my Primaris.

[Brother Crimson]

THB Guilliman primaris mix is not that better than DW primaris. With their chapter tactic and a watch master they can reroll hit and 1 to wound and have access to stratagem for +1. Special ammo makes intercessor actually good. With an inceptor they can fall back and shoot just like UM. And a few hellblaster brings the high strength shots. Don’t forget too all the anti Xenos stratagems, they can screw up some armies.

 

I played a lot of blood angel primaris and their chapter tactic work really well with primaris but the deathwatch bring a hole new level of versatility and synergy with SIA.

 

Also the deep strike stratagem is extremely good.

 

I am not sure we will start to see all DW primaris armies at top table but I would not be surprised to see a imperium soup with DW primaris units perform really well.

[Vel'Cona]

I am not sure we will start to see all DW primaris armies at top table but I would not be surprised to see a imperium soup with DW primaris units perform really well.

 

At this point, Imperial Soup is just "CP farming Battalion flavour to taste" and something hard hitting.  DW can probably fill that role well enough, though Custodes and Knights are obviously tough contenders.

 

Here's hoping GW addresses the CP farming issue in CA 2018 :P

[anarchistscourge]

 

I am not sure we will start to see all DW primaris armies at top table but I would not be surprised to see a imperium soup with DW primaris units perform really well.

 

At this point, Imperial Soup is just "CP farming Battalion flavour to taste" and something hard hitting.  DW can probably fill that role well enough, though Custodes and Knights are obviously tough contenders.

 

Here's hoping GW addresses the CP farming issue in CA 2018

 

 

This right here. It annoys me that for an Imperial list to be considered competitive you need the "CP Farm". GW's reason for introducing CP in the first place was so players were rewarded with bringing fluffy armies. Now its more "what is the cheapest i can do X for that will give me the most CP".

 

I'm pretty sure this will get rectified in CA'18 just like they rectified Soup detachments in the big FAQ.

Personally I think it would be a good idea to reward players for taking mono faction (potentially even mono-"chapter"). Say a bonus CP for faction + 1 for mono "chapter". Its enough that people can forgo the extra CP if they want to play more competitively but rewards fluffy lists

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I strongly dislike CP farms as well and feel they reward the wrong type of armies .

[vigitant]

Eh.  I kinda like guardsmen being ubiquitous backfield objective holders for just about every imperium army.  S'kinda their job.

 

All the Slamaguinieus captains running around with scouts, on the other hand...

Or the 3 Banana bike captains.

[Lemondish]

I strongly dislike CP farms as well and feel they reward the wrong type of armies .

 

This is an interesting perspective - what do you mean by wrong type of armies?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

WAAC soup lists.

[Lemondish]

WAAC soup lists.

 

Ah, I understand. Though I will say that the inclusion of Astra Militarum into an Astartes list can be really fluffy while also not necessarily intending to be WAAC. 

[Indefragable]

Just a data point to consider, one could argue that BA Primaris have a particular edge: the Standard of Sacrifice.

 

AFAIK it's the only way to get 5+ FNP on Intercessors, Hellblasters, etc...

 

Now it would be REALLY hard to get every Primaris unit in your army within 6" of the dude holding your banner, so I agree with @Qui Gon's overall contention that DW are the Primaris army. But just wanted to throw that out there.

[Brother Crimson]

@indefragable: without a doubt te banner of sacrifice is a big edge for primaris blood angel and before deathwatch codex blood angel probably had the best primaris army but death watch has the best now IMO.

 

Just something as simple as mixing 5 intercessor with 5 agressor make a unit that is only slightly more expensive that’s a banner+aggressors and it has more punch versatility and its more resilient.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I would say that Deathwatch are the best option for a full Primaris force. That said I still don't think that there are enough Primaris units for that to mean much. With the space wolf codex announced I've decided to start collecting a Primaris force because I like the scale of their units.... a lot . But the more I play with the force the more limitations become apparent because I'm basically limited to like 6 or 7 choices at this point.

 

Deathwatch between SIA, mixed unit rules, and the stratagems feel like the best so far. That said the line up still has holes, and with the complete lack of disadvantage for combining forces its really tough to win when you put yourself at any disadvantage.

 

So I guess my answer is that there isn't a "Primaris Codex " yet.