Aggressors: As Melee Units?!

[Schlitzaf]

So been working on a new Templar list. Both FAQ one of the biggest issues a Codex Marine lists suffers in the melee department is we lack what I call the mid-teir elite melee. You have the 15-18ish point 1 Woundish models, 38-45ish point two wound melee (Terminators) while lacking the mid 30ish point 2 wound melee provided by Sang, and Wulfen. These two units represent one of the main lacks of Codex Space Marines.

 

Now working through my list, I found Aggressors at 37 points, have just this. While slow, they can advance freely, and a 5 Man Squad is reasonably durable putting out 40 Bolter Shots a turn and 11 Power Fist attack’s. Which hopefully make up for the -1 to hit they normally suffer.

 

I know folks made good use of them as a static gun lines but what about as melee units?

[Panzer]

I honestly wouldn't use them as melee unit. They're less durable than Terminators, lack the means to get into melee without Deep Strike or cheap transports and only hit with one Powerfist attack each on average.

 

Sanguinary Guard has all of the things. They are as durable as Terminators, fast, have deep strike, Stratagem support to actually reach melee (3d6 charge anyone) and more than 2 Powerfist attacks. Wulfen are faster and more durable as well while hitting WAY harder (and they don't even have their Codex yet).

As a melee unit Aggressors are so outclassed against those two it's not even funny and anything less than those two units have doesn't seem like it's enough for the points they cost.

Aggressors are GREAT as S4 spamming mid-range unit. Their Powerfists can be usefull in the case some tasty multi-wound target gets a bit too close so you can shoot at stuff and then charge it without changing your strategy for them but that shouldn't be your main use for them. In fact I'd be a lot happier if they'd lose the Powerfist part and become a bit cheaper instead even.

[Schlitzaf]

Um....Sang Gaurd only have 2 attacks on profile or battle scribe use lie on me? (Yes I know their are varieties of way to buff them). And Aggressors move 5+1d6 each turn. Also while 3d6 is better. A Templar has 2d6 rerollable. And in exchange for 2+ Sv it’s a T5. So if hit by 18 Bolters. An Aggressor take 6 wounds. A Sang Gaurd take 9. Admittedly the Aggressor would die here. The Sang would take 1.5 wounds.

 

The Sang while move faster given then an effective threat of 19 to 22 depending on strategem use. (Also can advance and shoot too relavently). Have to close the distance to within 8-12 to be effective to use their melee/Pistol/Boltgun.

 

Contrasting Aggressors only need to close 18 but effective threat range is 24-27 because they don’t need to close to Melee to threat. Otherwise Templar ones have an effective threat range of 12-14 for melee (a third less than the Sang). Sang Gaurd are no doubt better than Aggressors at a purely melee role comparison.

 

But what I am looking for a midfield unit supporting my Crusaders on flank or acting as hammer and for auspex interruption. While able to be a primary assault unit when needed. All said what I mostly need is an flanking style unit that effectively uses auspex scan. While being an anchor and able to use punch on units Crusaders would have trouble.

 

But all said; fair. The mobility or limited lack there of on the Aggressors is a main caveat. As they move on average 8” but no charging. Comparing to a unit like Sang or Wulfen, 12 + Charge, 8 + d6 + charge.

[Panzer]

Sanguinary Guard only have 2 attacks in their profile but get free re-rolls when near the Warlord (which they usually are in a BA army) and if your Warlord is the Sanguinor they also get +1A.

A charge re-roll is not even comparable with a 3d6 charge. With 3d6 your average roll is 10.5. With 2d6 re-rollable your average roll is still <9. Also BT Aggressors still have to get that far in the first place while Sanguinary Guard simply drop from reserves or get re-positioned via Stratagem.

2+ is better than T5 in almost all cases. I've already did the math comparing Terminators and Aggressors a few times since that's a rather common topic.

 

You're right. Hence why I said Aggressors are a great mid-range unit. The topic is using them as melee units tho and in that field they really aren't that great unfortunately (believe me, I wish it were different).

[Lysere]

Sanguinary Guard only have 2 attacks in their profile but get free re-rolls when near the Warlord (which they usually are in a BA army) and if your Warlord is the Sanguinor they also get +1A.

A charge re-roll is not even comparable with a 3d6 charge. With 3d6 your average roll is 10.5. With 2d6 re-rollable your average roll is still <9. Also BT Aggressors still have to get that far in the first place while Sanguinary Guard simply drop from reserves or get re-positioned via Stratagem.

2+ is better than T5 in almost all cases. I've already did the math comparing Terminators and Aggressors a few times since that's a rather common topic.

 

You're right. Hence why I said Aggressors are a great mid-range unit. The topic is using them as melee units tho and in that field they really aren't that great unfortunately (believe me, I wish it were different).

 

Re rolling charges is better than 3d6 when you factor in that 3d6 is costing you command points and requires you to deepstrike in order to use it while the re-roll is always.

 

Regardless Aggressors don't strike me as a great melee unit since powerfists aren't strong enough, especially when you aren't hitting all that well. Assault centurions would be a better choice and they're too expensive last I checked.

[Panzer]

 

Sanguinary Guard only have 2 attacks in their profile but get free re-rolls when near the Warlord (which they usually are in a BA army) and if your Warlord is the Sanguinor they also get +1A.

A charge re-roll is not even comparable with a 3d6 charge. With 3d6 your average roll is 10.5. With 2d6 re-rollable your average roll is still <9. Also BT Aggressors still have to get that far in the first place while Sanguinary Guard simply drop from reserves or get re-positioned via Stratagem.

2+ is better than T5 in almost all cases. I've already did the math comparing Terminators and Aggressors a few times since that's a rather common topic.

 

You're right. Hence why I said Aggressors are a great mid-range unit. The topic is using them as melee units tho and in that field they really aren't that great unfortunately (believe me, I wish it were different).

 

Re rolling charges is better than 3d6 when you factor in that 3d6 is costing you command points and requires you to deepstrike in order to use it while the re-roll is always.

 

 

Considering that using deep strike charges is one of the core strategies that actually work for Blood Angels I kinda want to disagree there. Aggressors will have enought roubles not getting shot to bits on their way to the enemy and until they get there the charge re-roll is useless while Sanguinary Guard is completely protected until you decide to charge them at the enemy.

[Lysere]

Safe except for needing the command points for reliability, counterable by dark elder, and able to be shot by interceptor stratagems and overwatch and if they fail or die no one else can use that bonus that turn.

 

Still its apples to oranges with these two units. A natural charge re roll means you can have multiple different units charging in more effectively in a single turn while the stratagem for 3d6 is used on a single unit.

[Panzer]

Command points is entirely in your hands, Dark Eldar is a VERY specific case and interception/overwatch shots are really not much of an issue unless it's something like the new knights super flamer.

I just think the results speak for themselves. Blood Angels JP assault units work well even in competetive games and armies that rely on charge re-rolls are struggling a lot more.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'd swap re-rolls for 3D6 every time.

[Brother Crimson]

The aggressors are actually what I would call a good counter charge unit. They have very good overwatch, T5 and as a bonus powerfist attacks. They work better to protect than active charge.

 

For BT I hope that the next point adjustment brings assault terminator down in points to fill that role.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Custodes are the best at melee now .

[Dracos]

Custodes are the best at melee now .

... and suck Slaanesh tentacles as an Omni-Dex army.

 

 

I’ve recently reworked my list to include a Primaris Captain with Powerfist in each (x2) 5 man Aggressor unit. Unlike most melee units these guys shooting (65 S4) can really soften an opponent for the attack ... and 16 S8 attacks rerolling 1’s to hit is serious business.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is there some rule you can’t use more than one detachment bruh ? Or is it just not cool in this neck o the woods ?

 

How are the Aggressors getting S5 shooting? That might make em worth it.

[BluejayJunior]

There are no default rules for the number of detachments you can use. Though the recommendation for 2000 point games is a max of 3. That is what most tournaments I've seen use as the limit and probably what most people would expect. 

Is there some rule you can’t use more than one detachment bruh ? Or is it just not cool in this neck o the woods ?

How are the Aggressors getting S5 shooting? That might make em worth it.

[Dracos]

Is there some rule you can’t use more than one detachment bruh ? Or is it just not cool in this neck o the woods ?

How are the Aggressors getting S5 shooting? That might make em worth it.

Thanks for catch on the Bolter strength. Damn phone post.

 

Too strong on the Slaanesh? My bad. It’s just the OP has nothing to do with Custodes and I’m exhausted with hearing about point and click units, especially the Custodes. How these guys get any traction when Primaris get all the hate is beyond my understanding.

 

And now I’ve gone off topic. My apologies.

 

There are ways Aggtessors work. Hopefully wit something cheaper than a Repulsor someday.

[Basteala]

Too strong on the Slaanesh? My bad. It’s just the OP has nothing to do with Custodes and I’m exhausted with hearing about point and click units, especially the Custodes. How these guys get any traction when Primaris get all the hate is beyond my understanding.

 

Right? Primaris are an improvement over what was supposedly man's greatest defender. The Custodes are this secret group of practically demigods that :cuss all over SM in terms of ability.

 

It's worth mentioning that a captain would turn an average of 5 hits to an average of (about) 8

[Kallas]

 

Too strong on the Slaanesh? My bad. It’s just the OP has nothing to do with Custodes and I’m exhausted with hearing about point and click units, especially the Custodes. How these guys get any traction when Primaris get all the hate is beyond my understanding.

 

Right? Primaris are an improvement over what was supposedly man's greatest defender. The Custodes are this secret group of practically demigods that all over SM in terms of ability.

 

Custodes have been in the background for decades, with the acknowledgement that they were superior to Astartes but far fewer in number.

 

Primaris have been in the background for about a year and were shoehorned in with Deus Ex Cawl.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Don’t be hating on Custodes they are the protectors of the Emperor.

[Basteala]

I'm less hating on Custodes and more saying the Primaris argument is kind of irrelevant. At least with the usual reasons I hear.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

 

Too strong on the Slaanesh? My bad. It’s just the OP has nothing to do with Custodes and I’m exhausted with hearing about point and click units, especially the Custodes. How these guys get any traction when Primaris get all the hate is beyond my understanding.

Right? Primaris are an improvement over what was supposedly man's greatest defender. The Custodes are this secret group of practically demigods that all over SM in terms of ability.

Custodes have been in the background for decades, with the acknowledgement that they were superior to Astartes but far fewer in number.

 

Primaris have been in the background for about a year and were shoehorned in with Deus Ex Cawl.

The setting was stagnant for so long that any development like the Primaris would potentially feel abrupt.

[Kallas]

 

Custodes have been in the background for decades, with the acknowledgement that they were superior to Astartes but far fewer in number.

 

Primaris have been in the background for about a year and were shoehorned in with Deus Ex Cawl.

The setting was stagnant for so long that any development like the Primaris would potentially feel abrupt.

Oh, certainly. It's just been a particularly poorly executed introduction, what with Cawl having apparently been creating them for 10,000 years, storing them all over the Imperium and whatnot.

 

More to the point, Custodes weren't received poorly because they'd been part of the lore for ages, and had pretty much always been better than Marines (essentially Astartes -> Custodes -> Primarchs in progression), which is what I was initially responding to.

[Basteala]

I will agree that the 10,000 years in storage with little to no insinuation of their existence is lame. If they were going to be brought out of nowhere, I would have rather development started when Gulliman returned--going back to the whole idea that the Imperium is less stagnant, and has a bit more progessive foresight with one of the Primarchs from a better age at the wheel. Scarcity, at least initially, would be a decent excuse for higher point cost. XD

 

Going back to the Aggressors, though, I think one of the others said it best--they're a better melee deterrent than a melee aggressor, ironically to the name. I think they, more than any other SM model in the game cries out for a cheap transport. We might actually have a decent punchy option at that point.

[Dracos]

 ... and that Lore had them protecting Terra and the Emperor ... which is where their shiny asses belong, instead suddenly galavanting around because a freaking Primarch showed his face. Sorry boys, but I'm just an old 2nd edition fogey who believes things like the Primarchs, Custodes and Lords or War don't belong on a 40k table.

 

(Uh that Knight. What Knight? You must be suffering from the Warp Brother. ;))\

 

 

Ishagu's right about the setting having been stagnant too long. I'm sure after a few years being back in the game I'll adapt :) Until then though I'd still like to see this thread get back On Topic. Owning up to my own culpability for any derailing what should be a discussion on how to make Aggressors work as a viable melee unit.

 

I do think that this is one unit that you HAVE to take their shooting ability into account as part of their melee effectiveness. With no AP wiping anyone off the board with shooting is a gamble, but followed up with a strong assault (which is why 4+ is a minimum unit size) means they are a threat to anything short of a Land Raider IMO.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Things change... they really do. There’s an excellent novel that explains why Custodes decide to send some offworld support and is has nothing to do with Guilliman. Hetguard will always remain on Terra to protect the Emperor because that’s what they do. Historical tells us they have fought off world at least since the Heresy - an example is supporting Word Bearers. Not wanting to accept change is not a good basis for dissing most anything. The points you spend on Aggressors is better spent on more effective units... that’s just the way it is.

[autek mor]

the aggressors are too static for melee and they lack transport options unless you are playing deathwatch. plus its not always a given that the unit will survive an assault from a dedicated assault blob if you don't kill enough enemies in overwatch.