Aggressors: As Melee Units?!

[Subtleknife]

If there was a cheap transport then I reckon they could be very good. Until that happens they are far too slow.

[Ishagu]

They don't have enough attacks to truly excel in melee as they stand. Perhaps if they didn't suffer a penalty to hit in close combat.

 

The unit itself is decent. It needs a 2+ save and the Repulsor needs a point drop of 50 or more points.

[Dracos]

Actually I forgot that suggestion. No sense that the Gallant gets an extra attack for two melee weapons and Aggresssors don’t. Same would apply to Centurions.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The Ironclad gets a baked-in Reroll 1s to hit when equipped with two CCWs. So there is a precedent in the Codex for that.

[Schlitzaf]

So pardon the bump but I have now played a few with my Aggressors when used as melee units

 

1) 5+D6 Move is annoying. You want them in front but slower movement makes that a tad frustrating

2) 3 Man is too small. Dies to chaff fire too easily and losing each single model reduced output considerbly

3) 5 Man is solid. More accurately at I lose a man early in game but remaining 4 Aggressors wiped two squads, and killed a unit of Crisis. Through I think 4-5 Man is correct

4) They are an aggressive defensive unit. Slower than many traditional line units (Crusaders, Tacticals and Assault Marines), meaning if those squads are advancing your average an inch slower. Also you cannot take a charge (unless flamestorm) as hitting on 4’s is annoying unless you get below around 9-11 attacks. (At 9-11 attacks you hit around 5 times wound 4 times and killing 3 marines sometimes 4 while at 7 attacks you only kill around 2). Every model left in Squad = 1 Dead MEQ in Melee.

5) They are amazing at enforcing honesty or pressure. A issue many melee armies and units without packs is that you must spend atleast one sometime two turns advancing. That means you are ignoring half your turn for first two turns potentially (shooting and assault). The enemy can then basically act laissez flair essentially meaning that can act and move without care of being severely punished. Aggressors change that dynamic while only 30 Bolter Shots (-7.5ish per model remove or added), it’s 30 Bolter shots or 3 dead marines or most of combat squad. 2 Man Squad While still deadly because double specials is much easier to shift. And dies 6 Bolter Wounds or 18 shots (a tactical squad in rapid). Or more relevance it will on average die to a five man naked tactical squad in rapid fire range.

6) Large Base Size. This means you might get only 2 maybe 3 models in combat against characters and small squad see while the difference between 7 and 9-11 attacks is a big deal. It also means you cannot slip them between squads you have to dedicated positioning to them.

7) T5. Overplasma no longer kills on 2+. (2 > 1.32 > 0.88 > 0.62). Overplasma killrate compared to a T4 is reducing by 33%. If you are shot with 4 plasmas, on average only 1 (Well one and half) Aggressors will die. That means opponent needs to dedicate 8 plasma shots to kill so they need units in 12” range or 3-4 squads at long.

8) multidamage strength 8. Most units and tanks are only T7. And few is any are T8 (Knights, Raiders and Repulsors). While RNG fun is RNG, the fact wounding means you removing 6-8 Wounds is a god send. Taking the above example. 10 attacks, 5 Hits > 2.5 or 3.32 Wounds > then 2 or 3 Wounds post save. That is above 5-8 damage. Killing Dreads, bringing most units down a teir, and more. The threat is powerful, as it can keep models with no IV but a lot Wounds like Knights far away.

9) Fragile. While I noted the T5, the T5 protects only from Bolter, Plasma, Missiles, Grav/HvyBolter, And Melta. Of those only Plasma, Bolter And Heavy Bolter are relavent. Strength 6&7 Weapons still wound on 3+. And StR 3 hasn’t is the same. Aggressor are good at facing Razorspam CombiPlasma style lists. Otherwise your a Bike Squad (durability) and a lot slower.

 

To summarize the above

Aggressors as Melee

Are Aggressive should be the second wave (slow movement means they are high likely not to make it in charge. 24” - 13.5 = 10.5. While Crusaders/Tacticals/Etc for example are 24 - 15.5 = 8.5. Meaning only needing an 8” charge to Aggressors 10”). And poor receivers of charge. Due to -1 hit and losing models quickly reduced effectiveness

Are durable but fragile. While many common weapons are far weaker against aggressors, a lot of weapons are same as if Aggressors were T4

Existence is a threat and boon onto itself for melee forces. A glorified distraction carnifex would not be wrong. Forces enemy to be honest and respect you while also representing threats to mech. So if an enemy tries to bumper car it won’t be as effective.

 

All in all Aggressors are not Sanguinary Gaurd or Wulfen. But as a melee unit when used and utilized properly are acceptable. Being able to act as “mid-teir” Assault Units for reasonable price better than other Codex Marine Units.

[Dracos]

Schlitzaf thanks for the actual in-game low down. It seems to coorespond with theoryhammer :) Aggressors are effective ... but need a Grav-Rhino as a dedicated transport to really be efficient for non-Raven Guard Chapters (and even RG really so as to save CP). 

 

 

 

GW? .... Hello? Anyone out there listening? There's money to be made here guys.

[Panzer]

4) [...] Every model left in Squad = 1 Dead MEQ in Melee.

Actually a bit less considering that you still have to roll to wound and the opponent still has a 6+ save against their fists.

 

 

5) They are amazing at enforcing honesty or pressure. A issue many melee armies and units without packs is that you must spend atleast one sometime two turns advancing. That means you are ignoring half your turn for first two turns potentially (shooting and assault). The enemy can then basically act laissez flair essentially meaning that can act and move without care of being severely punished. Aggressors change that dynamic while only 30 Bolter Shots (-7.5ish per model remove or added), it’s 30 Bolter shots or 3 dead marines or most of combat squad. 2 Man Squad While still deadly because double specials is much easier to shift. And dies 6 Bolter Wounds or 18 shots (a tactical squad in rapid). Or more relevance it will on average die to a five man naked tactical squad in rapid fire range.

That's probably their most redeeming point. However then again if you think about it, unless you run against T8 you can just not move and do more damage with your double shooting Boltstorm + fragstorm than you'd do with your fists (3 Aggressors deal 3.89 damage with fists and 4.07 damage with double shooting aganist T7 Sv3+).

In my eyes that makes them a better short-mid range shooting unit than a melee unit. ^^

 

Oh and it's 9.5 Bolter shots per model on average. 6 from the Boltstorm gauntlets and 3.5 from the Fragstorm grenade launcher.

 

7) T5. Overplasma no longer kills on 2+. (2 > 1.32 > 0.88 > 0.62). Overplasma killrate compared to a T4 is reducing by 33%. If you are shot with 4 plasmas, on average only 1 (Well one and half) Aggressors will die. That means opponent needs to dedicate 8 plasma shots to kill so they need units in 12” range or 3-4 squads at long.

8) multidamage strength 8. Most units and tanks are only T7. And few is any are T8 (Knights, Raiders and Repulsors). While RNG fun is RNG, the fact wounding means you removing 6-8 Wounds is a god send. Taking the above example. 10 attacks, 5 Hits > 2.5 or 3.32 Wounds > then 2 or 3 Wounds post save. That is above 5-8 damage. Killing Dreads, bringing most units down a teir, and more. The threat is powerful, as it can keep models with no IV but a lot Wounds like Knights far away.

9) Fragile. While I noted the T5, the T5 protects only from Bolter, Plasma, Missiles, Grav/HvyBolter, And Melta. Of those only Plasma, Bolter And Heavy Bolter are relavent. Strength 6&7 Weapons still wound on 3+. And StR 3 hasn’t is the same. Aggressor are good at facing Razorspam CombiPlasma style lists. Otherwise your a Bike Squad (durability) and a lot slower.

Yeah they really aren't that durable. Terminators are more durable (T4 Sv2+ > T5 Sv 3+). The only reason why Terminators are less played than Aggressors is because Terminators are even more expensive if they want to do proper melee (TH/SS) and can't shoot while they're out of melee.

[Ishagu]

Terminators are slightly more durable but also more expensive and have far less firepower. Less worthwhile as there are no charge guarantees from reserve and they require transports just as pricey :-(

[Dracos]

At least Termies actually get an extra attack for two combat weapons. :(

 

... and I’d take 2+/5+ any day but then that’s why they cost more. Not sure they’re more effective overall but they do beat Aggressors as a melee unit. Give me a Primaris version and I’ll buy 10. Yeah right. I’ll get the Grav-Rhino first (meaning never)

[Panzer]

At least Termies actually get an extra attack for two combat weapons.

 

... and I’d take 2+/5+ any day but then that’s why they cost more. Not sure they’re more effective overall but they do beat Aggressors as a melee unit. Give me a Primaris version and I’ll buy 10. Yeah right. I’ll get the Grav-Rhino first (meaning never)

 

Actually that's a Lightning Claw thing and some other few weapons. GW should really generalize that again imo

 

Also Primaris Terminators (aka 2+ armor and deep strike) yes please! I wouldn't mind them looking completely different than Terminators either since I really don't like the Terminator models anyway (except some few like the GK, DA and SW ones).

[Ishagu]

5 rapid fire plasma guns kill the same number of Termies as Aggressors. I'm not convinced there's any real distinction between them in terms of durability.

[Panzer]

Well yeah Plasma is the exact spot where there's no difference in durability. It's the MEQ/TEQ killer weapon after all.

Against Hellblaster and real anti-tank weaponry Terminators are more durable again tho since there their 5++ kicks in and against less potent weaponry they're more durable as well.

[Ishagu]

They definitely fare better against Auto cannons because of the natural 2+

 

They are certainly overpriced however. Aggressors have the right rules and weapons but the Repulsor's cost really hurts them. That tank needs a 50-80 point drop

[Panzer]

I don't think anybody would disagree about Terminators being overpriced and more limited. ^^

[Dracos]

True that for Centurians too - which I would use in a Primaris army after making the legs a tad longer.

 

Truly curious if the over pointcosting on old school units was a ploy to sell Primaris models? Even the Intercessors are generally seen as ok for their points compared to Tacticals. The second wound being largely useless with all the 2w weapons.

 

I wonder what 2019 brings for Marines.

[Tokugawa]

Aggressors just got a "100%" rules boost recently.

 

Once there was only one army which could run them effectively: Raven Guard.

 

Now there are two: Raven Guard and Deathwatch.

 

Nothing to bother.

[Panzer]

True that for Centurians too - which I would use in a Primaris army after making the legs a tad longer.

 

Truly curious if the over pointcosting on old school units was a ploy to sell Primaris models? Even the Intercessors are generally seen as ok for their points compared to Tacticals. The second wound being largely useless with all the 2w weapons.

 

I wonder what 2019 brings for Marines.

 

I disagree. There are lots of D2 and D1d3 weapons out there but not enough to make the second wound "largely useless". If that were the case then Intercessors would be seen as even worse than Tacticals considering they're even more expensive and can't take any special or heavy weapon. There are still plenty of D1 weapons out there so Intercessors are considerably more durable.

Aggressors just got a "100%" rules boost recently.

 

Once there was only one army which could run them effectively: Raven Guard.

 

Now there are two: Raven Guard and Deathwatch.

 

Nothing to bother.

 

Deathwatch does everything Primaris better than others tho. It's not called Primawatch for no reason, SIA and mixed units is just sick. Not to mention the Stratagems they have available.