Crusader Squads... once again

[HighMarshalAmp]

Sooo I've got that one Crusader Squad left from way back when there was a Troops Tax - and it feels like a waste of points since I want my Templar units to make use of their Chapter Tactic. And the FauxDevi route doesn't appeal to me either because I like to have some bubblewrap in a unit to protect the fancy guns...

But the Crusaders have one more trick up their sleeve - a second Power Weapon!
With two Power Axes and Chainswords, a MSU Crusader Squad will almost cause as many wounds as a Tac Squad with Plasma Gun and Grav Cannon between 12" and 24" - that's in the fight and shooting phase, respectively. (Edit: and I didn't even count the pistol shots of the Templars. I should do that.)

So to me, that sounds like something I'd like to try... [Edit: BUT I think I need to add in a little disclaimer here: Neither do I think this will make them a good CC unit nor do I think there aren't better ways to fill a troops tax.

I just think it is a side of Crusader Squads I haven't really considered before and would like to hear your thoughts about it.

Soo...] Any thoughts?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I had a go once, and while the theory is ok, the reality was that the marine attrition rate in getting to melee meant that the amount of troops that made it there was less than effective. But worth playing around with alongside transports?

 

Now queue someone else telling you it's a stupid idea using something that reads like a mathematical dissertation...

[MyD4rkPassenger]

I play at the utmost casual level so before I'm ripped a new one about marine competitiveness, disclaimer stated.

 

I love putting two 5 man squads with two power weapons in a LRC with the EC and a chaplain.  I've found it puts out a solid amount of attacks and has that templar feel.  Plus if they live what they charge, they can go and claim two different objectives for instance.

[HighMarshalAmp]

I'm mostly playing at both the most uncompetitive and most competitive level of all time - against my own army!

Living room games with my GF for whom I've specced a kick-ass army I now have to go up against.

 

On a more serious note though, these are the numbers.

This is against MEQs, the numbers are the average wounds the squad will cause per turn, damage not considered.

I'm assuming that the Squads are each where they want to be, which is within 12" and within 1", obviously, and that they have moved in the preceding movement phase.

I'm counting down from full strength (5 guys) to 2 guys, when only the Sergeant and the one with the fancy weapon are left standing.

 

Crusader Squad (2 Power Axes, Chainswords, Plasma Pistol, Bolt Pistols)

2,37 - 2,04 - 1,7 - 1,37

 

Tactical Squad (Plasma Gun part of a Combi-Plasma, Grav Cannon, Boltguns)

2,52 - 2,30 - 2,07 - 1,85

 

So the Crusaders start in the ballpark of what is the most efficient MSU (Edit: MSU Tac Squad) load out against MEQs, but degrade more heavily.

Still, that's close enough for my taste to spec my one Squad that way.

And if I like how they perform, two might follow for a nice Battalion.

 

Yeah, getting them from a to b might be a pain, I'm still working on that...

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'd go Rhino over LRC, cheaper and can take the Overwatch. (Razorbacks are more useful as gun platforms)

[Honda]

1. I use crusader squads all the time, though I've stopped taking >10 for the most part because of leadership tests.

 

2. I almost always include a powerfist, because old school and it always seems to come in handy. I also take a power sword or axe.

 

3. I don't play competitively (i.e, tournaments), but I do play against tough armies.

 

4. I still think there's a place for crusader squads in our army.

 

5. Our group mostly plays larger scale games.

 

Since everyone seems to have an opinion about this, I'll share mine.

 

It doesn't make sense to me to pick out one unit in a list and then base an opinion on how that army works (or not) based on that one unit. Armies are holistic entities, the  whole greater than the sum of their parts. It is possible that Templars just scale up better than other armies. It's possible that our experiences differ because if I don't have 50-70 MEQ or greater boots on the ground, I think we are introducing a weakness to how the list operates.

 

We are a bludgeon. We are blunt force trauma. We are a smash, grab, and hold army. In many ways, we are much like the Imperial Romans, who used to defy you to stop them at accomplishing their goals. In a lot of battle reports I view, I don't see a lot of that in gaming, fighting to take the initiative. I see a lot of reactionary playing. I don't think our strength is in reacting to how other army's play, that's more of an  Eldar characteristic.

 

Another thing I've noticed with our army is that in larger games, it's a lot less about what you bring and more about what you do with what you bring, assuming you don't introduce an obvious weakness (e.g. no AT).

 

When we ignore our synergies, we ignore what makes us strong.

 

My two yen.

[Tokugawa]

Power weapon on an A1 model.

 

Meh.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

MSU cc crusaders can work pretty well. The problem is, that already just losing one model hurts their damage output. Another problem is, that they probably won't be dealing damage before the second turn.

 

This leads me to my two basic principles for using MSU Crusaders:

 

1. Don't make them a target

• use cover/LoS-blocking
• use transports
• deep strike
• offer meatier targets

2. Make them hurt what they hit

• target selection (not just the first, but also the second third etc.)
• numbers (multiple squads/ assisting characters)
• equipement

 

I personally prefer to throw in a neophyte or two, for dispensable wounds.

 

In general: much depends on the pts-level, local meta (opponent) and the composition of the rest of your army.

[HighMarshalAmp]

@Honda I'm going for a lot of infantry (exclusively Infantry in fact, if I can manage), but my Templars are only the CC wing of the army. Obviously.

But I have Jump Packed veterans and HQs for the heavy hitting, I'm not trying to build an army around Crusader Squads. In fact, I'm really only trying to get some use out of the 15 models I need to get me 5 more CP.

The rest of my forces will have their own tactics help them in doing to their jobs - which means that I have several Tac Squads doing a better job at shooting than the Templars.

 

And that's not even accounting for the feeling of the Chapters. I want my Templars to punch their foes, goddammit! I just want them to not fall completely behind their brethren in terms of output...

 

@Marshal_von_Speer I want them to hurt what they hit, but since their main job is getting me those CP, I hope they will draw some fire. Also, if they bog down an enemy unit for even one turn, I'll be glad already - there are plenty of guys waiting to shoot other guys from far away on my side of the table :)

 

@Tokugawa If I take that one axe away and give the guy a Chainsword instead, then the Squad will deal 0,07 wounds less per turn.

 

I have to agree with 'Meh', that's not worth it at all. 4 Chainswords it is then.

Also, that means I don't have to buy as many overpriced Power Axes on eBay :)

[arigatous]

Mathematically speaking, Power Axe Initiate doesn't make any sense. You're basically paying extra points to get less efficiency while trading 2 CS attacks for one PA attack.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15Vv6eTKOU9PLcreTEafA_u4wXin2rq81nrel29sKFc8/edit#gid=0

[HighMarshalAmp]

Mathematically speaking, Power Axe Initiate doesn't make any sense. You're basically paying extra points to get less efficiency while trading 2 CS attacks for one PA attack.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15Vv6eTKOU9PLcreTEafA_u4wXin2rq81nrel29sKFc8/edit#gid=0

Yep, I had gotten there in my last post as well, but thanks!

[Schlitzaf]

You shouldn’t really use the Power Ax on SB either tbh.

13 Points > 3 > 2 > 1 > 0.33

18 Points > 2 > 1.32 > 0.88 > 0.58ish.

 

This is a good value, your paying 5 points to double damage. But look at it this way.

 

11 > 7.32 > 3.66 > 1.22

8 > 5.32 > 2.66 > 0.7 + 0.58 = 1.28

 

For the additional 5 points (or 7%) you are only getting an effective increase damage of actual relative Squad damage by 4.7% Basically your return investment relative to Squad size is marginal. You are spending points at half efficiency. In contrast take 5 naked Vang.

 

80 Points (Vangaurd)

16 > 10.66 > 5.33 > 1.78

 

Here we are spending 15 points or 27% for a relative damage increase of 45%! This is why MSU Crusader Squads are terrible for Melee. Espacially when kitted out. Your bang for your buck is so marginal it’s basically pointless.

 

Your paying for tax troops. Which are just bluntly better as Scouts. 65 points deploy anywhere, and have Heavy Bolters. Crusader Squads are amazing troops, but you got the play the strengths to them. Either as tides where they can take, defend and clear objectives (that is where double melee is good. As you are spending 5% for an increase of around 4%.

 

Tide Squad (14)

29 > 19.32 > 9.66 > 3.22 (Chain)

26 > 17.33 > 8.66 > 2.89 + 0.55 > 3.44 (SB)

24 > 16 > 8 > 2.66 + 0.84 > 3.50 (SB+INIT)

(Subtract 0.11 if you want to see how Init w/Spec)

 

Now here we have a couple things at 200ish points you are spend 4 (2%) points (SB) by .20 or overall a 6% increase in damage. So that is points in our favor. The other 4 (2%) points you spend increase your damage output 0.06 or 2%. That means spending 4 points on Init and SB (4%) equates to 8% increase in damage. Admittedly that is due to the SB. But the point here. Is that larger tide squads because they have raw attacks already. Don’t actually notice how on a model by model basis power sword initiate is less efficient.

 

Basically MSU Crusaders are incredibly inefficient for melee espacially if kitted out at all sense for a neophyte more you can get Vangaurd would be simply better and more efficient. While in contrast Tide Crusaders, for a variety of reasons are very efficient. And sense the overall Squad is larger the less efficient upgrades are ‘equaled’ out.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Called it!

[Schlitzaf]

Called it!

You realize? That Ari and Von posted before I did. And Ari has a spreadsheet. Also he asked for thoughts and opinions. I never said stupid I said inefficient. It’s not a bad concept, and his idea even utilized the best way to do so. Swift and rapid insertion via transports. It’s just not worth upgrading the squads. And then it’s just a tax troop in which case scouts are fundamentally better. It’s just MSU Melee Crusader Squads don’t offer anything. That isn’t better and more efficiently achieved elsewhere. If run naked MSU Crusaders as a Bat Fill, do you value the 3+ save that much? Secondly would you ever take naked Assault marines to fill a brigade tax

 

You could, they certainly have their place (hiding in Razors or Rhino to counter assault) because 65 points at 15 STR 4 AP 0 attack’s And 1 Strength 6 AP -1 will on initial turn will kill 2 MeQ’s. Or 5 GeQ’s then battleshocking another 2. Meaning they are good chaff and threaten MSU MeQ Squads trying to hold backfield. It’s just a main assault force they are quite useless to underwelming. Proper tool for the proper job.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Ari was only talking about Power Axes, which are, as he points out, disappointing weapons, (which is a shame as it's a cool part of the BT upgrade kit and I have several of them modelled.)

The only numbers in Von's post are the two halves of his list.

 

Own it Schlitzaf, it's your thing, and although I don't understand it half the time, it is extremely in depth, and always meticulously accurate.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Guys, guys, guys!

Another thread I had started about Crusaders took a similar turn, and not for the better, so let me just say something right now:

 

As you've pointed out, my Crusader Squads (one of them almost done, two merely hypothetical) are nothing but tax!

So while I don't want them to be useless, I don't expect them to be my most valuable players either!

 

Comparing them to any other unit thus really, really goes beyond this thread's scope.

 

Now again, I have hundreds of points of specialized units ready to go, loads of Space Marine infantry kitted out to make the best use of their chapter tactics and with a role to perform on the field that plays to said tactics.

And keeping with the feel of the Chapter they're drawn from!

 

So would Vanguard Vets be better than MSU Crusaders - I should hope so, there's 10 of them on my table waiting to get painted!

 

But I want some Melee oriented Crusaders as well to keep with the feel of the Black Templars while getting a full Battalion of them!

I want 15, not 30, not 45, just 15 fluffy figurines to get me 5 CP.

So stuff like the Power Axe on the Sword Brother being overcosted and inefficient just isn't relevant to me!

What matters is that it's an angry Space Knight wielding a Big :cuss Axe!

So that's worth these 5 points to me - and btw, with that axe, the Squad will still cause an average of 0,26 wounds more in melee against the loads of MEQs I'll be facing, which is something I'm on board with.

 

Also, Scouts being the better option to fill that tax may be more sensible, but I want Initiates, not Neophytes, so it isn't the better option for me!

 

To reiterate: any discussion about fine-tuning the 15 Crusaders I'd love to read.

But drawing comparisons between them and vastly superior units in their prospective field does nothing for nobody and has been done a million times before.

 

So tell me to drop the Sword brother's Axe and I'll say 'Nah, I like him better with it' and we can have a quick chat about zealous style.

But tell me to drop the unit I've asked about and to take another one and why? Or to take double the number of Crusaders to make it worthwhile? Thank you, you are probably 100% correct, but it's just not what I'm after.

 

Blimey, that was some excessive use of bold letters... sorry if I come across as cranky, I don't mean to, I just want to keep this thread at the basically irrelevant level it started at.

I mean, Tac Marines for a troops tax, who does that these days?

[Schlitzaf]

So you made a thread declaring your intent to do something because you wanted a pat on the back?

[HighMarshalAmp]

So you made a thread declaring your intent to do something because you wanted a pat on the back?

Not quite - I wanted opinions on how to optimize it without changing what it is.

MSU Crusaders who use the BT tactics, and that implies a melee focus.

Not tide, since that ain't what I'm going for, not a kick-ass melee unit, since I don't think the Crusaders can deliver on that, but MSU melee Crusaders.

 

You know that old line 'To make the cauliflower taste even better, replace it with a Steak and serve while hot'?

I kinda want to know how to season my vegetables, not how to grill that steak.

 

If the only thing that can be said about this is 'sh*tty idea, and there's nothing that can be done to make it better' - or a pat on the back, as you put it - then yes, I guess I'm here for a pat on the back.

 

But stuff like 'put 2 bolters in there for better overwatch', 'try a Grav pistol', 'do xyz to make a FauxDevi Squad profit from the tactics as well' or whatever, something that might give them a little more oomph or durability and that I've missed, that's what I was hoping for.

If there's no such stuff, fine. Can't blame a guy for trying.

[Schlitzaf]

Then I misread the thread I thought this was you posting a relevation about MSU Crusaders. In this case, Flamers and CombiFlamers are both solid choices. They can move forward and support battlefield position. And even outside FauxDevi 10 points Heavy Bolters are amazing being able to off a half a marine while moving and usable with hellfire weaponry. And beyond that depending on Captain location you may think of a GravGun and GravPistol. Or more relavently spending the 16 points for double GravPistol or PlasmPistol. GravPistol is nice because it doesn’t require you have to reroll 1 Bro playing Babysit. And then you can use it on charge and after first round of combat use it on your following turn. (Honestly it’s one of those things I’d love to be able to take Grav or Plasm Pistol instead of Heavy or Special). While the unit will suffer from being able to strike well on the return blow, you are putting out a SB w/PowSword worth of attacks (17 points in value) while having a initiate worth of attacks every other turn.

 

The Flamers are nice because if inside Rhino Or Razors, you have a 17” 2d6 auto hit Bolter threat range and furthermore if you get charged within 8” you will roast weaker or less armored squads with promothium. Also you can advance to try and take objective while still roasting the enemy. Also the case of pistols and Flamers espacially pistols are relavent because MSU fundamental weakness is to interruption abilities, like counter attack or always strike first. The Pistols allow you to deal your damage in the shooting phase despite being in combat and ignoring the enemy ability to counter assault. This makes the both a good primary assault and good on the reception of charge. As unlike a power sword you will get a chance to use the pistols or Flamers.

 

Now of course hitting is another question with the pistols but what it fundmentally means is that for the cost of 1.2 Marine you are getting the value equivalent to around 1.5-1.8. Because you lose a bolt pistol shot but gain a power sword worth of attacks (actually better than power sword because strength 5 and multiple damage). Now I wouldn’t spend any more points because then your getting into Intercessor territory. Also you need a Razor or Rhino to carry them. Through at this stage the thing about MSU Squads And Melee, is I say their ineffective or bad simply because of how MSU and Melee interact.

 

MSU is smaller squads with concentrated firepower. Charging by nature will spread you out, cause you leave aura range. The Helm helps here but MSU Squads have difficulty congo’ing. So that makes it harder to stay in 9” bubble. Second is overwatch and interruption, smaller squads have less overall damage on a squad level if more on an army level. So you end up with situations where two squads connect one hits then interruption happens.

 

Now as I said in a post earlier MSU Tactical style Squads (even Chainbro Crusaders are) are best used as way to clear chaff and take objectives. But when using them as a fundamental line squad setup it’s where you fall apart. Melee Squads generally need to be line or squads able to receive a blow while dishing it out. The purpose being to prevent enemy forces from moving or reengaging elsewhere. MSU Melee Squads are fundamentally unable to do that. Instead they are the sweeper for something else. A Razor gunning them down while MSU finishes the job.

 

It’s all proper tool for the proper job. Now you mention Vangaurd, if you want the truth, naked Crusader Squads are better than Vangaurd. Once you take into account Neo’s. Now this particular advantage requires equal Neo/Init ratio Hence the usage of tide squads. But more relavently Vangaurd I mention here because they squad highlights a good use of MSU ChainBros. They cannot take a charge but you hold them in reserve (literally or metaphorically) then bring them in to finish the job. The best setup is 10 Pistols, on 5 Man. Simply to insure your attacks connect. Larger squads want all Chainsword sense they know they will ultimately connect.

 

And finally the squad here is a ‘tax’ because the purpose of these squads, is better filled elsewhere. But otherwise, it’s important to understand this 135 point ‘tax’ over Vang gives you the ability to interrupt two enemy actions twice with auspex, in death and counter. Or enabling you strike again one more time. And as long as you have units to utilize that it’s fine. Like the ten man Vangaurd for example.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Picking one useful point out of that last post to second, one of my Melee squads has a Combi-Flamer on the SB and it's worth the cost. I chose not to take a flamer on an initiate because you then lose the close combat attack from the Chainsword, and that was more useful to me than the flamer in circumstances when I want to get him into combat. But it's nice to have something useful to overwatch with when things go awry, and it's a nice softener on the way in to combat, seeing as it can be fired on the advance, and in an MSU, the flamer alone could possibly deal more hits than the rest of the squad's pistols.

[Othniel's Blade]

I feel like scrapping the flamer on my one CS with it and a combi. I have consistently rolled 1s for both, with 1s again on my CP re-roll. 4 games in a row. My dice need purging, I think.

[HighMarshalAmp]

I just realized that I never posted my last answer to this thread 

 

So in short, it said that I was gonna give one Squad a try in a small (600 pts, 48"x48") game and see how they would perform.

I haven't even painted the Chainswords and Pistols up yet, I just put the bolter guys on the board but my opponent was ok with that.

 

Skip to today:

they performed admirably 

 

In the first of two games, I had them advance the first turn. The Plasma toting Ultramarines behind them kinda drew the fire though, so - thanks to the deployment zones - I managed to tie down a Company Champion in CC very early and for the next two turns, clearing the way for the UMs he would otherwise have tied up himself, costing them at least one turn to fall back and Melta his face. In the end, only two of my guys were left and he was gone, so then they moved on to a battered Lieutenant and finished him off. The Sword Brother survived to the end of the game. So did the battered Lieutenant, but whatever...

 

In the second game, I managed to intercept the enemy Captain with them early on and in the next turn, a Squad armed with a Grav Cannon, Combi-Grav and one single Power Sword came to his aid after he'd lost 3 wounds...

That might just as well have been bad judgement on the opponent's side, but I was happy to take down his other Grav Squad from afar with the units that would probably have been the next target for the Squad that was now tie up in combat.

My Lieutenant got insta-zapped by a Melta weapon once again, but hey, at least my Captain who stood behind him made it to the end and the Tac Squad wit the Multi-Melta and my own Plasma Squad cancelled each other out in the next turn...

The enemy Captain took 3 Crusaders with him and it came down to a punch-up between my Sword Brother and the remains of the Tac Squad... that ended with one enemy Grav Cannon left standing. The game was over soon after, so much use that Cannon had been...

 

Overall, I felt that the Crusaders ability to tie enemies down (Edit: while repeatedly punching them in the face in both mine and my opponent's turn) hindered my opponent in his advance and notably reduced his firepower - and the Templars proved to be surprisingly durable at that.

But hey, if anyone runs straight towards a Captain - who is standing next to a 24" Heavy 4 Weapon - and survives, it's Templars, amirite?

Rerolling that charge once they came in range did help a lot though!

My opponent was hoping to get these dudes killed with the Grav Cannon and didn't move that squad at all - again, might have been a bad call.

 

I'll do that Squad the honor of painting their actual equipment true to wysiwyg and running them again.

Next time, they're gonna act as 'enablers' for my Jump Pack Captain I've never used before though, I'm looking forward to seeing that guy in action 

 

I'll paint up some more Tac Squads for other Chapters for now, but when they're done, I'll try adding in some more Melee Crusaders - maybe they'll have similar impact on larger games in larger numbers, it's worth a try.