Why won't GWS give Chaos full access to all Imperium's units

[antique_nova]

I don't understand why, because they've recently given chaos pretty much full access to the knights and they've given nidz their own guard to play with. So, why don't chaos get full access to the Astra Militarum codex bar the characters, because they're well within their rights and it would help to increase sales of the codex and I doubt that it would take sales away from other units. Of course you can take out conscripts and regular guardsmen and keep that to the good guys, because it makes more lore sense, but giving chaos tank commanders would make sense and giving them more access to the imperum's forgeworld stuff, because chaos own like half the mechanicum.

 

Also, right now the Armour book for chaos only gives chaos access to some units in the imperium codex 2, so that meas they get the inferior leman russes compared to the codex version and this hasn't been updated. So, Chaos are bummed out on plasma weaponary.

 

I'd also be fine if Chaos weren't allowed to use say Cadian doctrines or got something equivalent that is dependant on which god they support. It would be awesome to see nurgle leman russes etc.

[shandwen]

Honestly, it makes sense fluffwise that chaos doesn't get everything. Gameplay wise it makes sense they don't get everything. FW has R&H, which offers much of the IG to chaos, and with all the extras chaos gets I would hate to see what would happen if they got everything...

[40kChrista]

I agree with shandwen, they just don’t need everything. If anything, Chaos in general needs more unique demon engines and *maybe* Dark Mechanicus. Maybe.

 

Renegade Knights unfortunately don’t have marks, that would’be been good but I’m not complaining for getting an Index for free. This just means at some point I’ll get a Dominis and 3 Armigers to complete a Renegade Knight house with the other 2 Knights I already have.

 

Tank commanders aren’t needed, the R&H list isn’t disciplined soldiers of any kind. Just your average mutants insane from the whispers of Chaos.

 

On the iPad version of Index Imperium 2, Leman Russ tanks do have Grinding Advance. My Russ Punishers are happy.

[Khornestar]

I agree so far as Renegades and Heretics needs to be fully fleshed out into a real codex army. There aren't really even "real" chaos rules to replace all the things the army list is missing. A ramshackle force of mutants is just one form of a heretical army of mortals. There's no reason to exclude a more disciplined/coherent force. It's been done in the past (6th/7th edition and 30k both), not particularly difficult. Options are nice. 

 

It didn't get much attention or time in its creation, one assumes based on the quality.

 

However, as far as the other stuff, I think a few units and upgrades here and there make sense (plasma cannons, multimeltas, thunder hammers/storm shields, and similar things that have been around since the heresy) but otherwise I'm glad CSM don't have everything the loyalists do. 

[Scourged]

Because a few reasons. First of which is a balance/army building reason. We don't get all of the Imperium toys because we have our own Chaos toys. Now, I know this was prompted as a R&H based discussion. And with 8th edition, R&H don't have as much of the shiny Chaos toys as they used to. No, they don't get Orders, but instead they have allegiances to the Chaos gods instead. Yeah, most of R&H is just copied from the Imperium... but it didn't used to feel like that. In 7th (though I never got a chance to play them), R&H felt like a real unique army. They had their own flavor, and beyond that, were so highly customizable. Now... they're just Guard but worse. So in that regard, I get what you mean... If it's just going to be a carbon copy of Guard, why not make it a full copy? 

 

Because a full copy is boring as feth. Now, at this point I'll focus on CSM, but all of my points will stand for all of Chaos where applicable. I don't give a crap about Land Speeders, Centurions, Razorbacks, and so on and so on. Why? Because we have our own stuff. As I've recently learned, Helbrutes are a great example. Sure, on the surface, they're just a Dreadnought. But... they're not. Weapon loadouts are different, sometimes even unique. Helbrutes move farther and have Crazed, but don't have the FNP rule or better BS of a Venerable. Helbrutes are a hybrid of loyalist Dreads, with a unique Chaos twist. And that's what so many - but not all - of our units should be. 

 

Our "Assault Marines" get different weapons and cause Leadership penalties. Our "Sternguard/Vanguard" are mixed together and can be kitted however we want. Our "Devestators" don't have plasma cannons but do have access to ancient autocannons. Whenever a loyalist unit is duplicated in a Chaos force, it needs to be twisted, changed... an odd shadow of its former self. Different, better in some ways, worse in others. Great example (if I remember correctly) is the Renegade Ogryn... no real guns to speak of, but oh man do they have fun in melee. And to let out a little secret? I would have been perfectly happy if our Renegade Knights were just a datasheet with updated points reductions. We didn't need Armigers or Dominus. Yes, it's nice to have them, and I won't scoff at such things. But we didn't need them. Say what you will about our superheavy, but we already have a Lord of Skulls for that slot. And if you include Forge World, we have a ton more. 

 

Would I like some of the things the loyalists have? Yes. Five points for a Storm Shield?! Sign me up! Sweet Tzeentchian Tentacles, if Chosen could take Storm Shields I would throw down half a paycheck on new units. Rules to make our Possessed as potent as Wulfen? Mm, Blood God yes! Thunder hammers? I mean... I guess...? It could be neat. Plasma cannons? I mean... do the loyalists even use them? So yeah, maybe one or two Imperial toys would be nice. But you know what would be nicer? Chaos toys. Bring back Kai guns. Let our troops use Warpflamers and Plaguespewers if they have appropriate marks. Daemon weapons! Create new weapons for Chaos. Why have a plasma cannon when our Havocs can wield a Blood Cannon, or Warp Cannon, or Distortion Beamer, or Mutation Ray, or a Cacophony Bombard, or a Blight Mortar, or so on?! 

 

But that leads into another point: "balance." Imagine a world where we had access to every Imperial unit. Neat, I guess. What happens then to our Daemon Engines? Or our Warp Talons? Obliterators? Mutilators ::chuckles::? All four of our cult units? Cultists? Would anyone trade Cultists for Scouts...? Anyway, my point is that it's hardly balanced if Chaos gets access to the full Imperium armory as well as all of the fun Chaos stuff. Then we're just Imperium with different units and 'chapter tactics.' What's the point? If we had all of the same toys, then we're just the same army. Hell... how many of our Legion Traits are just carbon copies of Chapter Tactics already? If I had full access to Imperium toys the only thing seperating my Alpha Legion from Raven Guard would be a paint job. 

 

You have to give something up to get something in return. That is, in a fun way, the essence of Chaos. We give up some survivabiliy for some firepower. We give up some shooting for some extra melee. We give up an armory for a sense of identity. We sacrifice our souls for power.  For years I've read through so many forums complaining that Chaos was just "loyalist  with spikes." Lately, it finally feels like we aren't, like we have a true sense of difference. The last thing I would want is a return to the bland days of fifth edition, which was just Loyalist -1. At the end of the day, yes, R&H needs a revamp to stand on its own legs more... but just copying Astra Millitarum is not the way to go. Same for the rest of Chaos. 

 

We'll never have all of the toys that Space Marines or the Guard do. It won't happen. And it shouldn't. But it won't happen because we're the bad guys. We're the enemies. We're the big threat in the galaxy. We're not the poster boys. We're not the giant statues outside stores and Nottingham. The loyalists are. And they're going to have things we don't, and much more of them. Their forces will be bigger. Their allies will be more numerous. But that's okay... having all those things will only make our victory over them that much sweeter. Besides, things could always be much, much worse: we could be a non-Aeldari Xenos faction. 

 

...sorry. That got a bit ranty. You all can blame that on the gin. But I stand by my words. 

 

Death to the False Emperor, my friends. 

[battle captain corpus]

Because then we wouldn't be "different"....we would just be normal Spez Mahreens with chains and spikes etc etc.

 

There are many reasons we don't have the same equipment. Maintenance, ammo etc. But also, again, from a gaming and collecting point of view you need to have variety to differentiate armies and collections some how. Otherwise it would be very boring indeed.

 

BCC

[Iron_Within]

I'm okay with not getting imperial stuff. I want *corrupted* stuff. Like daemon engines with hints of what they once was. Like octapedal Monsters with hints of an old imperial land speeder, daemonic rapid firing weaponry with a hint of a 30k rotor canon. That stuff I like the thought of: showing 10k years of repurposing and tinkering incorporating warp caddy to keep things going

[Kinstryfe]

I'm in the camp that Chaos is already too similar to Imperium and they need to move farther apart, not closer. Death Guard and Thousand Sons are steps in the right direction. Chaos shouldn't just be spiky imperial stuff. Even Renegades and Heretics, which is a long time favorite of mine, should be more different than it is. Daemon engines or possessed vehicles, infernal weapons, Dark Mechanicus stuff, creepy experiments, mutants. Not just spiky guard. So I think not having access to everything makes sense. If they do go all in on Chaos Guard, have it be its own thing and not just a couple new regimental doctrines for evil guard.

 

Chaos really should be spun into two factions. Chaos, for actual Chaos worshipping units like the 4 marked Legions and similar Warbands. They can be made up of Astartes and cultists fully in the thrall of Chaos, with all the gribbly goodness that that entails. Then spin the rest into renegades, for anti-Imperium but nonchaotic forces.

[Orpheus108]

I agree, getting daemon engine in all its weirdness, dark mechanicus cod3x would be fitting in with the fluff as some novels talk about forgeworld being corrupted to hellforges.

 

I'm a R&H player and just love to see it's own codex and a move away from a mirror of AM, yes once a world is conquered by chaos they have what AM is on the planet but it slowly corrupts and changes.

 

Pinstripe your right DG & TS are a move in the right direction in new chaos toys, look at the new toys DG got. For one, I'd love to see even a codex daemon engines/dark mechanics book and see all the weird glory chaos would bring