Librarian Dread, the Knight Slayer

[Diagramdude]

I've seen the Librarian Dreadnought overshadowed by Mephiston in a lot of threads, but I think he has a prominent place in BA lists if Knights start to become more prevalent in the meta. The S10 AP -4, 3 damage is perfect against the 3+ save w no invuln.

 

In my game yesterday... Libby dread cast quickening on himself (aided by a CP reroll), Mephiston nearby buffed him w/ unleash rage. Made the charge onto a knight with 20 wounds left. Used Wisdom of the Ancients for reroll 1s and red rampage. Rolled a 2 and a 2 for red rampage and quickening, so I had 3+2+2+1 = 8 attacks. Hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s. Connected 7 wounds, asked if the Knight had any source of invulns, count 21 wounds onto the Knight. Dead.

 

The libby dread is an absolute beast!

[Panzer]

The Librarians problem is the low amount of attacks and lacking invulnerable save to be able to take a hit from something equally devastating.

The low amount of attacks can get helped with a good roll for Red Rampage and psychic powers and if it happens it's awesome (killed an unwounded Archon with him in my last game thanks to rolling +3A for Red Rampage) but if you roll only +1A then he'll struggle and probably get killed in return.

 

No doubt a Librarian Dread can damage a Knight a LOT but it takes a lot of support for him to solo one so better chip the Knight down with some Lascannons and/or Mortal wounds  before doing the charge.

A Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Captain does basically the same just slightly worse but more reliable and has his own Invul save to maybe last more than one round if you fumble your rolls. Without any outside support or psychic powers a TH Captain does about 5.19 damage and a Lib Dread does about 6.25 damage on average. With full support (psychic powers +1A, Red Rampage +2A, re-rolling 1s to-hit) a TH Captain does about 9.07 damage and a Lib Dread does about 17.78 damage. And I'm not even talking about Captain Smash here (so no D4 hammer, death visions, double fighting shenanigans). Captain Smash with psychic support would deal about 13.82 damage and then can fight again regardless of whether he survives or not.

The point here tho is that the Captain is much more reliable. He doesn't need to get 3 psychic powers off to reach full mobility and full damage output (4 if you care about an invulnerable save for the Dreadnought which the Captain has a better one of anyway) and is easier to position thanks to his smaller base (and being able to drop from reserves and then charge 3d6). On the other hand the Captain needs a lot more CP to reach its full potential ... then however he can solo a Knight when fighting twice unlike the Librarian Dreadnought (assuming the LibDread becomes your Warlord too then its fully buffed damage goes up to 23.7)

[Kallas]

With Red Rampage/Quickening, it's worth dropping the Reroll on to it if you roll a 1 for extra attacks, as it's got the potential to be far more useful than rerolling a hit or wound (which can only meet your maximum potential damage: RR/Quickening increase your maximum, and average).

 

I think the Librarian Dreadnought is absolutely viable. In with a mixed force as a quick reaction unit, it can happily smack a Knight around. With reroll 1s from Wisdom of the Ancients, a Lib Dread averages 2.4 failed saves; RR/Q each (pr together if you roll poorly!) add an average of 1.6 more.

 

It looks like a solid Warlord too, as Artisan of War amps up its damage. Then it's an untargetable T7/8W Character.

 

@Panzer: you're right that full speed Captain Smash will do the job better (though Red Thirst does only take Smash to wounding on 3+) but the Librarian Dreadnought is still a viable choice.

 

For starters, it's not an either/or, you can have both. The LD is a great beater to have supporting other units while Smash tears off Knight arms (or even supports Smash!).

 

 

Edit:

Actually, how is the Captain getting +3A from Psychic support? He can only get +1 (Unleash Rage).

[Panzer]

With Red Rampage/Quickening, it's worth dropping the Reroll on to it if you roll a 1 for extra attacks, as it's got the potential to be far more useful than rerolling a hit or wound (which can only meet your maximum potential damage: RR/Quickening increase your maximum, and average).

 

I think the Librarian Dreadnought is absolutely viable. In with a mixed force as a quick reaction unit, it can happily smack a Knight around. With reroll 1s from Wisdom of the Ancients, a Lib Dread averages 2.4 failed saves; RR/Q each (pr together if you roll poorly!) add an average of 1.6 more.

 

It looks like a solid Warlord too, as Artisan of War amps up its damage. Then it's an untargetable T7/8W Character.

 

@Panzer: you're right that full speed Captain Smash will do the job better (though Red Thirst does only take Smash to wounding on 3+) but the Librarian Dreadnought is still a viable choice.

 

For starters, it's not an either/or, you can have both. The LD is a great beater to have supporting other units while Smash tears off Knight arms (or even supports Smash!).

 

 

Edit:

Actually, how is the Captain getting +3A from Psychic support? He can only get +1 (Unleash Rage).

 

Ah my bad, I added Quickening to the equation. He does about 13.83 damage still tho and is much more reliable since he doesn't need 3 psychic powers to reach his full mobility and damage output.

I'll edit the damage values of the Captains in my post. Thanks for pointing it out!

 

The Librarian Dread is great, no doubt. I just wanted to highlight that one shouldn't expect him to solo Knights. Do some prep work with ranged stuff  first before you charge in or you'll end up with a destroyed Librarian Dread and still living Knight.

Also it's an either/or to some degree since you can't apply Stratagems and Psychic powers to both of them at once unfortunately.

[Karhedron]

Blood Angels have plenty of good tools available to take a Knight out. The problem is going to come when you are facing an army of them as multiples are going to be hard to shift. If Knights make it big in the meta, I can see Hammernators making a come back as an obvious counter.

 

I am trying to work out how well DC can counter Knights. Basic Chainswords wound on a 5+ thanks to Red Thirst but I think a sprinkling of Thunder Hammers are really going to be necessary to do signiifcant damage to Knights. An DC marine with TH will put about 3 wounds on the knight on average on the charge (slightly more if you have Lemartes arnour for rerolls. Not enough to drop one from scratch but enough to help Captain Smash or to finish off a wounded Knight. Sanguinary Guard might be able to put in some good work too, especially with Fists.

[Diagramdude]

I'd really happy that we have so many strong HQs vying for a spot in the list. Since many of us are going to run at minimum double battalion, that is 4 HQ slots that need filling.

 

Capt. Slam of course makes the cut, and at least one psyker should get in too, so either Mephiston or the Libby dread here. Personally I take Capt Slam, Mephiston, and the Libby dread. My main point is the Libby dread is not necessarily needing to play second fiddle to Meph. The AP -4, flat 3 damage, and internal rerolls from Wisdom of the Ancients makes him a unique threat in his own right.

 

Also, as a character, if the dread fails to kill the Knight and gets squashed in return, Only in Death Does Duty End let's him swing for probably the kill.

[Majkhel]

Libby dread is also not infantry, so tri-locking the Knight (with rhinos? Other dreads?) gets possible if you're unable to kill in one turn.

[Panzer]

I don't think Marines have a realistic possibility of tri-locking Knights thanks to their stomping.

[Diagramdude]

If you do manage to trilock the Knight with non-infantry, it cannot fall back and it cannot shoot. Worth considering!

[Paladin777]

Is there anything that would prevent someone from using Death Visions on a librarian dreadnaught? If not, then using that plus gift of foresight would make for one tough librarian plus an extra attack on the charge.

[Kallas]

Is there anything that would prevent someone from using Death Visions on a librarian dreadnaught? If not, then using that plus gift of foresight would make for one tough librarian plus an extra attack on the charge.

Yes: the wording of Death Visions. Captain, Lieutenant and Chaplains only.

[Paladin777]

Ok. I didn’t have my codex on me and thought it might be worth bringing to to discussion, darn.

[Jolemai]

Ok. I didn’t have my codex on me and thought it might be worth bringing to to discussion, darn.

Nothing wrong with that :)

[Indefragable]

So a line Astartes who has 1A gets mortally wounded and put in a Dreadnought. This magically gives him 4A.

 

A Librarian who has 3A base gets mortally wounded and put in a Librarian Dreadnought, increasing his base attacks to....

 

 

<grumble grumble grumble>

[Xenith]

So a line Astartes who has 1A gets mortally wounded and put in a Dreadnought. This magically gives him 4A.

 

A Librarian who has 3A base gets mortally wounded and put in a Librarian Dreadnought, increasing his base attacks to....

 

 

<grumble grumble grumble>

 

Line Astartes rarely, if ever, get dreaded. It's usually reserved for captains and the like, maybe an esteemed sergeant, if there was a free sarcophagus. It might have been more common during the heresy where dread chassis were abundant, and it wasn't particularly seen as an honour to be interred. 

[Kallas]

Line Astartes rarely, if ever, get dreaded. It's usually reserved for captains and the like, maybe an esteemed sergeant, if there was a free sarcophagus. It might have been more common during the heresy where dread chassis were abundant, and it wasn't particularly seen as an honour to be interred.

Being interred in a Dreadnought sarcophagus is an honour for Astartes that go above and beyond. It's not 'reserved' for Captains et al, and in fact might actually be that line Astartes are interred far more - quite simply, line Astartes will die/be mortally wounded far more commonly than a Captain.

[Xenith]

 

Line Astartes rarely, if ever, get dreaded. It's usually reserved for captains and the like, maybe an esteemed sergeant, if there was a free sarcophagus. It might have been more common during the heresy where dread chassis were abundant, and it wasn't particularly seen as an honour to be interred.

Being interred in a Dreadnought sarcophagus is an honour for Astartes that go above and beyond. It's not 'reserved' for Captains et al, and in fact might actually be that line Astartes are interred far more - quite simply, line Astartes will die/be mortally wounded far more commonly than a Captain.

 

 

30+ years of background fluff disagree with you 

 

There might be a large number of gravely wounded tactical marines, however there are a finite amount of dreadnought sarcophagi. So few that the chapter is willing to risk the deaths of more marines to recover a lost dreadnought on the battlefield. 

 

Interment is not 'reserved' for captains, librarians, per se, but if both a captain and line marine are eligible for dread-ing, and there is only one sarcophagus available, do you really think that the the apothecary would harvest the captain and dread the tactical marine?

[Charlo]

So going back to Librarians VS Knights, as a new Knight player myself, there are a lot of factors to consider...

 

To get that Libby dread to get within killing range with it's attacks it takes a lot of resources: Strats, Psy Powers and other buffs are all included - not to mention you need to actually reach combat!

 

And then, if you whiff against the Knight, even if it's just a Crusader with Feet attacks you're looking at taking on average 4-5 damage from feet (assuming they struck back on a 4+) which is half of your dread now open to whatever horrific ranged retaliation. If you fight something with a Chainsword or Fist then it's even more dangerous - plus now Knights have good access to re-rolls, powerful mortal wound stratagems (Death Grip!) and invulns in combat.

 

The Libby Dread can do serious work, but it's a very glass cannon when against Knights. Even an Armiger Warglaive entourage will deal significant damage to it (who, if are near the big knight can heroically intervene for a low CP cost).

[Kallas]

30+ years of background fluff disagree with you

No, it doesn't. All Space Marines are impressive heroes in the fluff.

 

There might be a large number of gravely wounded tactical marines, however there are a finite amount of dreadnought sarcophagi. So few that the chapter is willing to risk the deaths of more marines to recover a lost dreadnought on the battlefield.

 

Interment is not 'reserved' for captains, librarians, per se, but if both a captain and line marine are eligible for dread-ing, and there is only one sarcophagus available, do you really think that the the apothecary would harvest the captain and dread the tactical marine?

Certainly, Captains are another level, but the attrition rate of Captains is far, far lower than that of regular Astartes; therefore it's more likely than a regular Astartes (considering regular to being up to non-Terminator Honours Astartes) will be in a position to need internment.

 

A Captain falling is much more rare. It would almost certainly be a case for internment, that I'm not disagreeing with, just that the likelihood of regular Astartes being interred is probably quite high, since those opportunities will come up more frequently.

[Kallas]

@Charlo: Yeah, Knights are all a serious threat. Especially that Paragon Gauntlet which will just straight up one-shot Dreadnoughts.

 

I do think Lib Dreads will be more of a finisher than simply soloing a Knight. If they can be kept safe from the Knights' shooting, they will cause some good damage.

[Diagramdude]

If the Libby Dread can get Quickening off and a nearby Librarian (Mephiston for me) gives it Unleash Rage, and successfully charge a basic T8 3+ Knight, I'd argue it can easily solo it. The basic Knight has no invulnerable save in melee, and the AP -4 cuts right through the 3+ save. The dread has to deal 8 wounds to solo-kill a 24 wound knight.

 

If you get Quickening off and charge with Red Rampage you are at 3 + 2D3 attacks. Another +1 if Unleash rage goes off. So you are looking at between at worse 5 and at best 10 attacks. You hit on 2's rerolling 1s from Wisdom of the Ancient, wound on 2's. With the help of CP rerolls to get to 8 or 9 attacks, it is possible that you can initally connect through 8 wounds for the kill, and almost assured that you get 8 through if the Knight doesn't die initially, swings back and kills the Dread, and then the Dread can fight again with Only in Death. 

[Panzer]

If the Libby Dread can get Quickening off and a nearby Librarian (Mephiston for me) gives it Unleash Rage, and successfully charge a basic T8 3+ Knight, I'd argue it can easily solo it. The basic Knight has no invulnerable save in melee, and the AP -4 cuts right through the 3+ save. The dread has to deal 8 wounds to solo-kill a 24 wound knight.

 

If you get Quickening off and charge with Red Rampage you are at 3 + 2D3 attacks. Another +1 if Unleash rage goes off. So you are looking at between at worse 5 and at best 10 attacks. You hit on 2's rerolling 1s from Wisdom of the Ancient, wound on 2's. With the help of CP rerolls to get to 8 or 9 attacks, it is possible that you can initally connect through 8 wounds for the kill, and almost assured that you get 8 through if the Knight doesn't die initially, swings back and kills the Dread, and then the Dread can fight again with Only in Death.

 

As I said above, fully buffed he does about 18 damage on average so you really need to let him fight again if you want to solo it.

[Kallas]

 

If the Libby Dread can get Quickening off and a nearby Librarian (Mephiston for me) gives it Unleash Rage, and successfully charge a basic T8 3+ Knight, I'd argue it can easily solo it. The basic Knight has no invulnerable save in melee, and the AP -4 cuts right through the 3+ save. The dread has to deal 8 wounds to solo-kill a 24 wound knight.

 

If you get Quickening off and charge with Red Rampage you are at 3 + 2D3 attacks. Another +1 if Unleash rage goes off. So you are looking at between at worse 5 and at best 10 attacks. You hit on 2's rerolling 1s from Wisdom of the Ancient, wound on 2's. With the help of CP rerolls to get to 8 or 9 attacks, it is possible that you can initally connect through 8 wounds for the kill, and almost assured that you get 8 through if the Knight doesn't die initially, swings back and kills the Dread, and then the Dread can fight again with Only in Death.

As I said above, fully buffed he does about 18 damage on average so you really need to let him fight again if you want to solo it.

 

To be fair, statistical averages are pretty mean to 2+. Then again, my dice are incredibly mean to 2+ as well so... :P

 

I think an Artisan of War Lib Dread would do solid damage, even with just Red Rampage or Quickening (3+d3 [5]*0.972*0.833*4 = 16 damage average), with both (3+2d3 [7]*0.972*0.833*4 = 22.6 damage [5.67 'failed' saves]).

 

As an additional benefit, a Librarian Dreadnought at least cannot get one-shot by a Sniper Oathbreaker Missile, so it's harder to lose your Warlord from that tactic (assuming they bring a Castellan/Valiant).

[Karhedron]

Quick question. Can you wait until you see you you to-Hit rolls before you decide whether to trigger Wisdom of the Ancients?

[Lucien Eilam]

30+ years of background fluff disagree with you 

 

30 years ago, dreadnoughts were typically piloted by able-bodied Imperial Army troopers.