Chainsweep, Death Grip, Thunderstomp all "immediately after"

[Diagramdude]

Chainsweep, Death Grip, and Thunderstomp are all worded as "Use this Stratagem immediately after fighting..."

 

Say my Gallant has just fought. It has a reaper chainsword and a gauntlet, it is eligible for all three stratagems. Can I use all three stratagems, one after the other, or do I have to pick only one because only one could be "immediately after." The second and/or third stratagem would be after that first stratagem and therefore not "immediately after."

 

Has this already been addressed in an FAQ?

 

From the core rules: 

 

Sequencing:

While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

[Paradigm]

I don't see why you could not do all three. They resolve as per the rules you describe. So you get to pick the order. The downside, is that if something dies, you have already spent command points that you wont get back and you can't change the declared target.

So in other words, you can spend all the command points and declare the targets. But if it dies from chainsweep, your knight is going to be squeezing and stomping a dead horse for nothing, and your command points are gone.

[Diagramdude]

Interesting, I didn't think of that angle, paying for all three up front, and resolving it in the order of my choosing. Makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

 

If my opponent also had stratagem(s) that keyed off of "immediately after" my Errant fought, would we both spend the CP simultaneously and then roll off for order? And if for some reason the enemy stratagem goes first and my knight is destroyed, do my stratagems get to resolve since they are happening at the same "instant?" Or do I lose my CP and not get to use the stratagems?

 

Feels like the codexes are introducing more and more nuanced/complex rules as the codex creep continues. Codex Space Marines had nothing like this :P

[Paradigm]

I think the way we'd play it at my FLGS is that once one of the units was dead it would end the chain. The resolution isn't simultaneous even if the trigger is, so even if the knights are trying to do all these things at once, the outcome may not be as expected. While a mid-swing sword would still fall if the bearer was shot during the strike, they wouldn't start kicking etc. It's also likely the sword blow would lose quite a bit of direction and intent. 

I'd think if it as a logical progression, or like a line of code.

So you have the trigger: end of combat,

end of combat = If [opponent does: chainsweep, or thunderstomp, or deathgrip] and [you do chainsweep, or thunderstomp, or deathgrip] then [if (opponent "d6") > (you "d6")] then [alternate beginning with opponent,] else [alternate beginning with you,] else do chainsweep, thunderstomp, deathgrip in your chosen order. 

 

So even if they trigger off the same thing, they still are read in a sequential fashion.


But discuss it with your opponent if there is a rules ambiguity and just come to an agreement. Even if it isn't what one of you wants, or is a compromise, as long as you are playing by the same rules, it won't matter much.

[Diagramdude]

Would be keen to know how the ITC would rule it, since I like to have certainty for building tournament lists.

[Lysere]

I see two ways of it working in my mind.

 

The first is as you said immediately after means only one can be used at the end of the knights activation.

 

Otherwise the wording is there to make it clear that the action is resolved with no chance for anything to interrupt it since it has to happen immediately. Essentially extending the knights activation for a bit.

 

Also you'd never take turns with someone else with these strats since it's at the end of a particular knights activation.

[frosteldar]

If I remember correctly, I do believe the stratagems also exclude one of the other, so you can't do all 3 in a turn- i.e. I think the Deathgrip stratagem states that you cannot use it if you already used Chainsweep.

[Felstone]

If I remember correctly, I do believe the stratagems also exclude one of the other, so you can't do all 3 in a turn- i.e. I think the Deathgrip stratagem states that you cannot use it if you already used Chainsweep.

 

It does not.

[Diagramdude]

Only the Krast Controlled Aggression has such stated limitations.

 

The part about sequencing in the side bar of the core rules to me suggests that you can declare all three and resolve as you choose, since they are three separate rules that are competing to take place at the same time

[frosteldar]

Thanks for clarifying!  I must have seen it on the Krast stratagem and gotten confused.

[Vel'Cona]

I'd say you can do all 3 on the same Knight assuming it meets the requirements and you have the CP available.  Resolve them in the order you choose to initiate the Strategems and do so 1 at a time so as not to overwhelm your opponent, and make your target selection clear (if applicable).

[Diagramdude]

Pay all three up front and resolve in series? Or pay each one at a time and resolve?

[Vel'Cona]

Pay all three up front and resolve in series? Or pay each one at a time and resolve?

 

The latter for clarity, and AFAIK this is how RAW implies, but it's not 100% certain.  I'll definitely be using this method, assuming I ever combine these Strategems this way.