Heresy era Legion in 8th edition?

[Vogon]

I’m sure this has been asked before but...

 

In my local gaming group it’s becoming increasingly difficult to arrange a 30K game after a couple of other 30K stalwarts left the area but I want to make as much use as possible of my Alpha Legion army.

What is the collective’s thought on the best way to represent a Legion in 8th? C-SM or C-CSM?

I know I will need to get the appropriate FW index as well.

 

I was thinking The Space Marine Codex as this would be closer to how they operated during the Heresy before chaos really set in. But then C-CSM allows for Legion sized units of marines.

 

Thoughts guys?

[Silas7]

Tough pick, one that I think is best answered by your head canon surrounding your XXth. I tend to think of mine as loyalists but that wouldn't stop me from using the C-CSM if i felt it allowed a better representation.

 

Will you be running all power armor?

Warp mutation being present in your models?

 

As for unit size you could "MSU" full sized tacticals and just move them in a psudo 20 man blob, leaving enough room so you don't forget where one squad ends and another begins when the time comes to remove troopers.

[Vykes]

Given the relative similarity in some of the combat doctrines in C-SM and C-CSM, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion might best represent loyalist vs. Horusian elements of the 20th legion.  Several other dichotomy legion splits can be done in much the same way.  I say 'use both', as best as it suits the Hydra.  

 

On one hand, if you want full fledged numerical assault waves of more ravenous and tactically tricky sorts, Chaos lists provide that in abundance with large squads, death to the false Emperor, and a nice selection of 'deity' style strategems which can be activated when need be.  Alpha legion are fortunate in that they can use a bunch of different 'god specific' troops, like Khorne Berserkers (as a dedicated reaver/destoryer force), and plague marines (Breachers), and unmarked tactical units can always do a few fun things too.  It eases one of their principle issues, which the loyalists don't suffer from.  

 

That being, the loyalist elements get all the toys: their veteran units are far more flexible (raptor squads aren't enough to represent jump pack destroyers) and more than that, they have the vase majority of technical treats on their side.  Need jetbikes?  Use Attack bike stats!  Want Landspeeders?  Chaos doesn't get 'em.  etc.  Just be careful of the Relic rule which can be a real killjoy.  Chaos don't suffer from it on a lot of their legion era vehicles.

 

Be a proper Hydra, adapt, evolve, and slay.  Hydra Dominatus!

 

Out of curiosity, what's the type of army you'd typically envision yourself running? 

[Halandaar]

Very much along the lines suggested by Vykes, I'm going to be running my Heresy Alpha Legion as either CSM Alpha Legion or SM Raven Guard, as the mood takes me. Actually, Raptors work too, as Exodus makes a great Lias Issodon.

 

The traits in both Codexes are very similar and there are counts-as opportunities for lots of different units.

[Charlo]

What if your group was open to an 8th ed conversion ruleset? Lots of good work online going into 8th ed Heresy!

 

If not though, I suppose it's as simple as the Marine 'dex being a decent fit for loyalists and the Chaos one for traitors, broadly at least - though they could easily be the other. Loyalists get Cataphractii and Tartaros though!

 

Guiiliman is also a great generic statline for any Primarch count-as with a good weapon and nice aura abilities.

[Harrowmaster]

I've been considering the DW rules for AL to represent the tactical flexibility and special forces feel

[point_Zer0]

I’m sure this has been asked before but...

 

In my local gaming group it’s becoming increasingly difficult to arrange a 30K game after a couple of other 30K stalwarts left the area but I want to make as much use as possible of my Alpha Legion army.

What is the collective’s thought on the best way to represent a Legion in 8th? C-SM or C-CSM?

I know I will need to get the appropriate FW index as well.

 

I was thinking The Space Marine Codex as this would be closer to how they operated during the Heresy before chaos really set in. But then C-CSM allows for Legion sized units of marines.

 

Thoughts guys?

Exactly my problem.

 

I play them as space marines with raven guard trait. Also i often use Lias Issodon from the FW index. He feels super alpha-legionesque)

In order to play csm - you will need to buy daemons, cultists and all that. Also you will not be able to use tartaros and cataphractii armor. And i like loyal vehicles' rules more (I'd prefer my spartan NOT eating units, when they disembark))

[Vykes]

On the one hand I love not having to have the 1:1 30K to 40K vehicle rule that chaos Hellforged ignores over loyalist Relic rules, but the idea of my contemptor dreadnought trying to stuff orks in a non existent mouth and smearing them across their faceplates just gets me to rub my eyes.  "Revered ancient Aurellus... like, seriously, dude, what are you trying to accomplish?"  And apparently yeah, chaos transport vehicles like just occasionally eating legionnaires... I've yet to figure out why.

 

It's hard to stress just how much I miss not being able to use speeders and jetbikes for Chaos.  That sincerely hurts.  But I do like having integrated army support (cultists with autoguns and stubbers)  and some of the really bizzare 'demonforge' business I replace with non-40K mechanicus units like Thallax  Obliterators, Thanatar Defilers, Castellax maulerfiends, Vultarax Blight drones, but I plain out refuse to use demons in a non Word Bearers army.  And oh how 40K Chaos loves their spikey demons demons demons thing.  -sighs- what we go through to serve the Warmaster.

 

...No, not you Abby.  The real one. 

[Gederas]

Exactly my problem.

 

I play them as space marines with raven guard trait. Also i often use Lias Issodon from the FW index. He feels super alpha-legionesque)

In order to play csm - you will need to buy daemons, cultists and all that. Also you will not be able to use tartaros and cataphractii armor. And i like loyal vehicles' rules more (I'd prefer my spartan NOT eating units, when they disembark))

You can't USE Tartaros and Cataphractii Armour's rules, but that doesn't mean you can't HAVE it in the army.

 

I mean, with my Emperor's Children, I'm planning on using Tartaros Armour for the Terminators. Mainly because I like the Aesthetic of Tartaros more for Emperor's Children (or Slaaneshi Marines in general) than Indominus Armour. Cataphractii is quite easy to use as a squad of Lightning Claw Terminators, as it comes with enough Lightning Claws for a whole squad.

[point_Zer0]

 

Exactly my problem.

 

I play them as space marines with raven guard trait. Also i often use Lias Issodon from the FW index. He feels super alpha-legionesque)

In order to play csm - you will need to buy daemons, cultists and all that. Also you will not be able to use tartaros and cataphractii armor. And i like loyal vehicles' rules more (I'd prefer my spartan NOT eating units, when they disembark))

You can't USE Tartaros and Cataphractii Armour's rules, but that doesn't mean you can't HAVE it in the army.

 

Absolutely. But those other suits of armor give you some options gamewise and not just the cool look)

[Vogon]

Right, I’ve read all the comments so far, thanks to all of you for responding, and here are my initial thoughts.

The fact that Contemptor and the various terminator varieties are in the SM book is a big draw and it is not my intention to use the more overtly Chaos units like Daemons or cultists. I’m not 100% on what the relic rule is so I’ll have to check up on that before my final decision but the way things stand I think that C-SM May be the favoured option.

Jet bikes counting as bikes is fine and I guess my Choom will all have to count as Plasma at least for now.

Using the rules for Guilliman to represent Alpharius has a decidedly insidious quality to it so that may just have to be the way forward although it may limit me to using Ultramarine’s traits but as the Ultramarine’s symbol is an Omega upside down that could work too.

Here’s what I’ve got to represent

Cheers

Vogon

[point_Zer0]

Also, as you are alpha legion, you can pick any chapter trait and sm or csm allegience. Very fluffy - all with whom i'd played were happy to play that way)

[Vykes]

That's a nice force there, Vogon mate!   On first inspection I'd say both options work perfectly fine, but Loyalist "Not-Raven Guard" gives you a few better options (but like I said, either work. Mix and match and have fun!).  You actually have a very well rounded 8E army there, and it looks great, so awesome!

 

The relic thing, I hope I don't get much flak for saying at least the limitation, is that you cannot have more 'relic' choices in any given slot than non relics (with the express exception of Lord of War as of the FAQ).  It does more than that but that's the important bit. 

 

Loyalist wise: 

• The Spartan is a Relic but it's the lone Lord of War (so you're fine)
• The Contemptors can be taken from the Index and bypass the FW relic rule while keeping the Kheres and fist combo. (they're not as powerful as the relic versions, but as they're Elite slots, they actually can be used as the relic tax for the elite Sicarans)
• Sicarans, both are good... both are very good, but they have a relic tax which you have more than enough to afford. 
• Your termies are good to go as heavy cataphractii. 
• 3 squads of 10 tacs fill out a battalion formation perfectly. 
• 3 Jetbikes can be 1-3 Attack Bikes for a fast attack slot, (I do it with my blood angels, and they're pretty close in those respects)
• The legion support 'needs' a sergeant (toss a missile launcher in a tac squad and take a tac with maybe a skull helmet 'bit' and there you go) 
• Assault is still assault. 
• Ah the Caliver squad... that's a bit of an issue.  I think you can turn them into 2 5-strong grav-toting company vet squad.  Its that or break them up among the tac squads.
• The Thallax are an issue of sorts. Maybe a unit of Aggressor stand ins? 
• Your HQ are good as is.  
• As a fun point of note, your Imperial Space Marine actually has unique index rules. Or, y'know, maybe that needed dev sergeant with a combi weapon. 

Traitor wise: 

• Spartan is good to go
• HQ is good to go
• Troops are fine (going 2 units of 5, 1 unit of 20 is still a thing that can be done, or mixing and matching of course.)
• Legion heavy support is the same 'issue' as the loyalists, having only 4 heavy weapons plus sergeant. 
• Contemptors can be Hellforged contemptors which is fine.
• Terminators are just standard terminators, chaos get a lot of options but none of them are armour.  
• Sicarans are hellforged, all fine
• Jetbikes have no great analogue I can think of which is the big issue... you could play them as bikes, but... yeah...
• The Choom can be broken up into 2 havoc squads though you'd have to likely count them as plasma or melta (Chaos don't get grav for whatever reason. You can also break them into tac squads at a higher rate than loyalists can as you can have more special weapons.) 
• Thallax Obliterators.  
• Assault legionnaires are Raptors in every way. 
• Vindi is a vindi. 

 

So you're seriously good to go either way. 

[Ryltar Thamior]

something I'd given some idle consideration to once 8th hit, given that all my Marines are truescaled (I haven't been able to look at a regularly-sized out-of-the-box/off-the-sprue Marine seriously for some years now], was running them as Primaris. Apart from the fact they're the right size, various elements of the Primaris rules reminded me of the old "Marines in the Movies" chapter approved from quite some moons ago - in terms of being able to field a force of Marines that somewhat more closely matched their fluff [a core part of the 30k experience, surely]. 

But in light of the specifically Heresy-era nature of the OP question, it is arguable that there is some merit to this approach with particular regard to the Heresy - as the organization and equipment of Primaris units definitely seems to deliberately hearken back to the Heresy-era outfittings in terms of mono-weapontype armed squads and suchlike. it also may make for an easier interaction with the 'contemporary' 40k meta than attempting to run a simulacrum of a Heresy-era Legion list in the contemporary codexes on offer, so to speak. 

There are some areas wherein the parallels might get somewhat strained - running Destroyer squads as Inceptors or whatever they're called, on the basis of jump-mobility and shorter-ranged ballistic argument of the tap-and-gap variety, and hand waiving the improved surviveability off as being the result of void-harndened armour and a gritty, grim determination or somesuch ; or the differences between a 41st millennium Godwyn pattern bolter or common plasmagun and the bolt-rifles or helblasters [i'm not sure what hte name is for those plasma-ish-guns] ruleswise being explained by some superior characteristics [real or imagined] of m30 engineering ("they don't make 'em like they used to") and such , with perhaps self-imposed restrictions in some areas. Redemptor-Contemptor? Gravis-Tartaros? etc. 

[you're also going to run into some issues around transports and such] 

however there are also some potential interesting avenues to be explored that might open up modelling-wise and such if you were to, say, build something to function as a Reiver squad out of 30k-era components - this would be most interesting for Alpha Legion, in particular. 

Now perhaps what I have suggested above is, how shall I say ... "extra-heretical"? And as I noted at the outset, part of my own thoughts in this direction were . underpinned by the fact that my Marines tower over 'regular' plastic or resin Astartes anyway, and are physically as large if not in some cases notably larger than Primaris themselves, so it wouldn't seem quite so egregious to an opponent who insists on playing official-rules-basically-only [hence why you aren't using one of the 30k-into-8th conversion projects out hthere I assume] 

But it's certainly an interesting thought (to me, anyway). Which now has me pondering some 'dual-use' mini-projects of my own with this in mind ... 

[Ahistorian]

I've been considering the DW rules for AL to represent the tactical flexibility and special forces feel

This was actually my plan before 8e dropped

[Vogon]

Vykes, thank you for that summary of your thoughts on what options I could use what models for. Thallax as Obliterators is something I’d never have thought of. Great idea.

 

Thanks also for the summary of the relic rule. I’ll be picking the index book up next time I’m in Nottingham.

 

Ryltar Thamior, that’s an interesting take on the issue but I currently have no Primaris marines at all. Maybe something to think about for the future though.

 

Cheers

 

Vogon

[point_Zer0]

Primaris with Alpha legion heraldry look really cool. Here're mine ancient and notyetready agressor

[Vykes]

Well, I've had a lot of time to think about how I never want to touch a bubblegum 'blit with a ten foot pole :P So you're most welcome, mate.  Don't Fear the Reaper, and don't fear the 8E!  

 

Yeah, a lot of 'Counts as' 8E units are easily possible.  I was talking to Hushong and Pearson 73 about whether Plague Marines might be better used as the stat block for Breachers or for rad missile Destroyers.  Khorne berserker reavers/despoilers, destroyer/breacher rubrics (I snagged a full choom caliver set and plan to make a sub-lieutenant with an alpha legion rod of command blessed by the word bearers for the 'aspiring sorcerer'.), no one is entirely sure about noise marines, seeker/headhunter chosen.  Either way, there is a real joy to working 30K armies into an 8E structure and getting some of that fun new experience through cult units that might often be a little too varied for most people's forces, and thus won't use.  And with the new knights being a thing for 30K as well in the coming months, some cross pollination is fine. 

 

I'm honestly in much the same group: we do have a large 30K group here but it's pretty centered on competitive leagues as a hold over from a large 7E competitive scene, and my personal gaming group is almost exclusively 8E.  So it's adapt and survive!  

 

Superb work, Point_Zer0!  I do love that wisp of smoke in the barrel, ooooh that is so very cool. :)  May have to dispatch some of my seekers to steal that idea :P

[point_Zer0]

 

Superb work, Point_Zer0!  I do love that wisp of smoke in the barrel, ooooh that is so very cool.   May have to dispatch some of my seekers to steal that idea

Thanks, mate.

But you do realise, that those seekers gonna turn out to be Alphariuses in the end?)

[Vykes]

They'll probably steal Horus's prized archeotech comb and get away on a Thunderhawk while I wonder what that was all about :P  Then watch as it becomes knowledge it was one of Vulkan's gifts all along... GAH!

 

-laughs- anyway, minor question as this'll be the right place to stew and mull it over.  Chaos 'Javelins'.  Loyalists get em, they're big, they're tough, they're nasty if you're Raven Guard, but Chaos don't have an option.  Looking at the 'counts as', we seem to have a Greater Blight Drone, the Heldrake, and the Heltalon.  The Talon actually feels decent except it has a minimum distance as a flyer which is... weird.  Any thoughts? Any other not so obvious units we can talk about?