CP-Efficient Knights

[Karhedron]

Whilst the new FAQ has helped considerably, the array of powerful Stratagems in the codex makes Knights a CP-hungry army. Part of the reason is simply that Knight include few buffing units (apart from the yet-to-be-released Preceptor) and a Stratagem granting rerolls will affect a much bigger chunk of the army than a Stratagem affecting a Guard unit will.

 

With this in mind, I have been thinking about how to build Knights that are less CP dependent. This might not matter much in the early turns of a game but when you are down to the final crucial fights, having Knights who do not rely on CPs for their buffs can give you an extra edge.

 

At its simplest, let's look at everyone's favourite stratagem, Rotate Ion Shields. The first thing that leaps out at you is this costs three times more to use on a Dominus class than on a Questoris. This means that if you are worried about the survivability of your Dominus, spending an extra CP on another Warlord Trait and giving it Ion Bulwark is likely to save you CPs pretty quickly.

 

This sort of planning normally works even better at the Lance level since the interaction between House Traits, Warlord Traits and Stratagems is where such synergies are built. Considering a single Knight in isolation misses this subtlety and can lead to more CP-hungry builds.

 

Everyone has been raving about the Gallant and how to quickly get this murder-machine into action. Terryn is an obvious house for a movement boost but if you are not heading for melee, does it help? Building a Lance around the ability to get into CC quickly can actually work pretty well if you consider that Lanstrider is a bubble ability (something of a rarity). Here is a cheap 3CP lance that might be fun.

 

Lance: House Terryn, +3CPs

377 Gallant, Paragon Gauntlet (Heirloom), melta gun, Land Strider

177 Armiger Warglaive with melta gun

177 Armiger Warglaive with melta gun

731 points total

 

That is a fun lance to run right there. Between Traits and Full Tilt, that Gallant has an average charge range of 29.5" meaning you can charge deep into your opponent's deployment zone on Turn 1. The Armigers are faster and even though you can only use Full Tilt once per turn, they still have an average range of charge range of 25" (assuming you charge them first so they will start their charge move in range to benefit from Landstrider) and can fire their melta weapons on the way in.

 

So how about if you want something that balance shooting and melee? House Krast has some interesting potential as the House Trait provides rerolls in melee while the Warlord trait provides rerolls of 1s (including shooting) so benefit a shooty warlord and some fighty friends.

 

Lance: House Krast, +3CPs

592 Castellan 2 x Cannons, 1 x missile, Cawl's Wrath (Heirloom) First Knight

177 Armiger Warglaive with melta gun

177 Armiger Warglaive with melta gun

946 points total

 

Now the Armigers can move up under the cover of massive firepower provided by the Castellan. The Warlord Trait means you can easily overcharge Cawls' Wrath at minimal risk of overheating for 3D per shot. If you want to run this lance cheaper, you can get a similar effect by swapping out the Castellan for a Crusader with Headsman's Mark (+1 per hit damage vs large targets and +2 vs Titanic). If you have more points to spend you can swap out the Armigers for Gallants for a 6CP Lance (if you are happy with a 1 lance army, you could run all 5 at about 1700 points). All the hitty Knights get rerolls to hit in CC while your shooty Warlord provides impressive covering fire.

 

All this is just scratching the surface but I am convinced there are other synergies buried in there that allow Knights to leverage benefits from each other even before you start spending CPs to boost them further.

 

What other gems have people spotted in this area?

[jeffersonian000]

Per FAQ, my 1750 point list starts turn 1 with 1 CP. Post FAQ, it starts with 4 CP. The list is intended to not need CP at all, and only to use a point if needed.

 

House Raven Exalted Court (-6 CP)

 

Gallant w/ Ironspear, Paragon Fist, Knight Seneschel

Warden w/ Ironspear, Fury, Cunning Commander

Perceptor w/ Ironspear, Helm Dominatus, Landstrider

2x Helverins w/ Stubbers

1x Warglaive w/ Stubber

 

If I want more CP, I can drop the Warglaive and an Ironspear for a 180 point Guard Battery.

 

SJ

[PiñaColada]

Oh man, knights have so many fun builds that became a lot more viable with the CP change. Maybe I'm too optimistic but most of the lists I see online I feel like they could really be an interesting threat. I've been toying with 2 Raven SHD at 1750. One with a Castellan and 2x1 warglaives. The other with a Preceptor w/Ironstorm and 2x1 Helverin. Have to wait for that darned preceptor to release though :P

 

Just an FYI: A Castellan with 2x siegebreakers and 1x shieldbreaker is 604 points. The missiles are taken in pairs and are 12 points each. Plenty of people seem to make that mistake though, but in the point list they are listed as singular whereas in the datasheet they're plural. Also, even if that wasn't the case they'd obviously would be priced wrong at 6 points each. That'd be the same as hunter-killers when they have 2 more Strength, 2 more AP and ignore invulns.

[hermanista]

I went big on the cp, and at the cost of a Helverin am happy with the exchange

 

1750 - 19 starting CP

 

House Raven

Valiant, Ion Bulwark, Sainted Ion armour, 2x cannon 1x missile

Gallant, Land Strider

Warden, Endless Fury, Thunderstrike

 

 

Guard battalion

Commander, Brilliant strategist

Commander, Kurovs Aquila

3x10 guard

 

Guard battallion

Commander

Primaris Pskyer, Gaze, Maelstrom

3x 10 guard

 

 

 

19 starting CP means I can blow 6 on heirlooms/Warlord traits before the battle and still have 13 on the table to start.

 

And then the CP regen starts as normal, meaning a rotate on the Dominus isn't so bad, plus I can full tilt/death grip each turn as needed.

 

I can even throw 2cp on the missile strat and not feel too bad about it.

[Clingy]

I’m currently trying to come up with an ideal Taranis build. I’m guessing a styrix would probably be a good knight to include

[Stray]

I’m currently trying to come up with an ideal Taranis build. I’m guessing a styrix would probably be a good knight to include

 

I'm not so sure these days. Pre-codex, the Styrix was pretty good, mostly due to it having a lot of staying power over the other Knights generally.

 

Now though, the other Knights can do very similar things with Relics, and you are invariably not paying 500 points for them. They likely  have better firepower too. 

 

It's not a terrible Knight, but I think it's become expensive for what it does now, sadly.

[PiñaColada]

So, quick question, and I know this is the wrong thread for it really but I don't really want to start an entire thread for something this simple.. I do apologise for this quick derail.

When you guys are magnetising your Castellan/Valiants are you also magnetising the pieces going into the main weapons themselves? (The part numbers of A10 & A11) Since those pieces are on the "A" spures and not the "C" sprue any new weapons we would possibly get would not include extras of those parts, correct?

[jeffersonian000]

So, quick question, and I know this is the wrong thread for it really but I don't really want to start an entire thread for something this simple.. I do apologise for this quick derail.

 

When you guys are magnetising your Castellan/Valiants are you also magnetising the pieces going into the main weapons themselves? (The part numbers of A10 & A11) Since those pieces are on the "A" spures and not the "C" sprue any new weapons we would possibly get would not include extras of those parts, correct?

I’d recommend magnetizing at the swivel for each arm and each Carapace slot. I’d also recommend magnetizing the Melta barrels, because I’m pretty sure we will be see upgrade options for those too.

 

SJ

[Aothaine]

Look... I know this is not a Loyalist list. But I kind of think it belongs. For those can can't handle the freedom of Chaos don't look at the spoiler.

 

 

 

Total Points: 1743

Total Command Points: 10(1)

 

Supreme Command Detachment - 681

Command Points: 1

 

[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)

- Malefic Talons, Hellforged Sword, Wings, Mark of Khorne

- Warlord Trait: Immense Power

- Relic: A'rgath, The King of Blades

 

[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)

- Malefic Talons, Daemonic Axe, Wings, Mark of Khorne

- Relic: Skullreaver

 

[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)

- Malefic Talons x2, Wings, Mark of Khorne

- Relic: The Crimson Crown

 

[E] Bloodcrushers (3-man) - 141 (PL 8)

- Hellblade x3

 

Super Heavy Detachment - 1062

Command Points: 6

 

[LoW] Renegade Knight (Character) - 354 (PL 25)

- Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber

 

[LoW] Renegade Knight - 354 (PL 25)

- Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber

 

[LoW] Renegade Knight - 354 (PL 25)

- Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber

 

 

My loyalist list is still up in the air. I like Hawkshroud but I also like some of the mechanicus houses and the mechanicus strat that lets your knight get back up and then the other one that lets it fight at it's highest profile. So I'm still trying to figure out where to go with my loyalist knights.

 

Edit: Having a list that focuses almost entirely on melee might be a good way to save some CPs for late game as well. Something to think about at least.

[Stray]

 

Look... I know this is not a Loyalist list. But I kind of think it belongs. For those can can't handle the freedom of Chaos don't look at the spoiler.

 

 

 

Total Points: 1743

Total Command Points: 10(1)

 

Supreme Command Detachment - 681

Command Points: 1

 

[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)

- Malefic Talons, Hellforged Sword, Wings, Mark of Khorne

- Warlord Trait: Immense Power

- Relic: A'rgath, The King of Blades

 

[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)

- Malefic Talons, Daemonic Axe, Wings, Mark of Khorne

- Relic: Skullreaver

 

[HQ] Daemon Prince - 180 (PL 9)

- Malefic Talons x2, Wings, Mark of Khorne

- Relic: The Crimson Crown

 

[E] Bloodcrushers (3-man) - 141 (PL 8)

- Hellblade x3

 

Super Heavy Detachment - 1062

Command Points: 6

 

[LoW] Renegade Knight (Character) - 354 (PL 25)

- Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber

 

[LoW] Renegade Knight - 354 (PL 25)

- Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber

 

[LoW] Renegade Knight - 354 (PL 25)

- Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber

 

 

My loyalist list is still up in the air. I like Hawkshroud but I also like some of the mechanicus houses and the mechanicus strat that lets your knight get back up and then the other one that lets it fight at it's highest profile. So I'm still trying to figure out where to go with my loyalist knights.

 

Edit: Having a list that focuses almost entirely on melee might be a good way to save some CPs for late game as well. Something to think about at least.

 

 

Ye gods! That's evil...

 

...I approve completely! (Do you have any cat in you at all?)

 

Low model count, but nothing in that list can be ignored, and it's all going to hurt so very much once it's in your face O.o

[Aothaine]

 

 

 

Ye gods! That's evil...

 

...I approve completely! (Do you have any cat in you at all?)

 

Low model count, but nothing in that list can be ignored, and it's all going to hurt so very much once it's in your face O.o

 

 

It isn't a list I would ever take to a friendly game for sure. It is one of a few lists I'm debating on getting ready for LVO 2019. I still have 2-4 months to finally decide. 

 

But I thought I'd share it because I think it is a good example of how you can build a list (with the exception of Daemons with Imperium) that prevents the knights from needing a lot of command point. The focus on everything just bum rushing your opponent and not worrying about that one-shot D10 weapon hitting at all. Melee knights are scary and I think people are going to realize this very soon. The Dakka knights are getting a big show right now but they really don't pack all that much firepower when you look at the points. Someone earlier in this thread compared them to one of the IG tanks and it was almost laughable. 

 

The more and more I look into knights the more I'm convincing myself just how strong they are going to be in assault based armies. The three melee knights in that list only take up 1060 points. They can target hordes/MCs/Vehicles with no issues and give you an additional 900 points to fill out with allies. Maybe two Blood Angel Slamguiniuses and Mephiston? Or Shield Captains on the hover bikes? 

 

All knight armies are going to be gatekeepers imho. They are going to be fun to play because you'll kill a bunch of stuff and not lose a lot yourself. But they are going to fall apart to combined arms lists and soups which are already dominating the meta. It will change lists up a bit though because now lists need some serious anti-tank and anti-horde. 

 

So, making a list designed to reduce command point usage by the knights themselves shouldn't be too difficult. Especially with the new rules regarding the Super Heavy Detachment.

 

If you're going all IKs and you build a melee list as well you're going to terrify people.  I think people are getting used to knights getting into mid range and shooting. In most of the batreps I've seen so far I think I've seen one maybe two knights kitted for assault. This codex... I need to buy it next payday to work on crafting up some lists but I'm almost positive that the lists you want to be afraid of are going to be the very rare assault based IK list.

 

Edit: Sorry for the word salad.. was typing as I thought.

[Vel'Cona]

That list is disgusting.  I hope DPs get some attention in CA 2018 . . .

[Dracos]

These heavy swings back and forth with GW actually paying attention (looking at you Nids) reinforces my opinion, that if you’re in it for the long haul, stick with the basics. Unless you have tons of money to have toys collect dust after CA gets hold of you.

 

Competitively I’m less concerned with Chaos than I would be against Guard. Knights are going to push Guard Commanders into building list around the “must have” Shadowsword.