Question on Sternguard Use

[Syward]

Greeting brothers! I’ve got a question regarding Sternguard and their available weapons. The Combi weapons says: “When attacking with this weapon, choose one or both of the profiles. If you choose both, subtract 1 from all hit rolls for this weapon.” I interpret this to mean that if equipped, I can fire the weapon as either a boltgun or as a plasma gun or both. But if I fire both bolt & plasma, I take 1 off my hit. (I’m not asking a rules question, but if I’ve got this wrong, please let me know!)

 

So my question is, since I can equip every member of a Sternguard Squad w/a Combi-Plasma, but I can alternatively choose to take a Plasma Cannon or a normal Plasma gun but would be limited to just 2 members of the squad with either of these weapons, and would sacrifice their boltgun.

 

So unless I’m missing something, wouldn’t you always want to use combi weapons in favor of the heavy/special weapon options for your Sternguard? It seems to me like a large increase in firepower & flexibility with the only drawback is the penalty to hit, which is easily overcome by keeping your Captain close. Or is there some advantage/reason I’m overlooking on why you wouldn’t want to take combi-weapons? (I know in previous editions, you could only fire the special weapon once, but unless I’m overlooking that, that restriction is gone for 8th)

 

Thanks.

[UnkyHamHam]

Not necessarily. First off points. Combi weapons are usually two points more expensive for the added bolter component over the special weapon. Second, a few bolter shots are really not that great in the grand scheme and the army has no shortage of them usually. Thirdly the bolter part of a combi weapon is not a special issue bolt gun, nor does it work with the Masterful Marksman Strategem. If it did, it would be worth it.

 

But lastly and most importantly, even if you do have both parts of the combi weapon, its most of the time better to just shoot the special weapon alone and not suck up the neg one to hit. Imagine if you wanted to overcharge your combi plasma AND tap the bolter. That's - 2 to hit and marine dying on a 1 or 2. Emperor save you if you are playing in a competitive environment against eldar or raven guard. Those negative modifiers stack up quick, and a Captain really doesn't band-aid the issue.

 

Only time I think it's acceptable to double tap both parts of a combi weapon is when shot quantity is key and and you are receiving no other negative hit modifiers. Combi flamers are good for this too as the flamer component auto hits. But in general flamers are overpriced and random so I'm not a fan.

[Syward]

Not necessarily. First off points. Combi weapons are usually two points more expensive for the added bolter component over the special weapon. Second, a few bolter shots are really not that great in the grand scheme and the army has no shortage of them usually. Thirdly the bolter part of a combi weapon is not a special issue bolt gun, nor does it work with the Masterful Marksman Strategem. If it did, it would be worth it.

 

But lastly and most importantly, even if you do have both parts of the combi weapon, its most of the time better to just shoot the special weapon alone and not suck up the neg one to hit. Imagine if you wanted to overcharge your combi plasma AND tap the bolter. That's - 2 to hit and marine dying on a 1 or 2. Emperor save you if you are playing in a competitive environment against eldar or raven guard. Those negative modifiers stack up quick, and a Captain really doesn't band-aid the issue.

 

Only time I think it's acceptable to double tap both parts of a combi weapon is when shot quantity is key and and you are receiving no other negative hit modifiers. Combi flamers are good for this too as the flamer component auto hits. But in general flamers are overpriced and random so I'm not a fan.

 

Ok, that makes sense - so points aside, if I equip the while squad w/combi-plasma, and choose to only fire the plasma, then I'm essentially running a 5man plasma gun squad, at the loss of my Special Issue Bolter, but the plasma would be a better shot than what I would get with the special issue bolter right? So as long as I don't get silly & try to fire both profiles, I'm using a lot more firepower with an all combi-plasma squad and can "safely" overcharge as long as I've got a capt. in range and I'm not trying to shoot a unit/army that has any modifiers like the RG. 

 

And the plasma strength, AP & damage done is still better than the special issue boltgun, so I wouldn't need the use Masterful Marksman, (would still likely wound on a 3+ against more targets)​ the only real draw back is the added points cost. (Although it's only 28 (41 if you wouldn't normally equip the Sgt) points more to give the whole unit a combi-plasma over the Sgt. w/a Combi-Plasma + 2x Plasma Guns)

 

​I think I'm going to make a bits order for some combi-plasma for my Sternguard squads.

[UnkyHamHam]

Yes you are correct in assumptions.

 

But why not just take Company Vets with plasma guns for cheaper? Especially if you are only planning on going a 5 man squad. You can equip them with a chainsword as well for a free extra attack. They will out perform Sternguard with combis in almost every way unless you're going for a larger squad.

 

Even better, if you are going to walk or deploy without transport, Hellblasters are really what you want.

 

Rule of cool aside, Sternguard are sitting in a weird spot. Special issue bolters and and Heavy flamers are really the only things they do that can't be done elsewhere cheaper or more efficiently.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Given Special Issue Bolters and Masterful Marksmanship, I feel that taking any kind of weapon other than the SIB is a waste on Sternguard. Other units can do special weapon spam more efficiently, and while it's possible to generate more shots with storm bolters than SIBs, you lose out on the AP and stratagem support that define the unit.

[Syward]

Yes you are correct in assumptions.

 

But why not just take Company Vets with plasma guns for cheaper? Especially if you are only planning on going a 5 man squad. You can equip them with a chainsword as well for a free extra attack. They will out perform Sternguard with combis in almost every way unless you're going for a larger squad.

 

Even better, if you are going to walk or deploy without transport, Hellblasters are really what you want.

 

Rule of cool aside, Sternguard are sitting in a weird spot. Special issue bolters and and Heavy flamers are really the only things they do that can't be done elsewhere cheaper or more efficiently.

Oh man, thanks for pointing out the Company Veterans. I completely overlooked them. I was going to run 2x 5man Sternguard w/Kantor so the Company Veterans make even more sense to use along w/Kantor's aura. 4x Veterans w/Plasma Gun + Chainsword & Vet Sgt. w/Combi-Plasma & Chainsword works out as a much better pairing and as you pointed out, it's cheaper than equipping the Sternguards. Can't wait to model these, they're going to look so bad ass.

 

 

Given Special Issue Bolters and Masterful Marksmanship, I feel that taking any kind of weapon other than the SIB is a waste on Sternguard. Other units can do special weapon spam more efficiently, and while it's possible to generate more shots with storm bolters than SIBs, you lose out on the AP and stratagem support that define the unit.

Fair point, and for what I'm going to use them for, the Company Veterans are going to fit the role 100% better.

 

Thank you both for the input, it was a huge help.  

[Kallas]

About firing both parts: statistically, firing both parts (assuming not Overcharging the Plasma) is better against pretty much all infantry targets.

 

(Per 1 weapon; assuming 1 shot)

Bolter alone: (1 * 0.66* [0.66/0.5/0.5] * [0.66/0.33/0.166] )

GEQs: 0.288fs (failed saves)

MEQs: 0.11fs

TEQs: 0.06fs

 

Plasma alone: (1 * 0.66 * [0.833/0.66/0.66] * [x/0.833/0.66] )

GEQs: 0.55fs

MEQs: 0.36fs

TEQs: 0.29fs

 

Both: (1 * 0.5 * [as above] )

GEQs: Bolter, 0.22fs; Plasma, 0.42fs = 0.64fs (better than either individually) 

MEQs: Bolter, 0.08fs; Plasma, 0.28fs = 0.36fs (equal to Plasma alone; higher potential)

TEQs: Bolter, 0.04fs; Plasma, 0.22fs = 0.26fs (worse than Plasma alone; higher potential)

 

TEQs, you're better off with Overcharged for the 2D, of course, but against 1W infantry, firing both parts of a Combi-Plasma will probably net you more overall. In some cases it's a minimal improvement (vs MEQs, for example), and in other cases it might be a situation where a particular unit is targeted for another purpose (ie, objectives) so firing the most powerful part (ie, the Plasma) is more reliable in general

[chapter master 454]

You take sternguard for their SIBs. Those are workhorses if you use the stratagem and add in storm of fire. If you want to get extra cheese, get yourself a rhino primaris and give the sternguard +1 to hit and have them use imperial fist for bolter drill. Now on 5+ you get an extra shot, on a 5+ you have Ap3 (ap2 otherwise) and can drop a lot of targets fairly fast just due to weight of fire.

 

Personally I find that to be one of the biggest strengths of sternguard, otherwise as other have said just don't bother with sternguard and use company veterans. While the combi as shown can add more damage, it really isn't worth the 10-20 point tax you are paying for them all. Back when it was Special Issue Ammo, yea you took combi melta on all sternguard, drop podded them and just told your opponent to remove any non-titanic unit on the spot! Now however, company veterans would be the way to go to save points.