open letter to GamesWorkshop

[Medjugorje]

Hi brothers,

 

 

as in the "BT goes SW"Thread  we want to start a "copy paste"-letter to gw. That letter should be a Cover letter plus some ideas how the BT-community see their fraction.

 

At first we need somebody to write the cover letter ( english is not my mother language) so if anybody could do that, i would very pleased. And then we have to discuss 4 points:

 

1. rules for special units (crusader squads)

2. rules for marine units (assault squad, terminator squads

3. stratagems

4. chapter tactics

 

 

placeholder (for result)

[redmapa]

The crux of our problem has been that in one way or another there is no support for the play style that GW wants the army to be and thats been the case since we got rolled into the Space Marine codex, GW seems afraid of giving the army more support in case we somehow end up with a strong assault focus AND a strong shooting focus that IS supported by the codex. I still think our current situation is not as bad as it used to be and is much more easily fixed, the FAQ really did a work on us but not only that it exacerbated the flaws of our codex in the sense that it removed options to be aggressive and pulled everyone back to building a gun line.

 

How would I fix Black Templars? Easy, give their chapter tactic a bonus to their attacks. That can either be a flat +1A when charging as an addition to the chapter tactic or you could even add some of that power to Chaplains, it would be fluffy and taxing so as to not pile on buffs for free. As it stands with the FAQ its not worth gambling too much on assault when you are not sure if you are even going to kill something and that weakness that we have had this edition is exaggerated because the FAQ has us no longer being able to swarm the enemy in multiple expendable units to minimize their counter attack (And a tactic which our CT seemed to  be made for).

 

Regarding to the letter itself I think it should not be a list of demands but rather a list of questions that they should answer, what is their current idea of the Black Templars? To me its quite schizophrenic and has always seemd like they push this army towards assault but dont support it so you end up with weak assault and weak shooting, so how are they supposed to play when nothing is rewarding? Why does adding power weapons to models that have one attack seem so counter-intuitive in this edition? Should stratagems be taken as a basis in army building or are they a bonus to your personal army? Codex Space Marines raises a lot of questions for me, specially as newer books come out, that I think THEY need to answer.

 

More importantly, and while I do appreciate this effort, is to have in mind that the big FAQ is in September and if youre going to send a letter then outline how the FAQ has affected us so that THEY have it in their mind that it needs changing in some way or certain armies need something.

[Medjugorje]

ok so then:

 

Chapter Tactic:

 

reroll failed charges and +1 to hit in the first fight phase the unit has charged, was charged made a heroic intervention... ( i think one attack is too strong - what do you think)

 

Is there anybody who can write that in correct and perfect english? THX

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Re-rolls charges sucks. It doesn't work anywhere near as well as other alternatives.

[Medjugorje]

i think its very good. But not enough.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

ok so then:

 

Chapter Tactic:

 

reroll failed charges and +1 to hit in the first fight phase the unit has charged, was charged made a heroic intervention... ( i think one attack is too strong - what do you think)

 

Is there anybody who can write that in correct and perfect english? THX

 

It's not too strong when every assault army out there and their mother can do it or have something similar...

 

World Eaters has the +1 A on the charge rule

Blood Angels have the +1 on wounding dice results rule

and Tyranids have all the rules as Hive Fleet Traits for melee, including our reroll charge distance, run and assault and reroll misses if outnumbering the enemy...

 

having +1 to Hit would be a waste as almost all Space Marine units already hit on a 3+ which is already on the better end of the spectrum and majority ofHQs normally would need 1's to miss...

We need the oomph... C:SM as they are lack the power to hit hard in melee... they also lack the delivery to get into melee to begin with... but that's for a different day... C:SM has a few melee contenders against other armies' melee monsters, but they severely lack in the hitting hard department that they get taken out almost immediately by Chaos Space Marines or even Grey Hunters... units that they should be on par or be even better suited to fight against to begin with...

[BloodWolves]

Well i was thinking if somehow we could get something like how Guardsmen have "Orders" Black Templars should have "Vows" or "Oaths" this would stand in place of the Black Templars not having any Librarians to cast spells. Also i stand by the idea that Chaplains should have always had Deny the Witch maybe not as potent as a librarian but still something to deny a cast.

 

*Again Bias because Chaplains are my most favorite characters*

[BloodWolves]

Emperors Champion:

 

- "No Clean Swords" - Units within 3" of Emperors Champion reroll wounds of 1 within the fight phase"

 

(Inspired by The Hound from Game of Thrones "If any man dies with a clean sword.......")

 

Marshall:

Same stats and rules as Captain

 

- "Blade Masters": Friendly Black Templar Crusader Squads within 6" of a Marshall can always fight first in the fight phase, even if they didn't charge... (Copied Captain Sicarus "Battle Forged Heroes rule)

 

Chaplain:

Same stats as Chaplains

 

"Retribution Against the Unholy" - Chaplains may attempt a single Deny the Witch as long as they are within 3" of the unit being affected and not engaged with an enemy in the fight phase.

 

Company Champion:

Company Executioner - Model may swap out Master Crafted Power Sword for Master Crafted Power Axe.

 

Im working on additional chapter tactics called Oaths or Vows? Which sounds better??

[Schlitzaf]

Can we not do bonus on first round of combat that is the opposite of templarly and like I said in Space Wolf said; Templars are not an alpha strike force. If you play that as an Alpha Strike go play Blood Angels. We don’t deathstar very well. Even our classic claw + accept weren’t deathstars they were hammer units (units meant to dislodge enemy positions). In contrast to other armies our focused has been on our regular boys in black. Which is something our chapter should highlight.

 

http://imgur.com/a/k2DAuWn

 

These are the rules I wrote for our boys

The Durandal/Avalon are based on being our dreads. Conquistadors are actually represent how Conquistadors were scouts replace our Assault Marine Squads. With the following addendums

-any model may take combat shield

-up to 2 Intaites may take a PlasmPistol, Flamer or (PowWeapon)

-up to 2 Initaites may Evis or (PowWeapon)

And if not equipped with Jump Packs the Squad may take 0-10 Neophytes. A Conquistador Squad with Neophytes may deploy at end of any movement phase 6” from table edge 9” from enemy

 

Cavalier Squad are just Space Marine Biker which can take 0-8 Neophyte Bikers (Scout Bikers no Shotgun).

Also up to three initiates mah take up to 3 Special Weapons or (PowWeapon).

 

Neophyte Ancient is Company Ancient 20 points less, one less wound, attack, and Sv. Can only take Chainsword. These are a lot of changes, but together these changes would bring back a lot of our old flavor and revive it. Also giving us a lot of new toys and units to play with.

[Medjugorje]

The thing about +1 attack is to getting this bonus over strike out of a land raider crusader and Crusader squads can disembark after a land raider crusader already moved up to 6 "... and in addition all units get a extra attack if there are at least 10 models ore more in the squad.

 

but if the majority thinks that +1 attack should be the main chapter tactic - its okay. Then a land raider crusader gets a 6" bubble for +1 to hit and crusader squads can disembark from a LRC after a maximum movement 6"

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think we are better placed accepting the simple fact we are not getting our own codex any time soon by fan pressure alone and backing The ideas on the codex space marines amendments thread. They are great and while not entirely black Templar specific, what benefits all codex space marines armies, benefits us. The changes to terminators proposed there would make them truly viable hammer choices, as would many of the strategems aimed at helping troops. Let's focus our efforts rather than split them.

[Medjugorje]

I think we have much more benefit if we write that to GW.  Every small thing is a win for us.

 

"A penny saved is a penny got [earned]."

 

and however

 

As you make your bed, so you must lie.

 

I will never rest.

[Tokugawa]

 

I think we have much more benefit if we write that to GW.  Every small thing is a win for us.

 

"A penny saved is a penny got [earned]."

 

and however

 

As you make your bed, so you must lie.

 

I will never rest.

 

GW receive letters from player bothering how weak(no matter whether that army is really weak) their army is, everyday. I think GW is accustomed to that for years.

 

If your army is overpowered(e.g. 8 tyrants), similar armies could get good result in events, GW would notice that, any may fix that in months.

If your army is underpowered, similar armies get beaten and beaten in events, would GW notice that? I doubt...

[Sete]

CT- add 2 to charge range, re roll charges.

+ 1 to wound vs Psykers

Deny the witch 6+.

 

Chars already buff the melee of our  crusader squads.

Add a proper sword bro unit as elites, like HH Templars.

???

Profit.

 

Im sending weekly emails to the FAQ team.

If the community here just wants  roll over and die, so be it, ill do it alone.

I will never be satisfied with mediocrity.

[Medjugorje]

 

I think we have much more benefit if we write that to GW.  Every small thing is a win for us.

 

"A penny saved is a penny got [earned]."

 

and however

 

As you make your bed, so you must lie.

 

I will never rest.

 

GW receive letters from player bothering how weak(no matter whether that army is really weak) their army is, everyday. I think GW is accustomed to that for years.

 

If your army is overpowered(e.g. 8 tyrants), similar armies could get good result in events, GW would notice that, any may fix that in months.

If your army is underpowered, similar armies get beaten and beaten in events, would GW notice that? I doubt...

 

then we have to write how should they be... playstyle. They should know that we know how to shoot but still want a melee oriented army.

 

@Sete... nice to have a brother in mind.

[BloodWolves]

@Sete Spoken like a true Templar

[BaronTuman]

I hate to be so negative, but I've been seeing a trend and I feel even if every BT player in the world sent GW the best letter possible we would still not get support for BT as a viable army, and here's why:

 

BT have too "mundane" iconography.  We use a Maltese cross which is taken from actual history, and was even used by the Knights Templar.  This means that the intellectual property surrounding our chapter is weak and hard to defect.  Sadly, the same thing happened to Tomb Kings in Fantasy/AoS.  Quite simply, GW doesn't WANT us to play Black Templars.

 

Furthermore, look at the models that they want to sell.  Their profits are much higher on large models like Imperial Knights.  Selling one box of plastic marines for 50$ is not as profitable as selling a box with an Imperial Knight for $150.  Shelf space is at a premium for GW and it's all about selling the fewest number of boxes for the highest cost possible. Not only that, but they've saturated the market with basic marine models, thus the new Primaris Marines.

 

So, the very things that we love about the BT are the things that GW abhors.  How we get out of that situation, I don't know.  Arguing "my toys aren't as fun to play with as everybody else's"  won't move the needle in this case.  Unless we get a games designer who loves our army (looking at you Eldar) we'll continue to be overlooked and ignored, despite our zealotry.

[Schlitzaf]

Anyone have thoughts on what I posted so far? For my Templar ‘rules’?

[Medjugorje]

I hate to be so negative, but I've been seeing a trend and I feel even if every BT player in the world sent GW the best letter possible we would still not get support for BT as a viable army, and here's why:

 

BT have too "mundane" iconography.  We use a Maltese cross which is taken from actual history, and was even used by the Knights Templar.  This means that the intellectual property surrounding our chapter is weak and hard to defect.  Sadly, the same thing happened to Tomb Kings in Fantasy/AoS.  Quite simply, GW doesn't WANT us to play Black Templars.

 

Furthermore, look at the models that they want to sell.  Their profits are much higher on large models like Imperial Knights.  Selling one box of plastic marines for 50$ is not as profitable as selling a box with an Imperial Knight for $150.  Shelf space is at a premium for GW and it's all about selling the fewest number of boxes for the highest cost possible. Not only that, but they've saturated the market with basic marine models, thus the new Primaris Marines.

 

So, the very things that we love about the BT are the things that GW abhors.  How we get out of that situation, I don't know.  Arguing "my toys aren't as fun to play with as everybody else's"  won't move the needle in this case.  Unless we get a games designer who loves our army (looking at you Eldar) we'll continue to be overlooked and ignored, despite our zealotry.

how you declare a codex Deathwatch, a codex Harlequin, a codex Dark Angels, Codex Blood Angels....

 

They dont have to design new models, just the rules. Its just a book and most of its rules are already in the current Codex Astartes.

And "mundane" is a word that you could use for every chapter and still any fraction (space orks, space elves,...)

[Medjugorje]

Anyone have thoughts on what I posted so far? For my Templar ‘rules’?

I think its too much change. They want to sell more boxes and I think new units arent that bad. For the whole - its more like a own codex and my ideas just go up to point 1. to 4. (and this is hard enough).

 

But i have a good idea:

Write it down here, so we could just copy & paste it and we all can send it to gw as one of much ideas.

[BaronTuman]

 

snip

how you declare a codex Deathwatch, a codex Harlequin, a codex Dark Angels, Codex Blood Angels....

 

They dont have to design new models, just the rules. Its just a book and most of its rules are already in the current Codex Astartes.

And "mundane" is a word that you could use for every chapter and still any fraction (space orks, space elves,...)

 

I don't think that we are understanding each other here.

 

By "mundane" I mean "in the real world".  There are no real world equivalents to the imagery for Blood Angels, Dark Angels, or Orks.  If you were to put a Blood Angel logo on your website, GW could force you to take it down for copyright infringement.  But put a Matese cross on your website and taunt GW all you want, because they do not own that intellectual property.  There is literally nothing in the BT chapter that entices GW to spend money for us.

[Medjugorje]

but Dark Angels are the same... and a lot of other fractions...  I dont think thats the point.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I think that instead of boosting our capabilities, there should also be a follow-up campaign to weaken other more stronger factions, such as Eldar, Tau and certain aspects of the Guard... if the issue is that GW won't hear us because our army is too weak, then complain about how strong other armies are and take them down to our level... seems fair to ask instead of asking for power creep....

[templargdt]

We need more than reroll charges, something to increase damage in CC.  Reroll 1's to wound you already get from a lieutenant.  -1 to enemy saves on the charge?

[arigatous]

Black Templar armed with power weapons get +1A.

 

A pretty small tweak which will in my opinion will immediately make BT great again. Nothing else needed honestly.