Q-Knights: Best primary gun?

[Magos_Adephus]

I find the RFBC is the best candidate for the Forgeshrine. As the rule states, it’s “next time the weapon is fired”. Put the Forgeshrine just outside of enemy Los, deploy a Crusader next to it, skip first turn shooting for it, then come out of the gates turn two with 12 AGC shots and 12 RFBC shots to mulch the advancing enemy.

 

On a paladin you could do something similar, skip turn 1 shooting, then move forward turn two while laying down 12 RFBC shots. Turn three you’ll prolly be charging into melee, and whatever you charge should already be pulverized by your owning volley

[Heliomanes]

Why would you pay extra points to skip a turn of shooting, though? The only difference would be that you give the enemy the chance to get more shots off before you put his guns to rest, and that you paid points for the chance to do so.

The forgeshrine needs a significant buff or rework to be a worthwhile addition to any force, I'm afraid.

[Stray]

I have to agree I fear. If we're bringing the Forgeshrine into a discussion about how effective a weapon is, we're in serious trouble! :P

[Tiger9gamer]

Honestly, not even looking at math because it's early, I think the thermal cannon is one of the best weapons we have. Only a d6, sure, but every shot you take will hit hard enough to leave you satisfied, and if the dice swings in your favor then it can massively overkill a model or just plink a wound off, but either way it will get through the opponent's armor on those tanks or infantry. It's more of a dedicated armor killer sure, but it has enough reach and can be combined with a storm spear to rock a tank no problem.

 

Plus, if you wanna fight infantry you can always charge in and stomp on them, then retreat and shoot another tank, this is coming from a guy who runs 3 neutron lasers in a list too, and I somehow always find a target for the thermal cannon's overkill.

[Stray]

Honestly, not even looking at math because it's early, I think the thermal cannon is one of the best weapons we have. Only a d6, sure, but every shot you take will hit hard enough to leave you satisfied, and if the dice swings in your favor then it can massively overkill a model or just plink a wound off, but either way it will get through the opponent's armor on those tanks or infantry. It's more of a dedicated armor killer sure, but it has enough reach and can be combined with a storm spear to rock a tank no problem.

 

Plus, if you wanna fight infantry you can always charge in and stomp on them, then retreat and shoot another tank, this is coming from a guy who runs 3 neutron lasers in a list too, and I somehow always find a target for the thermal cannon's overkill.

 

It's not terrible - especially given it's cost - but I don't think it's as good as some people believe.

 

The Thermal Cannon (in a vacuum obviously), will do 7 wounds average on a Rhino. 

This means that it is actually outperformed by every close combat weapon we have vs that same target - including feet. It gets better results than River dancing on other armored targets, but any other combination of assault weapon - even if not on a Gallant - eclipses it entirely against any form of armour.

 

It's sobering to think about for me.

 

Unless you have a real need to be at range constantly (and as has been stated - if you miss assault, you miss up to half, or more, of your damage potential), you should have taken a Warden.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I find the RFBC is the best candidate for the Forgeshrine. As the rule states, it’s “next time the weapon is fired”. Put the Forgeshrine just outside of enemy Los, deploy a Crusader next to it, skip first turn shooting for it, then come out of the gates turn two with 12 AGC shots and 12 RFBC shots to mulch the advancing enemy.

 

On a paladin you could do something similar, skip turn 1 shooting, then move forward turn two while laying down 12 RFBC shots. Turn three you’ll prolly be charging into melee, and whatever you charge should already be pulverized by your owning volley

 

Adding to the hate to the brief mention of the forgeshrine (because its utterly trash and it MUST be pointed out just how trash it is at every given opportunity), there's just no justification ever to forgo the shooting of ALL your weapons one turn to maximize the number of hits of ONE weapon next turn. Even if it boosted the number of hits of ALL weapons, it was still a pretty awful deal because shooting twice will on average give you more.

 

That said lets address your argument a little more fully. I would posit the scenario you had, having your crusader or paladin hang back out of LoS is a too detrimental way of playing these very expensive weapon platforms. If your crusader cannot fire anything first turn anyway, then maybe its cause to rethink his positioning. You want to fire everything as much as possible while simultaneous moving him forward to try and kick something to death as well. Those 12 titanic feet attacks are no joke to most things.

 

And even if in your scenario, the only weapon that could've been fired turn 1 was the RFBC on the crusader, it would still be more beneficial to do so rather than use the ability. You're trading your on average 14 hits for 12 hits, while also not having moved your knight up to charge something in the coming turns

[Tiger9gamer]

 

Honestly, not even looking at math because it's early, I think the thermal cannon is one of the best weapons we have. Only a d6, sure, but every shot you take will hit hard enough to leave you satisfied, and if the dice swings in your favor then it can massively overkill a model or just plink a wound off, but either way it will get through the opponent's armor on those tanks or infantry. It's more of a dedicated armor killer sure, but it has enough reach and can be combined with a storm spear to rock a tank no problem.

 

Plus, if you wanna fight infantry you can always charge in and stomp on them, then retreat and shoot another tank, this is coming from a guy who runs 3 neutron lasers in a list too, and I somehow always find a target for the thermal cannon's overkill.

 

It's not terrible - especially given it's cost - but I don't think it's as good as some people believe.

 

The Thermal Cannon (in a vacuum obviously), will do 7 wounds average on a Rhino. 

This means that it is actually outperformed by every close combat weapon we have vs that same target - including feet. It gets better results than River dancing on other armored targets, but any other combination of assault weapon - even if not on a Gallant - eclipses it entirely against any form of armour.

 

It's sobering to think about for me.

 

Unless you have a real need to be at range constantly (and as has been stated - if you miss assault, you miss up to half, or more, of your damage potential), you should have taken a Warden.

 

hey, I said  it was too early for math earlier! but you are right, averages says it wouldnt do that much damage to a rhino, but in gameplay terms it's easier to wound and get damage through on most heavy armor, and Data knows I missed plenty of neutron laser shots to know I shouldnt really rely on averages. Hopefully my other fire support or knights can pick up where dice miss / dont do to much damage!

[Mushkilla]

 

It's not terrible - especially given it's cost - but I don't think it's as good as some people believe.

 

The Thermal Cannon (in a vacuum obviously), will do 7 wounds average on a Rhino. 

This means that it is actually outperformed by every close combat weapon we have vs that same target - including feet. It gets better results than River dancing on other armored targets, but any other combination of assault weapon - even if not on a Gallant - eclipses it entirely against any form of armour.

 

It's sobering to think about for me.

 

Unless you have a real need to be at range constantly (and as has been stated - if you miss assault, you miss up to half, or more, of your damage potential), you should have taken a Warden.

 

 

 

As you said you are looking at those stats in a vacuum. They don't take into account that you have to successfully charge, just add a charge distance that requires a 7 and the reaper goes to 6.4 and the gauntlet to 5.8. Then take into account things like screening units, counter assault units, and transports and a melee weapon like the reaper/gauntlet becomes a lot less appealing. Finally add the opportunity cost of using a Reaper/Gauntlet, with a thermal cannon I can shoot and stomp. So the damage value should be seen as Thermal cannon + Feet vs Reaper/Gauntlet. Lets not forget the awesome intimidation factor that the thermal cannon has on overwatch. 

 

EDIT: ... and I think I've just convinced myself to phase out all my wardens to crusaders with thermal cannons. Thank you! :)

[Lysere]

Why would you pay extra points to skip a turn of shooting, though? The only difference would be that you give the enemy the chance to get more shots off before you put his guns to rest, and that you paid points for the chance to do so.

 

The forgeshrine needs a significant buff or rework to be a worthwhile addition to any force, I'm afraid.

 

Funnily enough I had a game the other day where if I had the first turn I would've liked to have had the shrine since my opponent didn't have any important shooting in range turn 1.

 

For the me the Gatling and Thermal are the best two weapons depending on targets because the battle cannon is no better than your stomps even when you roll well while both other weapons have their own advantages over it. I'd never take more than one RFBC in a list and sometimes even then. The only reason I would take more is if I wanted to make the most of the Ironhail stubbers stratagem.

 

Obviously if you're running house Terryn it's a different story but relic weapons shouldn't really count for the discussion.

[Stray]

 

Finally add the opportunity cost of using a Reaper/Gauntlet, with a thermal cannon I can shoot and stomp. So the damage value should be seen as Thermal cannon + Feet vs Reaper/Gauntlet. Lets not forget the awesome intimidation factor that the thermal cannon has on overwatch. 

 

 

Oh Mushy, come now. :)

 

You can't fairly compare Thermal Cannon + feet to Reaper/Gauntlet. You'd need to compare it to say Avenger + Reaper/Gauntlet... and the latter combo comes out on top vs just about any target unfortunately.

 

And yes, the TC is intimidating on overwatch... but nowhere near as intimidating as an AGC with built in heavy flamer I feel.

 

The Thermal Cannon is ok - it's by no means a bad weapon. But there are far, far better tools for tank busting now. Unless you're strapped for points, and it's your sole remaining solution, it's becoming more and more redundant.

[Mushkilla]

 

 

 

Finally add the opportunity cost of using a Reaper/Gauntlet, with a thermal cannon I can shoot and stomp. So the damage value should be seen as Thermal cannon + Feet vs Reaper/Gauntlet. Lets not forget the awesome intimidation factor that the thermal cannon has on overwatch.

 

Oh Mushy, come now. :)

 

You can't fairly compare Thermal Cannon + feet to Reaper/Gauntlet. You'd need to compare it to say Avenger + Reaper/Gauntlet... and the latter combo comes out on top vs just about any target unfortunately.

Why not? We were talking about knight wardens, if you replace the reaper/gauntlet with a thermal cannon you get a crusader. So you would be comparing:

 

thermal cannon + avenger + feet

 

Vs

 

avenger + reaper/gauntlet

 

Removing the common element, the avenger, leaves you with:

 

Thermal cannon + feet Vs reaper/gauntlet

 

My argument isn't that the thermal cannon is better than the avenger. My argument s that it is better than the gauntlet/reaper on a knight that already has an avenger.

 

Does that make more sense?

 

Edit: Obviously this is assuming you have the 46 points to "upgrade" a reaper to a thermal cannon. A interesting comparison for considering the warden would be in a point constrained list where you only had 455pts left to spend:

 

Warden with reaper and storm spear at 452pts.

 

Vs

 

Crusader with thermal cannon at 453pts.

[Stray]

Yeah, it does buddy - and you're quite correct. If it's a Crusader that can also use it's feet, it'll do more than say a Warden and Gauntlet.

 

But not by much, and definitely not once you factor in Strats like Deathgrip. And it'll do so more points efficiently too.

 

I think that's what I'm getting at. The TC is solid, but it's never been amazing - just our best option. Now, we have better. Substantially so on the heavier chassis.

[Mushkilla]

Yeah, deathgrip is definetly powerful, but outside of gallants/wardens with Krast/Mortan/relic gauntlet it's quite unreliable. We are also still somewhat constrained by CP. Then you get into the fact that the reaper is arguably a more reliable weapon now that it's S14 when not considering death grip. Etc etc.

 

As for the bigger knights they have some serious limitations in the "midfield/close assault role". In the case of the Valient it's speed/range/survivability make it a lot less versatile than the crusader, it's movement is 10, it's only effective at 12-18", it's feet are less effective and it is prohibitively expensive to use rotate ion shields.

 

I guess it comes down to I'd rather take a crusader with thermal cannon or a gallant over a valiant/warden/errant?

 

Edit: Unless points constraints force me in that direction, that's where the warden/errant shine for me as options, when you don't want to run a gallant but you can't afford to run a crusader.

[Stray]

I guess it comes down to I'd rather take a crusader with thermal cannon or a gallant over a valiant/warden/errant?

 

Haha, yeah, me too buddy :) - I'm still not sold on the Dominus Chassis in truth.

 

Honestly it's an easier discussion for me, a Crusader when I field one just has a pair of Avengers. That nicely covers our usual issues vs hordes, but I forget it's a literal choice of Avenger + X for Loyalists. Too often, X feels like a tax no?

 

Well, we answered the OP's question pretty conclusively at least. It's been enlightening to see how much regard the RFBC is held in by some though. That's truly surprised me.

[Shinespider]

The Knight Paladin was introduced as the most standard, baseline version of the Knight. I think people (myself included) formed an attachment to the Paladin that transcends silly things like being objectively, mathematically inferior.

[Mushkilla]

The Knight Paladin was introduced as the most standard, baseline version of the Knight. I think people (myself included) formed an attachment to the Paladin that transcends silly things like being objectively, mathematically inferior.

Yeah the irony that house Vulker refer to Paladins as "Optimals". I guess it was intended as an ironic moniker, the Questor mechanicus have a sense of humour, who knew?

[CaptainMarsh]

 

The Avenger is the most reliable. The RFBC is overcosted for what it gives you. This isn't to say that the RFBC can't do work, but it is functionally the same lethality as a Battle Cannon on a Tank Commander who moved under half his movement. That isn't lighting the world aflame, neither does the RFBC. You can roll 2, you can roll 12, command point re-rolls don't guarantee a thing. The RFBC needs something more to justify its point cost. As is, and assuming I'm a rich man with all the Knights, I'd only bring the RFBC if I am bringing the House that has the relic for it. 

 

If you have a Knight with a RFBC, it will probably do whatever job you want it to do often enough for you to feel pleased with it. Knights are good and their weapons hit hard. Just put the anointed oil in the right place and pray to the God-Emperor and Omnissah for good dice luck and laugh as the RFBC tears stuff out. You'll just have to accept the opposite result, too.

 

By the way, if we're including Heavy Flamer vs Heavy Stubber, it does bring the point cost closer. But then you need to consider their profiles as well, and a Heavy Flamer is a much more effective weapon at its role than the Heavy Stubber is at its role. 

 

The Avenger will accomplish more and do it more often, but when you are targeting heavy armour, you will have to accept less than impressive results sometimes. It will do everything else in all nice and toasty, though.

 

If the RFBC gets slammed for having random shots so hard by you then in the same vain the heavy flamer is a terrible weapon. 17 points for D6 shots? Yea you can roll a 6 but you also roll 1s which just blows. Coupled with the short range you need to get it to just means it can't chose better targets which often leads to it having to target those tanks you were hunting with the AGC.

The Heavy Stubber is a FRACTION of the cost at 4 points and can actually do work turn 1 all the way to turn 5 without batting an eye regarding targets. If infantry aren't within 36" of the knight, then mission accomplished! Stubbers also do gain other benefits, imperials get the ability to strap AP1 to theirs which would very easily balance out the whole AP issue (they effectively become primaris bolt weapons) and mechanicus can have them become decent overwatch guns with various side benefits (however I admit, the mechanicus side is a little weak).

 

Sorry, but I feel you are arguing in favour of the heavy flamer purely because you don't want to discredit the already landsliding winning AGC in the argument there Marsh. Heavy Stubbers are very effective at their role as well, they may not seem to put favourable with our other weapons (we are talking about the weapon knights use for point defence here, they were never meant to be the main gun. They function the same as a commander's cupola weapon mount) but do not underestimate stubbers. They help chip away the chaff and can do so every turn. After all, a consistent 3 shots is nothing to scoff at, it will never let you down with a bad roll and since the flamer does cost a real premium of 17 points, it better do some pretty good work to get those points back! The Stubber effectively does so by knocking one guardsman out, the flamer needs to get a marine or two before it is paying points back.

 

If I was given the choice between a Heavy Flamer vs a Heavy Stubber on any platform, I'd take it. I have never liked Heavy Stubbers and don't still, and since I've been running my lists as Mechanicus, my experience is put there. I'm arguing in favor of a weapon that I believe does its role better. D6 shots- that autohit. Ones suck, sixes rock, I'm expecting between 3 or 4. Higher Strength and native AP. Excellent in overwatch. Great for putting down some infantry before a charge. The Heavy Stubber? The Heavy Stubber is...cheap. And thats fine, but the lack of native AP kills it for me. 

 

Sorry, but I feel as if you're arguing in favor of the Heavy Stubber purely because you don't want to admit the RFBC is...actually none of that is true, I know we just have differing opinions. But that part in your post was honestly super annoying to read. I'd appreciate not assuming such things in the future, thank you.

[Vel'Cona]

Calmer heads, brothers.  This discussion isn't about passive-aggressive posturing.

[Karhedron]

Calmer heads, brothers.  This discussion isn't about passive-aggressive posturing.

 

Agreed. Remember it is possible to have a difference of opinion without anyone having to be wrong.

[Nusquam]

I always forget the RFBC has a co-axial** heavy stubber. There's the solution right there; reroll hits against a Target the stubber hit. It has range for when you need it and a reason to shoot something up close and not feel wasted.

[9x19 Parabellum]

well this has been a very informative conversation for me, thanks to everyone who participated in it!

[Tiger9gamer]

well this has been a very informative conversation for me, thanks to everyone who participated in it!

 

no problem! Honestly it all comes down to user preference. secret is to try and magnatize everything to try every main gun!

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

well this has been a very informative conversation for me, thanks to everyone who participated in it!

 

no problem! Honestly it all comes down to user preference. secret is to try and magnatize everything to try every main gun!

 

 

OH yes, I magnetize everything. I"m a fiend.

 

Well tonight was the maiden voyage of my Imperial Knights (1500 pts). I used Taranis since it was easy to remember (6+ FNP)

 

1 Knight Warden (Noah) with heavy stubber and Ironstorm Rocket Pod (warlord, endless fury, ion bulwark

1 Knight Errant (Enoch) with heavy stubber and Ironstorm Rocket Pod (ravager)

1 Armiger Warglaive (heavy stubber)

 

I supplemented with a Blood Angels Battalion

1 Captain Smashypants

1 Brother Corbulo

 

6 Tacs

6 Tacs

10 Scouts with a power sword

 

I went up against a big Necron infantry force (3x20 warriors, 2 Crypteks and 1 Lord, 2x3 Wraiths, 2x10 Deathmarks)

 

Long story short, a massive, crushing victory for the Knights.  He had no anti-armor (I guess it's one of those meta-changing things being discussed in a different thread where he was expecting infantry)

[CaptainMarsh]

I always forget the RFBC has a co-axial** heavy stubber. There's the solution right there; reroll hits against a Target the stubber hit. It has range for when you need it and a reason to shoot something up close and not feel wasted.

A strategem such as this would go a long way I think.

[Karhedron]

I went up against a big Necron infantry force (3x20 warriors, 2 Crypteks and 1 Lord, 2x3 Wraiths, 2x10 Deathmarks)

 

Long story short, a massive, crushing victory for the Knights.  He had no anti-armor (I guess it's one of those meta-changing things being discussed in a different thread where he was expecting infantry)

I think that Necrons would have a tough time against Knights due to their relatively few numbers of high S, multi damage weapons. Heavy Destroyers are like Lascannons but are expensive and usually only a few are taken at a time. Doomsday Arks are very dangerous but are also fragile and will likely be a Knight player's #1 target. Once the Heavy Destroyers and Arks are gone, the Necron player will be struggling to chip away at Knights with his anti-infantry guns.