Fan Made Black Templars 8th Edition Codex

[BloodWolves]

I was also thinking of adding

"Eternal Crusaders" - *Crusader Squads only* recieve 1 additional attack if they preceeded to charge before.

 

Im just afraid that this might add too much for a Crusader squad who ultimately if armed with a Chainsword will now have 3 attacks in the fight phase.

 

I could make this a single fight phase stratagem though.

 

Does anyone else think that this would be too OP for a Troop choice?

[Shamansky]

I was also thinking of adding

"Eternal Crusaders" - *Crusader Squads only* recieve 1 additional attack if they preceeded to charge before.

 

Im just afraid that this might add too much for a Crusader squad who ultimately if armed with a Chainsword will now have 3 attacks in the fight phase.

 

I could make this a single fight phase stratagem though.

 

Does anyone else think that this would be too OP for a Troop choice?

That's a simple troop choice. It has no invul saves by itself and Templars can't get psykers to bolster defences. So i think those potential 60 attacks will easily shrink to 30-40 on the way to their target. Chaiswords and combat knives are just s4 ap 0 d1 weapons. To make it somehow fearsome you'll need a Marshal nearby

[BloodWolves]

With your regards towards attack bikes.. I would keep them in the Bike Squad as an option to take. They are rare to see on the field so I dont see them as a major impact in the game. So by all means, keep em and run em

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Before this thing gets out of hand with rules bloating and adding a whole new mix of new units in an already congested Codex...

 

The initial question that must be asked before writing a new Codex/Index out of thin air is why?

 

Answer these few questions first to get a feel of how you should write this index...

 

• What's wrong with the current rules for Black Templars?
• How do you think the Black Templars should be played?
• Do you think Black Templars need to be more powerful than "x-army", "y-army", etc.?
• Why do you think Black Templars need to be more powerful or less powerful than "x-army"?
• Does the new rules coincide with the overall backstory and current background of the Black Templars?
• Will these new rules make it fun overall (you and your opponent) to play with or against Black Templar armies?
• How do you think the entire community would respond to these new rules?
• How would these new rules increase the profit of our company?

After answering these questions, I have no doubt that you'd see making rules or indexes at a whole new light, and would probably try for a more balanced and less bloated rules set for the boys in black... removing certain units from the roster as sacrifice isn't helping GWs cause, the moment you take off options for Whirlwinds, Devastators, Centurions, etc. GW sees $$$ being put back in the shelf for Templar players, especially seeing that BA and DA have now got the same and more equipment than the Vanilla armies for C:SM.

 

Getting vows is one thing, but making our veterans outright stronger than BA: Death Company, which are crazed murder maniacs without a hint of sense left in them or Khorne Berzerkers, which are crazed murder maniacs without a hint of sense left in them, doesn't necessarily fit the description or imagery of Black Templar Sword Brethren... they could just be similar to Crusader Squads, except more like mixing both Sternguard and Vanguard Veteran attributes into one squad, instead of having 2 separate squads, and the same can go for Templar Terminators, you can just have a "Terminator Squad" which has access to everything a Terminator and Assault Terminator Squad would have... also, Librarians weren't replaced by Crusader Squads, Librarians were replaced by the Emperor's Champion, single model, not so tough, can remove models in comes into contact with... the only difference is that the EC does not buff your army similar to how Librarians do... Crusader Squads are our bonus squad similar to how Dark Angels have access to Terminator Command Squads.

 

There are so many things I wished BT could have, but over-bloating their rules once more causes issues with power creep (which is making a comeback in 8th edition) and that's no fun for most players in the community, except for "that guy" that always has the most recent and powerful army in the game and replaces armies every time a Codex/Index is released...

 

I mean I'm sorry for being a negative nancy, but I think we should focus on what imagery you want to show when running or playing Templars and if you and your opponent is going to have fun instead of suddenly being the most powerful army in the entire game...

[Schlitzaf]

Rou; DA and BA don’t have access to universal Vanilla Marine Kit for example they notably lack Centurions, Ironclads, Honor Guard, the new Fliers (not Ravens the ones following), and the new Terminator Variants.

 

In fact BA has 8 Unique Datasheets and are missing 8 Space Marine Datasheets. And in all seriousness have you tried to read through my entire post? It seems like everyone here has stopped reading after the name change section

 

Or were you talking to Rou? Realized post could go either way and I’ll answer your questions in the morning

[BloodWolves]

And Ive gone through that checklist over and over. Hence why I've been trying to add things that make sense and dont make the Black Templars OP. Because in the large sense, making them OP like the Ultramarines doesn't seem right.. it actually insults the definition of Zeal. I dont want to see the Black Templars hide behind a Guilliman and be much scared marines. Yuck. I left collecting UM because of that reason. What I'm trying to do is add a bit of balance and to make the Black Templars a tenth as powerful as the lore writes.

 

I personally do not think that this Index has been *poof* out of thin air. I think if you read through the forum, You'll find alot of people who want a change (both big and small).

But I've said time and time again.

I am not here to upset the meta. I personally just have some time and I have found a liking towards the Black Templars. But I will try my best to answer your questions.

 

- After being rolled into Codex Marines.. even though we are just as unique as the BA or SW, we are losing a bit of what made the Black Templars unique.

 

- I think they should be played with a more emphasis on Blade and CQC. I wouldn't mind seeing more "Black Tide" armies vs Gunlines but as a Marine.. being adept with a bolter and ranged weapons shouldnt be out of the question.

 

- Im not trying to make them more powerful than X or Y. I want to make them fun to play against X or Y and not be smited off the table by turn 3. Other then the fans of the Black Templars, I want to see new players take a look at UM and Black Templars in their hands and choose to collect Black Templars.

 

- After reading books like Helsreach and The Glorious Tomb and even that mention in Black Legion.. It seems only right to try and restore the rightful power that is behind the Black Templars. Black Templars are that one army that has traits we wish to be. Fierce, determined and honorable. I believe we secretly pick Chapters that reflect our own personal character. But thats for a more philosophical question/ topic.

 

- I am attempting my best at not changing too much. Hence why I've had to throw away alot of good and unique ideas given by others on this site. I hate doing it because I know people have given lots of thought and creative energy but I know GW wont listen to the index im even trying to create, nevertheless far fetched ideas given here.

 

- Well, Im hoping so. Im trying to consult with long time Black Templar players, new Black Templars players and other army players about how to make playing against the Black Templars more challenging and therefore more fun.

 

- I think Black Templar players would like it. Mostly for the fact that they regain their well deserved unique identity. It would be an awesome first that anyone had a chance to convice GW of anything. Do I think my Index will do that.. hahah most definitely not. But when a battle makes it past a few rounds.. it'll be loads more fun.

 

- The Black Templars are a well known Space Marine Army. Their Books and Lore are some of the most influential and popular ones. YouTubers like Mordian Glory for example who is a long time IG player, even decided to start a Black Templars army. For GW, Updates to models and maybe some creations of 3-5 unique new characters would bolster alot of new numbers.

I have tried my best to avoid discarding units and gone with amalginating and renaming units. Just watch the thread between me and Schlitzaf.. Ive had to shoot down most, if not all his inputs because they desire too much change. But at the same time, some changes are needed to warrant a separate Index and then Codex.

 

At the sake of derailing this thread. A Sword Brethren Vet vs a DC Vet is where I would argue the most with you. Look at angry, enraged drunk people.. who are straight up crazed berserkers. Swinging crazy and wild. Not a bit of sense in them. But I always found that theres always that one well trained guy in boxing or jujitsu that just subdues the enraged drunk with ease. Take boxing the well trained and well disciplined Boxer was and is always the better boxer (Mike Tyson, Vasyl Lomachenko, Anthony Joshua, Ali all for examples). This is not to say that the Black Templars are timid.. they are just as violent but fighting smarter always wins.

Recent example: Watch Matt Serra (Former UFC Champion)just disarm a drunk jerk. Its on alot of MMA news articles.

 

And yes, I believe the Sword Brethren are held to a higher standard than the DC and therefore should be better. The DC are only given a status because they are for a sake of ease.. "mutants" of a heavily flawed geneseed. A DC Vet could be the worst rookie Tactical Marine who just happened to be "triggered" and is now consumed by the Black Rage and is somehow now considered to be an elite warrior? I personally think, to be considered Elite.. you must be a long surviving member who is well trained and well versed in combat. Someone who is a complete warrior both mentally and physically. I believe you should be a leader. Not just a bunch of crazed individuals who have a flaw. To discredit your comment that it does not suit the imagery or background that the Sword Brethren is worthy of being better than the DC, I will remind you that it is from the Sword Brethren and only the Sword Brethren that the Black Templars elect their Marshals if one were to fall. So if a Marshal can be found in the Sword Brethren, they are without a doubt the best of the best of the Black Templars.

 

NOTE:

***I do WHOLEHEARTEDLY believe a Sword Brother Vet would decimate a Death Company Vet or a Khorne Berserker in combat.***

I do mean this with no bias, as hard as it may be to believe.

Feel free to quote this comment.

 

I personally think the idea of mixing Vanguard, Sternguard, and Company Veterans and Terminators (Standard and Assault) would be a move. As that means I have not erased a unit but added a unique Black Templar unit that is lore respectable. For GW.. that means people will have to buy 4 sets to compile a combined Sword Brethren unit. Ask Deathwatch.. they made a killing. GW could even recreate a Black Templars Upgrade sprue.. another source of income. New transfers too.. cause most of us suck at doing the cross equal and correct. Well I speak for myself and I suck at it.

 

I will thank you for this though, this bit here has given me a bit more inspiration and some ground to stand with the ideas of Vows..

I think by that comparison of the Emperors Champion to a Lib. The Emperors Champion should be responsible for issuing Vows (similar to buffs but with a shorter range and not as drastic effects) and it gives another reason to field him. I still stand by the idea that Chaplains should be able to deny the witch and I'll go to the grave saying that.

 

I hope I answered your questions. I thank you for your post and your thought provking questions. I will make sure to reread them as I continue on with this Index. I apologize for the long post. But I do not apologize for my passion and as corny to say, Zeal.

A comment on this thread here said it best.. Do not settle for mediocracy.

Do I believe I will make a change? No.

Will I finish it? Maybe.

But I vowed to at least try.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I hope I don't derail this as well, but I can see your points on the matter, it was just that most of the rules that were being displayed were too bloated for my taste, and there was too many rules stacked on certain units... like the warlord trait for example... the first one is 2 rules stacked as one... maybe just set warlord traits to 1 rule each and make it 2 rules for the Chapter Trait similar to Imperial Fists or White Scars... instead of just the reroll to charge that we have right now...

 

Also, while it works with Deathwatch, there would be mixed rules issues with combining both Terminator armored and Power armored models in one squad, the first thing that comes into mind is Deep Striking... you'd have to have some sort of restriction as to if they can Deep Strike or not, and Jump Packs as well which will screw up movement and all sorts or other rules issues... I think keeping the Power Armor with other Power Armor and having the Power Armored squad purchase the Jump Packs as a whole, while keeping the Terminator Armor Squad separate from the Power Armor Squad would be a lot better as there would be less issues with ironing out the rules...

 

You may be late for the party, but the Emperor's Champion HAS been responsible for issuing the vows for the entire Black Templars army... it used to be that if you had a force which is 750 pts. and above, you have to take an Emperor's Champion, and the Emperor's Champion comes with vows that you have to pay points for which are mandatory for running him... the EC became a required character for Templars back in the days of the 4th ed. book, and while that made it fun, it also restricted players as they always have to take him and he eats up a bit of points... but hey, he doesn't count towards the HQ slot, so that was a bonus and that means that unlike most armies back in the days, we can have 3 HQs instead of the max limit 2.

 

I do agree that Chaplains should have some sort of power to negate Psychic powers, but not just in the rank of Templars, but to the entire Space Marine faction overall... it would make taking Chaplains in any Space Marine army worth it, instead of auto-picking Librarians all the time... maybe a 5+ deny roll that you could use once a Turn if the caster/target is within 6" of the Chaplain?

 

And here is where we don't see eye-to-eye... while a very skilled swordsman could easily take down a drunken barbarian, Berzerkers and Death Co. Veterans are a whole different thing in comparison... while you used the context of a MMA fighter vs a drunk guy, if the drunk guy was also drunk MMA fighter, then that would have been a better comparison to a SB vs a DC or a Berzerker match up... Berzerkers for example, while drunk on rage and may seem to be swinging wildly, were warriors for at the least 10,000 years... (or depending on the timeline of your fluff would be a minimum 200 years), they have the skills, knowledge and instinct of a veteran with the wrath, strength and ferocity given to them by their bloodthirsty deity... and even if the SB is one of the best warriors in the chapter, against a Khorne Berzerker, he would surely still have problems with fighting them... a Berzerker would still have that honed instinct to strike at vital areas, that innate sense to hit where the armor is most vulnerable and can ultimately over-power a Space Marine which just relies on gene enhanced muscles and technique while they are powered by the gifts of the warp... as for DC that's a completely different beast altogether, it takes a while for the Black Rage to consume a Blood Angel, only a few succumb to it after a short period of time after becoming Astartes, but more often it takes its toll on those who have served the chapter the longest... majority of those in the ranks of the Death Company were those Space Marines which served as Command Squad members, high ranking Veterans, and even renowned Captains such as Tycho... but he's dead so don't worry about him... sure some of these guys may not be as skilled as our Sword Brethren, but they should be more ferocious than our Sword Brethren mainly because of how crazed they have become...

Our Sword Brethren should be reflected on rules that makes them more skillful, not ferocious, they aren't blood thirsty maniacs, and they shouldn't be represented that way... giving them the ability to attack twice, same with Berzerkers or will always attack first like they were blessed with Slaanesh speed... it doesn't really reflect how they should be represented rules-wise on the table... they should be more like zealots, that have focused their wrath into their skills and can deal devastating blows by using their techniques, or are just more disciplined than an average Space Marine.

 

Maybe a different set of rules that emphasizes skill more than power should be given to them... something more like adding 1 to the results of their to Hit/to Wound Dice results, or maybe rerolling failed to Wound rolls of 1 or dealing 2 W instead of 1 on a roll of a 6... something along those lines instead of just adding more attacks or giving them a sudden burst of speed...

 

Space Marines as a faction is a scalpel, Templars should be no different, they may be a sword shaped, thrice blessed, larger sized scalpel that is soaked in prometheum and quite possibly be on fire, but it is a scalpel faction nonetheless...

 

edit: I had to edit that, it was nigh unreadable...

[BloodWolves]

Well see, this is a reply I can appreciate. Theres alot for me to learn and Im glad we can discuss this and you have answeres fully. Thank you.

 

Yes, I do need major help on D6 warlord traits. I will keep Righteous Zeal as the Chapter Trait.. I think it suits the Black Templars well. I know someone posted having a 3D6 pick the highest 2 for charges.. but again it might be asking for too much change.

 

But I think blending the units is good because well like the Deathwatch, its up to you to manage the Deep Strike or Jump Squad. You could have a pure Jump Squad Sword Brethren or pure Terminator Sword Brethren or mix both but you will lose deep stike and have to manage unit cohesion better. Its a sacrifice if you blend. But sometimes you just want 2-3 Terminators. I'll keep the respective Terminator Squads for people to take but a hybrid Sword Brethren unit will be available.

 

The Emperors Champion I think should be restored to that high reverance. More than just a monster killer. I will need help with ideas of how to reintroduce Vows. Also, if he is issuing out Vows.. how many points should he be worth? Should Vows be worth points against the Emperors Champion? Pay per unit that take the vow? Or a CP thing?

 

I have seen that Chaplains gaining the ability to Deny the Witch is a big want for the Space Marine Community. I would name the power

"Master of Sanctity": A Chaplain may attempt a single Deny the Witch during the Psychic Phase.

Nice and simple. Make the Chaplain after 77pts and call it good.

 

Again, with the Sword Brethren, I still believe they should be elevated to a status near equal to the DC in the game (I know it wont fly with GW as DC is all the rage haha) but the sword brethren should have a good benefit to being taken. Sidenote: I still think they should be higher than the DC in the lore. Rage is blinding.. your experience and veteran knowledge of combat goes out the window if the "Black Rage" is as bad as its written. A enraged George St. Pierre is no comparison to the Martial Artist GSP. And I would find Berzerkers just wanting to hit anything.. not worrying about vital areas. A Sword Brethren would be trained in isolating joints and knowing where to poke for vital areas. But I think we will have to agree to disagree on the point of the background.

 

I was thinking they attack twice because of finesse and being artists of the blade. I would make them WS2+ but thats too much. I just am not sure how to reflect it well. See.. Im not a fan of doing rerolls for either hit or wound because I dont see Helbrecht being a sissy like other CMs and hiding back for safety. I would field him in the same LRC as the main force of Crusaders and Sword Brethren are in. The 2 wounds on a roll of 6+ is rather enticing though but is it enough of a change that would help the Black Templars in combat enough to male a difference? Maybe on wound rolls 5+ They cause a Mortal Damage? Which would represent their swordsmanship? I will keep that in mind.

 

Yes, Space Marines are a scalpel but I think if you play Black Templars the way they were created to be played as a Crusading Black Tide.. they should be a big scalpel.

[ChaosCrusader]

Hi 

 

Id love to play test this when you have it more finalised! Are you making it into a small downloadable file??

[Medjugorje]

I think we should decide what we want. I would do a survey...

 

with different points like:

 

- own new codex

- codex like 4th edition

- codex like codex armageddon

...

 

for my part i would like to see a codex based on the 4th edition stand-alone codex with vows...

 

The question is how to build in that rules.

[Schlitzaf]

Warlord Traits Medj, Warlord Traits. Either as part of our 6 Warlord Traits or create a seperate table that can only be taken by CHAMPION models. Otherwise this poor dead horse I have beaten, but I have a semi-finalized version of my Homebrew Black Templar Codex. Anyone curious on why units exist or dropped feel free to ask. But most cases the dropped units were bombardment or long range stationary fire power units. Centurions were dropped because they are slow moving units. Thunderfire were on the crisp for similar and honeslty likely another unit to go if I had to cut another thing.

 

But in regards to vows; Warlord Traits.

[Medjugorje]

I would prefer that as Stratagems bofore the game stars... so you could use those before the game starts (and vect cannot do anything against it^^)

 

each of them cost 3 CP and you just allowed to use one (just one) if your army have a emperors champion.

[Schlitzaf]

That be fine too. I’d cost it at 2CP. I am just vehemently against any one shot strategems that is reused like abhor or other in-game strategems

[BloodWolves]

Don't worry, I have not abandoned this Index idea. I am just taking a break from Black Templar related stuff. I am also working on a Flesh Tearers Index now as well. Thank you all!

[BloodWolves]

Writing also a Kill Team Black Templars Chapter Focus that has been sent to GW

[Medjugorje]

So then I think the idea of having the C:SM stratagem of Captain being upgraded to Chapter Master will be unavailable to Black Templars.

 

(Even though Ive seen Crimson Fist players elect a captain to be a chapter master instead of Kantor, or an RG captain to CM instead to Shrike, or an UM captain to CM instead of Calagar.. well you get my point. Lots of Chapters who have chapter master models do get replaced for a single battle.)

 

Anyway, Im sorry Schlitaf... I dont think i will add those new unit names. It will be difficult for new and old players to know what they are, like for example a Conquistador squad. No one, pardon you and anyone who has read this thread knows what that is. Its a good idea but I think keeping it simple for now is the best course of action.

 

It'll be an easier of a port over if we just try and keep what the Black Templars are currently in 8th Edition but reintroduce Black Templar exclusive Stratagems and vows to boost. Like i said.. I dont think the right way to go about this is to make the Black Templars OP with access to lots of wargear and power weapons and new units with too many new rules.

 

I dont use this stratagem often - because my warlord stays a captain and I bring Helbrecht too.

And nearby...

 

The lists you can build are not for this time only... if you want to play a M37 match... you cannot bring helbrecht but a high marshal

[Schlitzaf]

Medj, a prior High Marshall would use the Sword of HighMarshall, and artificer armor. About only argument you could make is his secondary weapon (CombiMelta) would change. Like I get it sucks, but if we are going to get our own index/codex we will lose “Chapter Master”.

 

And in its place get a Themed Character Strategem (Inner Circle/DeathVisions). My suggestion of creating “CHAMPION” Keyword, for EC, Company (Crusade) Champion, And Chapter (Household) Champion, then let certain chapter specific buff proc would be more natural.

 

That said, I admit I am in the minority. But also how many folks saying “no name change” actually read what I posted?

[Medjugorje]

Medj, a prior High Marshall would use the Sword of HighMarshall, and artificer armor. About only argument you could make is his secondary weapon (CombiMelta) would change. Like I get it sucks, but if we are going to get our own index/codex we will lose “Chapter Master”.

 

And in its place get a Themed Character Strategem (Inner Circle/DeathVisions). My suggestion of creating “CHAMPION” Keyword, for EC, Company (Crusade) Champion, And Chapter (Household) Champion, then let certain chapter specific buff proc would be more natural.

 

That said, I admit I am in the minority. But also how many folks saying “no name change” actually read what I posted?

ok

[BloodWolves]

So after seeing the SW CT.. a possible suggestion for a Black Templars Chapter Tactics:

Righteous Zeal

"The Black Templars are fueled by anger and driven by zeal, these warriors seemingly attack with an neverending flurry of attacks."

 

The Black Templars may reroll fail charges, in addition, in a single Fight Phase in which a unit with this ability makes a successful charge, was charged or made a Heroic Intervention, you may add +1 attacks to a maximum of 4 attacks during a single Fight phase.

 

So this would reflect off how the SW now hits better with "Hunters Unleashed (+1 to hit)", how the BA wound better with "Red Thirst (+1 to wound)" and this would give the Black Templars more attacks "Righteous Zeal (Reroll failed charges and +1 attack)".

 

I could see this being a bit OP because they get reroll failed charges so I would maybe limit this to a single fight phase for the +1 attack.

[BloodWolves]

I think i also wrote in a counter to us losing the Chapter Master rule..

 

"To further separate themseleves from their fellow Battle Brothers who follow the Codex Astartes, the Black Templars have their own traditional rank titles.

- Marshals are equivalent to a Codex Adeptus Astartes Captain.

- Castellans are equivalent to Codex Adeptus Astartes Lieutenants

- High Marshal is equivalent to a Chapter Master.

A single Marshal may be upgraded to High Marshal but must use the wargear of

- The Sword of High Marshall

- Artificer Armor

Permitted that High Marshal Helbrecht is not already fielded."

[Sword Brother Adelard]

What about Terminator Helbrecht? It would be more appropriate fluff wise, he is known to wear his TDA from time to time.

(also, did anyone ever notice that between Codex:Armageddon and Codex: Black Templars they retconned Helbrecht having an eye implant?)

[BloodWolves]

Ohhhh.. I did not notice that! I would be more than happy to add Helbrecht in Terminator Armour. What stories have him in Terminator Armour?? I would love to see that in a model.

With that, I could add "Chapter Master" in Terminator Armour as well!

[StMichael]

I've always been of the opinion that a unified design by one or two people with help from others will lead to a better result than open suggestions from all, but there's no harm in discussing it anyway.

 

I haven't played in quite a while, I believe 6th edition was the last time I broke out my boys in black and 5th edition was the last rulebook I bought. So naturally, I'd have to relearn everything and find out how the game works these days before designing any kind of game rules. That said, I took a good look at the new fluff around 8th edition, and I believe there's an interesting opportunity for the Black Templars to have some distinct and fitting lore advancement: 

 

The Inquisition has long suspected the BTs of non-adherence to the Codex Astartes, but they've never had any hard evidence of anything short of fanatical devotion to the Emperor and the Great Crusade. But with the crisis on Cadia and the rupture of the Eye of Terror splitting the galaxy in half, this provides the perfect opportunity for the Black Templars to rally their full strength in defense of the Imperium, only to be tragically outed by an Inquisitor.

 

Branded as dangerous traitors who have violated codex astartes laws governing the numbers in a chapter, the Black Templars choose exile over destruction. Rather than abandon their vow to the Eternal Crusade, however, High Marshal Helbrecht sees an opportunity to evade their inquisitorial pursuers and continue their crusade by traveling beyond the Great Rift and into the Dark Imperium. Though they may be exiles, they continue their crusade by coming to the defense of sectors cut off from the light of the Astronomicon. Progress is slow, and travel is dangerous without the Astronomicon, but they continue willingly; for the Galaxy belongs to the Emperor, and the Black Templars will not rest until it is safe.

[BloodWolves]

But that sounds borderline Heretical. And the Inquisition has no qualms with the Black Templars.. they even use them as personal escorts, if you remember the Space Marine game, it is a retinue of Black Templars that escort the arresting inquisitor of captain Titus.

 

But your creativity is noted and interesting! Thanks

[Sete]

If the Inquisition is out to get someone, there are like 200 chapters in line to be purged before BT lol