Kasper_Hawser Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Hi guys, I make this thread reluctantly as it means I'm considering having a Knight to fit in my lists. As most of you know, generally my army lists have always been 2 HQs, 3 plasma MSU Grey Hunters in 3 Razorbacks, a Stormwolf and 3 Long Fangs. I was comfortable with this list, right until I met a CSM player with 60 cultists and a Renegade Knight with both arms with big guns, RFB and Avenger gun and missiles (the krak kind). With his Knight being able to reach the whole table, I took a chance and rushed his Knight with my Stormwolf, hoping to at least knock it off a tier. But guess what? FAQ came out for RK the other knights, with 2 strategems. AND THAT WAS ALL HE NEEDED TO STOMP ME! Sigh, in the end, rotated ion shields deflected my alpha Stormwolf strike, all lascannons and Hellfrost were blocked. my twin heavy bolters went to his cultists but in the end, he basically regenerated the entire damn thing with the tide of traitors bit. I think my general plan was sound, but after the Stormwolf was destroyed, I had nothing else that could reliably smash the Knight. My three Long Fangs had a missile, Lascannon and Plasma cannon each, but he just picked them off at 72" range, and also used Oblits to pressure my frontline. Sigh, unsatisfying though not entirely unexpected. It's like everything I did was easily countered. I had Bjorn, but that pesky Knight just kited from far away while the Oblits closed in with a DP. Oh and Oblits were Slaanesh too.... ..... Anyway, I would like to ask those who do use Knights as allies or support: which do you thing is best? At the moment, my preference are the double auto cannon helverins, But to field those, it means either getting rid of my Long Fangs, or my Stormwolf. Now I want to hear your arguments for and against. Again, my general army is 2 HQs , one of which maybe Bjorn, and 3 GHs with 3 Razorbacks, 3 Long Fangs and Stormwolf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Helverins are nice but very slightly niche. They basically have 2 Predator auotcannons each. This means they excel at taking down units with invulnerable saves or poor normal saves where their modest AP-1 is not a hindrance. They are also great vs Flyers if you use the stratagem "Skyreaper Protocols" to reroll all misses against flying units. They will not help greatly against an enemy Knight as they will only wound him on a 5+ and he will still save on a 4+. 2 Helverins firing at a Knight will average around 5 wounds per firing phase. They will do better against DPs and Oblits though due to the fixed 3 damage and S7. To deal with an enemy Knight, the best option in your toolbox is a Gallant (which also happens to be the cheapest Knight too) but you really need the combination of House Trait, Warlord Trait and Heirloom (relic) to get the best out of him. I would therefore suggest running a minimum sized Lance detachment consisting of 1 Gallant and 2 Helverins which will get you 3CPs (after the Knight FAQ), as well as access to the traits and Heirloom you need. The SW relic is pretty poor so I would not bother taking it give your free Relic to the Gallant. Knight Lance: House Terryn +3CPs Gallant: Landstrider (Warlord Trait) Paragon Gauntlet (Relic), Reaper Chainsword, Heavy Stubber 2 x Helverins with 2 autocannons and 1 heavy stubber each This Lance comes to just 712 points. The Helverins give you mobile fire support and are more effective than the Ac Razorbacks against most targets except cultists. The real deal here though is the Gallant who can easily one-shot an enemy Knight in close combat. If you have not been through the Knight codex in detail, let me explain how he works and how the various traits interact. Firstly the Gallant is built for CC unlike regular Knights to has 5 attacks rather than 4 and a whopping WS2+. His Relic is the Paragon Gauntlet which is better than the usual Knight Gauntlet in 2 regards. Firstly it does 8 damage rather than 6, and secondly it does not have the usual -1 to Hit penalty. This is huge as he will hit your opponent on a 2+, wound on a 2+, negate his saves (thanks to AP-4 and Knights have no invulnerable save in melee) and do 8 damage each time. That means you only need to wound with 3 of your 5 attacks to kill your opponent outright. You can always spend a CP if you whiff your wound rolls. If this guy charges your opponent's Knight, he will almost certainly kill it before it can even strike back. If your opponent does strike back, you have a lot less to fear since he has gone for a shooty build with no CC weapons so he will be wounding you on a 4+ and you will still get a 5+ save. The challenge is get him into close combat which is where the House Terryn Trait and the Landstrider Warlord Trait come into play. House Terryn Knights roll and extra D6 when advancing or charging and pick the highest. Landstrider gives +2" to Advance and Charge moves. The stratagem "Full Tilt" costs 2CPs but allows you to Advance and Charge in the same turn. Your Knight gets a 12" move, an average 6.5" advance and then an average 11" charge. This means on Turn 1 you have an average charge range of 29.5"! (more if you are willing to CP your Advance/Charge rolls in case you whiff). That is a phenomenal threat range and easily enough for a T1 charge. Your opponent will not be kiting away from that thing unless you play on a very large board. ;) Your Gallant costs 364 points compared to the 500+ points you opponent will have paid for his gunner Knight. Once your Gallant has dispatched the Knight, it can then go to town on any other targets such as DPs or tanks. Even infantry will be at threat because he can use his Titanic Feet to triple his attacks for 15 S8 AP-2 D3 attacks. Yes, this guy hits infantry harder than 4 battle cannons in close combat just by tap-dancing on them. :D Lastly, you opponent cannot tarpit him as he can withdraw (even over enemy infantry/swarms) and still charge. Get this bad boy into your opponent's lines on T1 and he will reap a massive toll. If your opponent tries to bring him down with firepower, Rotate Ion Shields for a 4++ to keep him alive for a bit longer while your Helverins tackle any distant targets. Even if he dies, he should have torn the heart out of the enemy army by that point and the wolves can then shred any survivors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoyo ninja Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 I play Knights as well as Wolves. All the above is good advice, a Gallant is a CC beast. The best way to take out Knights is CC, they don't get their invun in combat. If you want to stay pure wolves, then our CC dreads will do a good job in bringing down an enemy knight. Put them in the FW dread pods (I know they don't make them any more, use a standard pod without the harness in it and call it a counts as) bring them down as close as possible and let them get them stuck in. My only other advice is avoid an arms race. I got my first knight because it's an awesome model, then others in my hobby group at the time (a small group of 5 friends who played together regularly) got equivalents for their armies. So I had to get other big stuff to counter their big stuff as my knight wasn't cutting it... this carried on for a bit and got very expensive. You have been warned Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Axe/Shield dreads rock but have the same problem as Bjorn. A shooty Knight will not find it too hard to keep out of range of them or screen the Knight from charges and Drop Pods with chaff like those Cultists. Of course they can screen against a Gallant too but with its higher move rate, (especially with the traits listed above), it can get around many screens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakendoomcool Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 I have held strong and SO FAR avoided the temptation of knights. BOTH of these armies sound great and now I'm online checking prices for Gallants and Helverins. I didn't even know what they were before reading this. Thanks guys. Sounds like some solid tactics all round. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 I consider myself a pretty staunch mono-player, all this makes me so sad... Needing knights, AM CP batteries for less than the cost of a grey hunter pack...sad times Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakendoomcool Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Stay staunch brother. I'm going to resist for now. Thanks for the pep talk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakendoomcool Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 If I did succumb they would end up being Nurgle knights anyway... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Eh, didn't mean to derail.... Please continue so I can learn all your weaknesses! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 I want to be a mono SW as well but the practical wolf in me decided to use the tools the emperor provided The fluff i am working on is my SW is former deathwatch and very good at his job. he learned which tools work best and forged strong friendships with other arms of humanity along the way he has returned to the pack for what appears to be the wolftime and his allies decided to go with him....so i have assassins with me and likely a vanilla librarian because null zone is game changing (especially for a codex with no stratagems) *edit* my active involvement in ITC competition and tournaments has also shaped my thinking Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 I've been slowly collecting pieces for a Knight army since they were first announced. I'm at critical mass now. I will look to combine them with my wolves in the future. Knights, per their fluff are often sent to loyalists for aid (especially during these dire times), I don't think the SW's would deny aid. Many great stories/ideas of blood oaths attained can be had. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 If you want to run a Knight yet still feel you are keeping to the spirit of Russ, a quick visit to Shapeways will provide you with the parts to convert this bad boy! Armigers can be upgraded too to match. Full range here. https://www.shapeways.com/shops/gadgetsplus?s=0 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgr_maddog Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 I've been a mono-player for decades in the strictest sense, only ever played Space Wolves. That's still true, but couldn't help picking up the Renegade box set for some "cheap" Knights. Still building/magnetizing everything, but hope to pledge one in the ETL. Once painted, I don't think I'll be able to keep from fielding him on occasion, it's such an awesome model dwarfing all my all my Dreads. I'm not sad about it. I'd suggest you try the same Kasper, however I don't have any experience playing them to offer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgr_maddog Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 Oh, and I'm wolfing them up of course! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted June 29, 2018 Author Share Posted June 29, 2018 Wow, I post this yesterday and came back with so much good feedback. @ Karhedrouk - my sincere thanks for providing me a base list centered on getting the Gallant stuck in. As you say, even against hordes, 15 kicks will most likely do the job of clearing them in one go or making majority of them run away. Unless i roll 10 "ones" of course. Not sure if there are reroll strategems in combat, either hitting or wounding, though I think there is a house trait for wounding. Where does that leave the rest of the Wolves though? What to do with rest of my army? Keep my traditional Long Fangs for Lascannon/missile/hellfire bolter? Or maybe as long as I'm rushing forward with the Gallant, I put every Grey Hunter I have with melta and power weapons, or tooled up Blood claws in Rhinos/Land Raider/Stormwolf and rush up as well? From your experiences, how easy is it to kill a Knight at range? I couldn't due to my schizo load out of Long Fangs, but has anyone used a Knight against, say, 3-4 Heavy Support units focus firing on it on a turn and lived? Unlikely you are that dumb to expose the knight, but after hugging terrain, I think its possible for a Knight to hide at least from 1 HS unit a turn. At this moment, before I go on Battlescribe and start drafting the list, I'm inclined to stick with my Long Fangs support. @ yoyo ninja - sound advice except I have atrocious luck with my axe shield dreadnoughts similar to my TWC, which always fails their 3++ and die in ONE round of shooting, even if it is just 2 lascannons getting through. Sigh..... Anyway, we don't have anyway to get around the 9" restriction yet for deepstriking dreadnoughts even if i was inclined to use the FW one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 @ Karhedrouk - my sincere thanks for providing me a base list centered on getting the Gallant stuck in. As you say, even against hordes, 15 kicks will most likely do the job of clearing them in one go or making majority of them run away. Unless i roll 10 "ones" of course. Not sure if there are reroll strategems in combat, either hitting or wounding, though I think there is a house trait for wounding. House Krast allows rerolls to Hit in close combat on the turn they Charge, are Charged or perform a Heroic Intervention. It also works all the time against Titanic opponents. It is a very good trait if you are happy to give up (or seriously reduce) the chance of a Turn 1 charge. If you are running Krast then I would consider taking Armiger Warglaives instead of Helverins as rerolls in CC is very tasty with those Chaincleavers but will not help the Helverins much. Here is a very aggressive lance that is not quite as fast but hits much harder. Knight Lance: House Krast +3CPs Gallant: Landstrider (Warlord Trait) Paragon Gauntlet (Relic), Reaper Chainsword, Heavy Stubber 2 x Warglaives, each with Thermal Spear, melta gun and Chain cleaver This Lance comes to 718 points. The Warglaives give you mobile tank-busting firepower and can hit in melee with either 4 S12 attacks or 8 S6 attacks as the Chaincleaver has 2 attack profiles (either doubling strength or doubling attacks). All these guys can reroll Hits in close combat so will hit hard. The Armigers weapons are Assault (rather than heavy) so they can move and fire D3+1 melta shots at full effect or Advance for greater threat range and still fire at -1 to Hit. Warglaives also benefit from the "Landstrider" Warlord Trait on the Galant as it affects all friendly Knights within 6". The Galant Advances 12+D6" while the Armigers move 14" and shoot normally. Then make your charge rolls for the Armigers first. With the +2 bonus from Landstrider, they will only need an 8+ to make a T1 charge. Not guaarnteed but certainly good enough odds to be worth trying (and if you roll high on one dice, you can always spend a CP to reroll the low one). Once you have rolled for the Armigers, then play "Full Tilt" (charge after advancing) on the Galant for a 2D6+2" charge. Where does that leave the rest of the Wolves though? What to do with rest of my army? Keep my traditional Long Fangs for Lascannon/missile/hellfire bolter? Or maybe as long as I'm rushing forward with the Gallant, I put every Grey Hunter I have with melta and power weapons, or tooled up Blood claws in Rhinos/Land Raider/Stormwolf and rush up as well? Tough call. Since you have a fast assault force in the Knights that will kill heavy targets, I would be tempted to tool up the Hunters to deal with hordes and take objectives. You can probably make do without the Stormwolf and put the Hunters in RBs. From your experiences, how easy is it to kill a Knight at range? I couldn't due to my schizo load out of Long Fangs, but has anyone used a Knight against, say, 3-4 Heavy Support units focus firing on it on a turn and lived? Unlikely you are that dumb to expose the knight, but after hugging terrain, I think its possible for a Knight to hide at least from 1 HS unit a turn. Knights can indeed be killed at range but Rotate Ion Shields makes it a lot harder while your opponent still has CPs. If you throw enough dice at it, sooner or later it will die but don't expect it to be easy. Just to give you an idea, 3 squads of Long Fangs with 5 Lascannons each will do roughly 13 wounds per shooting phase if your opponent Rotates Ion Shields. They should therefore kill a Knight in 2 turns, even without further help but of course your opponent won't simply leave them unmolested while you do it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoyo ninja Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 Knights can be taken out with fire power. If I'm playing just Knights I expect to loose one a turn, it usually takes a full army of shooting. A smart opponent focuses them down. Ion Bulwark (the warlord trait to give you a 4++) is useful, as is the rotate ion shields (+1 to invuln save), it's keeps things alive longer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5114678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melete Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 It's really tricky including Knights but still having enough bodies on the table. Space Wolves are already super elite as it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5115105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Redbeard Posted June 30, 2018 Share Posted June 30, 2018 I have been thinking of getting aome Questoris allies but mainly because I like them and I believe a nordic House with similar values to the Vlka Fenryka. If you wanted to stay Mono, I'd have a list to suggest, excpet IIRC you don't take Primaris but here it is anyways. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [65 PL, 1045pts] ++ + HQ + Wolf Priest [6 PL, 97pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Packs Wolf Guard Battle Leader [6 PL, 85pts]: Frost sword, Jump Packs, Krakenbone Sword, Storm shield Wolf Lord [6 PL, 108pts]: Chainsword, Jump Packs, Storm shield + Troops + Grey Hunters [8 PL, 113pts]: 4x Chainsword . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword . 2x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol . Grey Hunter w/Plasma Pistol: Plasma pistol . Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Chainsword, Combi-plasma Grey Hunters [8 PL, 113pts]: 4x Chainsword . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword . 2x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol . Grey Hunter w/Plasma Pistol: Plasma pistol . Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Chainsword, Combi-plasma Grey Hunters [8 PL, 113pts]: 4x Chainsword . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword . 2x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol . Grey Hunter w/Plasma Pistol: Plasma pistol . Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Chainsword, Combi-plasma + Elites + Wulfen [13 PL, 239pts] . 4x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 4x Storm Shield, 4x Thunder Hammer . 4x Wulfen . Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws + Fast Attack + Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 177pts]: 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant, Plasma Exterminator ++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [50 PL, 955pts] ++ + HQ + Bjorn the Fell-handed [14 PL, 239pts]: 1. Legendary Fighter, Assault cannon, Heavy flamer, Warlord Wolf Guard Battle Leader [6 PL, 78pts]: Chainsword, Jump Packs, Storm shield + Heavy Support + Long Fangs [7 PL, 154pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword Long Fangs [7 PL, 154pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 330pts]: Plasma Incinerator . 9x Hellblaster . Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol ++ Total: [115 PL, 2000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Use Cunning of the Wolf to get thr Helblasters and Wulfen wherever you need them, and get the Wolf Lord, WGBL with Relic and Wolf Priest to support them.with the Inceptors. The extra range of the Plasma Incinerator you can get all 10 Helblasters within Rapid Fire Range. With the threat even if he stays back on turn 2 you can get a good amount of Dakka om them and use turn 1 to get rid of the screen. The bomb has an average of 32 plasma shots, that are relatively safe to overcharge. Even with T8 and rotating the Ion Shields it does an average of 14 wounds. Then you can gamble on a charge from the Wulfen, Wolf Priest and WGBL. If the Wulfen get in, with the rerolls they do about 12 wounds in average. More than enough to blow most Knight in a single turn. Then the Inceptors can move and harass, Wulfen have always good mobility and Hellblasters good range meaning the bomb can be still a threat on next turns. It is a gamble but I think a fun and fluffy (the hunters trap with the Grey Hunters taking the bursen and bravely waiting for a brutal assault to take the heavy weapons and trap the enemy in a pincer) to play against a list with such a high value target. And even if you don't outright kill it, it is very possible that you will cripple it, maybe even reduce it to it's lowest profile. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5115355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 I have been thinking of getting aome Questoris allies but mainly because I like them and I believe a nordic House with similar values to the Vlka Fenryka. If you wanted to stay Mono, I'd have a list to suggest, excpet IIRC you don't take Primaris but here it is anyways. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [65 PL, 1045pts] ++ + HQ + Wolf Priest [6 PL, 97pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Packs Wolf Guard Battle Leader [6 PL, 85pts]: Frost sword, Jump Packs, Krakenbone Sword, Storm shield Wolf Lord [6 PL, 108pts]: Chainsword, Jump Packs, Storm shield + Troops + Grey Hunters [8 PL, 113pts]: 4x Chainsword . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword . 2x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol . Grey Hunter w/Plasma Pistol: Plasma pistol . Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Chainsword, Combi-plasma Grey Hunters [8 PL, 113pts]: 4x Chainsword . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword . 2x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol . Grey Hunter w/Plasma Pistol: Plasma pistol . Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Chainsword, Combi-plasma Grey Hunters [8 PL, 113pts]: 4x Chainsword . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword . 2x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol . Grey Hunter w/Plasma Pistol: Plasma pistol . Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Chainsword, Combi-plasma + Elites + Wulfen [13 PL, 239pts] . 4x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 4x Storm Shield, 4x Thunder Hammer . 4x Wulfen . Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws + Fast Attack + Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 177pts]: 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant, Plasma Exterminator ++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [50 PL, 955pts] ++ + HQ + Bjorn the Fell-handed [14 PL, 239pts]: 1. Legendary Fighter, Assault cannon, Heavy flamer, Warlord Wolf Guard Battle Leader [6 PL, 78pts]: Chainsword, Jump Packs, Storm shield + Heavy Support + Long Fangs [7 PL, 154pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword Long Fangs [7 PL, 154pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 330pts]: Plasma Incinerator . 9x Hellblaster . Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol ++ Total: [115 PL, 2000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Use Cunning of the Wolf to get thr Helblasters and Wulfen wherever you need them, and get the Wolf Lord, WGBL with Relic and Wolf Priest to support them.with the Inceptors. The extra range of the Plasma Incinerator you can get all 10 Helblasters within Rapid Fire Range. With the threat even if he stays back on turn 2 you can get a good amount of Dakka om them and use turn 1 to get rid of the screen. The bomb has an average of 32 plasma shots, that are relatively safe to overcharge. Even with T8 and rotating the Ion Shields it does an average of 14 wounds. Then you can gamble on a charge from the Wulfen, Wolf Priest and WGBL. If the Wulfen get in, with the rerolls they do about 12 wounds in average. More than enough to blow most Knight in a single turn. Then the Inceptors can move and harass, Wulfen have always good mobility and Hellblasters good range meaning the bomb can be still a threat on next turns. It is a gamble but I think a fun and fluffy (the hunters trap with the Grey Hunters taking the bursen and bravely waiting for a brutal assault to take the heavy weapons and trap the enemy in a pincer) to play against a list with such a high value target. And even if you don't outright kill it, it is very possible that you will cripple it, maybe even reduce it to it's lowest profile. Actually I do have most of the models you recommended, the only thing I don't have is an extra 4 plasma cannon Long Fangs, and have yet to finish my remaining 4 Hellblasters to fill up the plasma bomb you are recommending. Very versatile list. My only concern is, as usual, not enough dakka to clear hordes that will undoubtly clog up the Knights, whose job I normally leave to my twin assault cannon razorbacks. Also I'm not confident in taking my Wulfen out this edition, they've mostly underperformed. Well, not underperform, they do smash up everything they touch but I almost always end up overextending them with nobody else being able to follow their speed and punch. Terminators are SLOOOOOOOWWW, Blood Claws end up a liability if they in a big group. Anyway, will bear this in mind R Beard, but at the moment, I'm more interested in synergizing with a Knight list of one big one and 2 small ones. This list might work well against marine equivalent armies with Knights. Unless they also put in a horde of bloody IG. God I hate hordes. Although at least IG horde also exist to shoot, rather than to be disposed off like damned cultists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5116084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Wolf Priest [6 PL, 97pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Packs Wolf Guard Battle Leader [6 PL, 85pts]: Frost sword, Jump Packs, Krakenbone Sword, Storm shield Wolf Lord [6 PL, 108pts]: Chainsword, Jump Packs, Storm shield Wulfen [13 PL, 239pts] Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 177pts]: 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant, Plasma Exterminator Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 330pts]: Plasma Incinerator Use Cunning of the Wolf to get thr Helblasters and Wulfen wherever you need them, and get the Wolf Lord, WGBL with Relic and Wolf Priest to support them.with the Inceptors. The extra range of the Plasma Incinerator you can get all 10 Helblasters within Rapid Fire Range. With the threat even if he stays back on turn 2 you can get a good amount of Dakka om them and use turn 1 to get rid of the screen. The bomb has an average of 32 plasma shots, that are relatively safe to overcharge. Even with T8 and rotating the Ion Shields it does an average of 14 wounds. Then you can gamble on a charge from the Wulfen, Wolf Priest and WGBL. If the Wulfen get in, with the rerolls they do about 12 wounds in average. More than enough to blow most Knight in a single turn. The trouble with the plasma + Wulfen bomb you have listed there is the cost. That is around 1000 points of units (and 3 CPs) that cannot come on until T2 at the earliest and require slightly above average rolling (at least on the charge) to kill ~500 points of Knight. If you fail to kill the Knight in one go, there is a good chance it will take a big chunk out of those units before it finally goes down. I hate to say it but a far cheaper way to deal with Knights is just to take a Shadowsword as an allied SHAD. This costs around 450 points and can start firing on a Knight on T1. It gets +1 to hit and rerolls to wound vs Titanic targets and can usually bring a Knight down in 2 shots with its Volcano Cannon alone. Stick on some lascannon sponsons (which also benefit from the +1 to hit) and you can make that faster or add a metric ton of Heavy Bolters for horde clearance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5116178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Redbeard Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I have been thinking of getting aome Questoris allies but mainly because I like them and I believe a nordic House with similar values to the Vlka Fenryka. If you wanted to stay Mono, I'd have a list to suggest, excpet IIRC you don't take Primaris but here it is anyways. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [65 PL, 1045pts] ++ + HQ + Wolf Priest [6 PL, 97pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Packs Wolf Guard Battle Leader [6 PL, 85pts]: Frost sword, Jump Packs, Krakenbone Sword, Storm shield Wolf Lord [6 PL, 108pts]: Chainsword, Jump Packs, Storm shield + Troops + Grey Hunters [8 PL, 113pts]: 4x Chainsword . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword . 2x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol . Grey Hunter w/Plasma Pistol: Plasma pistol . Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Chainsword, Combi-plasma Grey Hunters [8 PL, 113pts]: 4x Chainsword . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword . 2x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol . Grey Hunter w/Plasma Pistol: Plasma pistol . Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Chainsword, Combi-plasma Grey Hunters [8 PL, 113pts]: 4x Chainsword . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword . 2x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol . Grey Hunter w/Plasma Pistol: Plasma pistol . Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Chainsword, Combi-plasma + Elites + Wulfen [13 PL, 239pts] . 4x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 4x Storm Shield, 4x Thunder Hammer . 4x Wulfen . Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws + Fast Attack + Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 177pts]: 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant, Plasma Exterminator ++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [50 PL, 955pts] ++ + HQ + Bjorn the Fell-handed [14 PL, 239pts]: 1. Legendary Fighter, Assault cannon, Heavy flamer, Warlord Wolf Guard Battle Leader [6 PL, 78pts]: Chainsword, Jump Packs, Storm shield + Heavy Support + Long Fangs [7 PL, 154pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword Long Fangs [7 PL, 154pts] . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang: Plasma cannon . Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 330pts]: Plasma Incinerator . 9x Hellblaster . Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol ++ Total: [115 PL, 2000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Use Cunning of the Wolf to get thr Helblasters and Wulfen wherever you need them, and get the Wolf Lord, WGBL with Relic and Wolf Priest to support them.with the Inceptors. The extra range of the Plasma Incinerator you can get all 10 Helblasters within Rapid Fire Range. With the threat even if he stays back on turn 2 you can get a good amount of Dakka om them and use turn 1 to get rid of the screen. The bomb has an average of 32 plasma shots, that are relatively safe to overcharge. Even with T8 and rotating the Ion Shields it does an average of 14 wounds. Then you can gamble on a charge from the Wulfen, Wolf Priest and WGBL. If the Wulfen get in, with the rerolls they do about 12 wounds in average. More than enough to blow most Knight in a single turn. Then the Inceptors can move and harass, Wulfen have always good mobility and Hellblasters good range meaning the bomb can be still a threat on next turns. It is a gamble but I think a fun and fluffy (the hunters trap with the Grey Hunters taking the bursen and bravely waiting for a brutal assault to take the heavy weapons and trap the enemy in a pincer) to play against a list with such a high value target. And even if you don't outright kill it, it is very possible that you will cripple it, maybe even reduce it to it's lowest profile. Actually I do have most of the models you recommended, the only thing I don't have is an extra 4 plasma cannon Long Fangs, and have yet to finish my remaining 4 Hellblasters to fill up the plasma bomb you are recommending. Very versatile list. My only concern is, as usual, not enough dakka to clear hordes that will undoubtly clog up the Knights, whose job I normally leave to my twin assault cannon razorbacks. Also I'm not confident in taking my Wulfen out this edition, they've mostly underperformed. Well, not underperform, they do smash up everything they touch but I almost always end up overextending them with nobody else being able to follow their speed and punch. Terminators are SLOOOOOOOWWW, Blood Claws end up a liability if they in a big group. Anyway, will bear this in mind R Beard, but at the moment, I'm more interested in synergizing with a Knight list of one big one and 2 small ones. This list might work well against marine equivalent armies with Knights. Unless they also put in a horde of bloody IG. God I hate hordes. Although at least IG horde also exist to shoot, rather than to be disposed off like damned cultists. I am also adverse to hordes amd imdeed the list suffers from completely clearing them off, but thr idea was to blast enough of the screen for the bomb to work, but that'd depend on how your oponent plays. As you say this list might be better suited against MEQ with a Knight. As for allies in specific... well maybe it is a thing of adapt to your oponent something I fell suits the Vlka Fenryka. He runs a shooty Knight? Run a Gallant with the Ion Bulwark relic and rotate Ion Shields, I'd recommend Hawkshroud as although it advances less than Terryn when you get there you will be far more effective. He runs a melee Knight? Adapt and spam 3 Ven Dreads with shields as the volume of attacks will be hard to counter the 3++ invuln and no degradation. He runs hybrid? You have access to the same so just see the rest of the army and what is hurting you more (for example against cultist hordes Endless Fury would be a great way to do it). The cunning of Russ will be thr best option, to change your Knight and catch the opponent offguard Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5116364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Redbeard Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Wolf Priest [6 PL, 97pts]: Bolt pistol, Jump Packs Wolf Guard Battle Leader [6 PL, 85pts]: Frost sword, Jump Packs, Krakenbone Sword, Storm shield Wolf Lord [6 PL, 108pts]: Chainsword, Jump Packs, Storm shield Wulfen [13 PL, 239pts] Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 177pts]: 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant, Plasma Exterminator Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 330pts]: Plasma Incinerator Use Cunning of the Wolf to get thr Helblasters and Wulfen wherever you need them, and get the Wolf Lord, WGBL with Relic and Wolf Priest to support them.with the Inceptors. The extra range of the Plasma Incinerator you can get all 10 Helblasters within Rapid Fire Range. With the threat even if he stays back on turn 2 you can get a good amount of Dakka om them and use turn 1 to get rid of the screen. The bomb has an average of 32 plasma shots, that are relatively safe to overcharge. Even with T8 and rotating the Ion Shields it does an average of 14 wounds. Then you can gamble on a charge from the Wulfen, Wolf Priest and WGBL. If the Wulfen get in, with the rerolls they do about 12 wounds in average. More than enough to blow most Knight in a single turn. The trouble with the plasma + Wulfen bomb you have listed there is the cost. That is around 1000 points of units (and 3 CPs) that cannot come on until T2 at the earliest and require slightly above average rolling (at least on the charge) to kill ~500 points of Knight. If you fail to kill the Knight in one go, there is a good chance it will take a big chunk out of those units before it finally goes down. I hate to say it but a far cheaper way to deal with Knights is just to take a Shadowsword as an allied SHAD. This costs around 450 points and can start firing on a Knight on T1. It gets +1 to hit and rerolls to wound vs Titanic targets and can usually bring a Knight down in 2 shots with its Volcano Cannon alone. Stick on some lascannon sponsons (which also benefit from the +1 to hit) and you can make that faster or add a metric ton of Heavy Bolters for horde clearance. it is indeed expensive. I never said it was very competitive, just a way to maybe deal and gamble with a Mono list. It is not the most efficient way, but to me is fun to play that list. A similar list got me to destroy all the heavy support of GSC and their flank while losing a single Wulfen. So I enjoy this playstyle, even while being supoptimal, and was only presented as an example of a mono alternative. The Shadowsword is a good alernative indeed, but personaly it doesn't feel fluffy to just have an IG tank in the middle of a SW army. Of course everyone plays how the game how they enjoy it. The 15 wound it causes in average are brutal though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5116387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 Sigh, there are times when I wish super heavies and gargantuam creatures (by 7th edition standards) didn't exist in the game. because elite armies by nature, do not have those. Well I guess now we do in the form of the Astreus super tank thingie, or the Mastodon, but again, I'm not a Forgeworld fan despite the Mastodon appealing to me due to its transport/tank nature. For that matter, the few times i dealt with resin, I hated it. Someone once told me that resin is a "hard level" mode of the hobby. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5116643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 I have to admit I find it concerning that certain armies lack effective counters to certain opponents. When 40K devolves into a game of rock-paper-scissors at army selection, it is a bad sign. Hopefully our codex will help a bit but the current edition does leave elite armies (if Marines still qualify for that label) struggling against LoWs. Do we soup-up or will our Codex bring a solution? Blood Angels have a few counters in the shape of Captain Smash and the Librarian Dreads who are capable of putting serious hurt on a Knight. Bjorn is good but lacks a delivery system which makes him vulnerable to kiting. Armies have to answer 2 questions. How to kill the enemy and how to stop the enemy killing you. Knight and horde armies both answer the second question by overloading the opponent's ability to answer the first and Marnes struggle because their numbers are often not sufficient to answer the first question while their durability is not high enough to answer the second. The basic problem of elite all-rounders being overpriced has been around for several editions but GW seem to keep thinking that everyone plays balanced armies but in practice, their system rewards players who overload on a single type of threat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348548-best-knightknightsgiant-robots-for-the-job/#findComment-5116703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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