Best Knight/Knights/giant robots for the job

[TiguriusX]

40k has always been a more complex rock/paper/scissors in my mind

 

From a macro view you generally get hordes...armor...assault as types of things you need to deal with (yeah I know we can break it down more but this is just simple discussion example)

 

In competition it becomes what tools do I need to counter what "may" be out there

 

You can go generalist and have some stuff to deal with everything or you can specialize and commit to doing something well

 

By overloading on something you are hoping target saturation beats the opponent's investment in counters

 

Sure you have an anti-armor unit but I have a ton of armor units (razorback spam or knight spam whatever).  You can't kill them all before i eventually kill your anti-armor then I have free run of the board

 

 

Maybe consider swapping units to plug a hole in your ability to fight a specific target

 

Rapier laser destroyer or more long fangs with lascannons for ranged anti-armor

Shield dreads or Wulfen for melee anti-armor

 

There are no perfect lists.  Match ups make the battle.  If you are in a tournament a lucky draw and the state of the meta all factor in.  If you get a bad match up you need to use those general skills and win the objectives game another way

[Karhedron]

 

There are no perfect lists.  Match ups make the battle.  If you are in a tournament a lucky draw and the state of the meta all factor in.  If you get a bad match up you need to use those general skills and win the objectives game another way

 

You are absolutely right, it is all about match-ups. My point is that relying on the "meta" to create list balance seems like a bad idea to me. Maybe GW assume people won't bring spam lists to friendly games. 

 

The other problem is that spam lists tend to be stronger than balanced lists because GW overprices generalists and underprices specalists. If you look at tourney winning lists, they usually spam either or a unit or a concept. You rarely get "balanced" lists on the top table and that is a problem that goes beyond the luck of the draw.

 

A spam list of any variety may get unlucky and run into its hard-counter. But it will usually have an edge over both the army that it hard-counters AND generalist lists. The other problem is that a spam list can usually include a range of tools to counter a variety of foes while still playing to their strength. That is the point of spam lists in that they negate half the usual problem of playing (preventing the enemy from killing you) by overloading the enemy's ability to kill a particular type of target.

 

For example, a Knight list will have a strong advantage against any list that has not tooled up with above-average levels of anti-tank weapons. However they are not at an automatic disadvantage facing any particular opponent as a result of this as they can still tool up with both anti-tank and anti-infantry (or even anti-flyer) weapons themselves without compromising their Knightliness.

 

Anyway, I am rambling seriously off-topic here so feel free to drag the discussion back onto how a true son of Russ should deal with these foes. ;)

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

There are no perfect lists.  Match ups make the battle.  If you are in a tournament a lucky draw and the state of the meta all factor in.  If you get a bad match up you need to use those general skills and win the objectives game another way

 

You are absolutely right, it is all about match-ups. My point is that relying on the "meta" to create list balance seems like a bad idea to me. Maybe GW assume people won't bring spam lists to friendly games. 

 

The other problem is that spam lists tend to be stronger than balanced lists because GW overprices generalists and underprices specalists. If you look at tourney winning lists, they usually spam either or a unit or a concept. You rarely get "balanced" lists on the top table and that is a problem that goes beyond the luck of the draw.

 

A spam list of any variety may get unlucky and run into its hard-counter. But it will usually have an edge over both the army that it hard-counters AND generalist lists. The other problem is that a spam list can usually include a range of tools to counter a variety of foes while still playing to their strength. That is the point of spam lists in that they negate half the usual problem of playing (preventing the enemy from killing you) by overloading the enemy's ability to kill a particular type of target.

 

For example, a Knight list will have a strong advantage against any list that has not tooled up with above-average levels of anti-tank weapons. However they are not at an automatic disadvantage facing any particular opponent as a result of this as they can still tool up with both anti-tank and anti-infantry (or even anti-flyer) weapons themselves without compromising their Knightliness.

 

Anyway, I am rambling seriously off-topic here so feel free to drag the discussion back onto how a true son of Russ should deal with these foes.

 

 

No worries Karhedouk. This does relate to the discussion on the what "rock" Space Wolves should use to the Knight's "scissors". The answers are varried, but as already mentioned not just here but other threads, marines will always be on the uphill if we stick to mono lists. With the entry of the Custodes who are truly Tough and Strong even in small numbers, sometimes I don't think we should call ourselves Elite anymore. 

 

Imagine what the poor Grey Knights players/fanbase feel. Once the epitome of the Marines marine, now near the bottom of the list in  terms of, well everything, from unit diversity, to relatively limited strategems. Even I don't fear them too much unless they go 12 Dreadknights on me, which thankfully nobody I know has that many Dreadknights.

 

What really gets under my skin everytime I fight chaos space marines though, is that it looks like they can go THREEWAYS horde (cultists), Elites (Obliterators, terminators, daemon princes) AND LOW Knights at the same time. Whether it is Thousand Sons, Death Guard or generic CSM, the fact they have cheap chaff without needing to ally is just so damn frustrating.

 

Add a Knight, and then, well.... it's like I brought a BB gun and my opponent brought a machine gun, then a tank, then an f 22 raptor, then a TIE Defender, then a Star Destroyer, then a Super Star Destroyer, and to top it all off, a Death Star.

 

Sigh, maybe I should just get Sly Marbo and see if he solves all my problems just by virtue of owning him and showing up screaming AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[TiguriusX]

I fully endorse a sly marbo ally and want to see what insanity you can do with him

 

My friend plays BA and has been complaining about his army for ages.  He is finally going to commit to mixing in some imperial guard units (I know the name changed to astra militarum but I'm old 40k and I can't call them that yet)

[Kasper_Hawser]

I fully endorse a sly marbo ally and want to see what insanity you can do with him

 

My friend plays BA and has been complaining about his army for ages.  He is finally going to commit to mixing in some imperial guard units (I know the name changed to astra militarum but I'm old 40k and I can't call them that yet)

 

Yeah to me, AM is still IG to me, and I only joined the hobby in 2014. or as Corvus Corax calls them THE WALL OF GUNS. Anyway, the sly marbo is just a joke, I'm not even sure what he does anymore. Used to be a big S10 pie plate grenade, but now I imagine it would be a mortal wound bomb of a sort.

 

I notice that much as I gripe at times, I wonder why some Blood Angels players seem almost to whine as much. From my perspective, they've had more assault tools than SW for a long time and speedier to boot. Even after their update in 7th and 8th edition, they still seem to imagine themselves as a low level codex whereas to me they still had speed and durability, something Space Wolves lacked until the Wulfen came. 

[Ishagu]

IF your army is shooting focused get a Valiant.

If your army is assault focused get a Castellan.

If your army is mixed, get a Warden?

[Karhedron]

 

Anyway, the sly marbo is just a joke, I'm not even sure what he does anymore. Used to be a big S10 pie plate grenade, but now I imagine it would be a mortal wound bomb of a sort.

 

Yeah, D3 Mortal wounds, once per game but only a 4+. Upside is you don't need LOS or anything. Once our Codex arrives we should get the Hellfire stratagem which works on a 2+ so should be more reliable.

 

Mortal Wounds are good against Knights as it ignores both their T8 and the Ion Shield. The downside is that with 24 wounds, very few armies can spam enough MWs to put down a Knight, never mind multiples. Magnus can do it and maybe Death Guard but DG need to be close for most of their MW factories to work and even they are not tough enough to withstand a Knight tap-dancing on them. :p

 

The problem is that even Lascannons do not get a great return on Knights. LFs with a WGBL for support will average just over 1 wound per lascannon if your opponent rotates Ion Shields.

 

Melee looks a bit more promising but it is not easy to catch a Knight in CC with wolves as they are so darn fast. Also if you fail to kill them, the return attacks will squash most units apart perhaps from an Axe/Shield Dread.

 

TWC or WG bikers with Hammers and Shields look promising. A pack of 6 should put 9 wounds on a Knight in melee before you start adding character support such as Wolf Priest or WGBL. Storm Shields will ward off the worst of a Knights attacks in return (just watch out for Death Grip if the Knight has a Gauntlet).

 

Knights also make great targets for "Tempests Wrath" as you will be debuffing ~500 points of enemy model. If you cannot kill it quickly, blunt its attacks while you try and wear it down.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

TWC or WG bikers with Hammers and Shields look promising. A pack of 6 should put 9 wounds on a Knight in melee before you start adding character support such as Wolf Priest or WGBL. Storm Shields will ward off the worst of a Knights attacks in return (just watch out for Death Grip if the Knight has a Gauntlet).

 

Knights also make great targets for "Tempests Wrath" as you will be debuffing ~500 points of enemy model. If you cannot kill it quickly, blunt its attacks while you try and wear it down.

 

 

Sadly it's going to be a long project getting just 5 man of WG bikers with TH or TH/SS for me, which I have to do from scratch.

 

I did curse Tempest wrath on the Knight in my last game, but with the Effing Renegade Knight strategem, he was rerolling all his 4+ hits with Battle cannon and Avenger Cannon. Effing lame and OP I tell you...

 

.... anyway, maybe I'll try to pool all of my bike characters and pretend they are a WG Biker bomb and see how it rolls. LOL, rolls.... ok somebody shoot me.

[Karhedron]

Plasma Inceptors are another decent option. A 6-man squad overcharging will do 10-12 wounds on average. This score goes up a bit if you have a JP Wolf Lord dropping in with them to contain overheats.

 

They have several advantages over Hellblasters:

 

1) Their threat range is 18" whereas Hellblasters drop off outside 15".

2) They can enter from Reserves without needing to spend CPs on stratagems

3) They can come in anywhere on the table, not just form board edges which makes them harder to screen against.

[rgr_maddog]

When I started thinking of including a knight, I was thinking the shooty Crusader to overwatch a Space Wolves Advance. Something that would be able to stick around longer than the Longfangs seem able to while maintaining my basic assaulty SW army. After reading more, I thought maybe a cheaper assaulty Gallant, supported by a more shooty SW army. Who's going to shoot my Longfangs when a giant robot is running at them full tilt? Now, I'm sort of leaning back the other way. Shooty Crusader will support my army and draw any big threats toward himself. It will be harder for an opponent to kite the slower threats if I know where there going to be :)

[TiguriusX]

i had this same analysis and settled on the leviathan dreadnought as my shock and awe unit

 

T8 15 or so wounds and a 2+ 4++

 

i run mine with dual storm cannons. 20 S7 D2 shots at bs2 with rerolls possible because chapter keyword. It cant melee anything with this load out but that is why we have shield dreads right? you can replace a cannon with a claw/melta but lose 10 shots and pay more points

 

pricing and performance have it midway between our regular units and a knight. i view my leviathan as a ton of longfangs packing autocannons in a mobile bunker...that is the in game effect it has and totally efficient for the points

[PeteySödes]

i had this same analysis and settled on the leviathan dreadnought as my shock and awe unit

 

T8 15 or so wounds and a 2+ 4++

 

i run mine with dual storm cannons. 20 S7 D2 shots at bs2 with rerolls possible because chapter keyword. It cant melee anything with this load out but that is why we have shield dreads right? you can replace a cannon with a claw/melta but lose 10 shots and pay more points

 

pricing and performance have it midway between our regular units and a knight

I’ve been loving mine, I run with priest on Twolf for the repairs as well as having the attacks to clear moderate tarp it worries.

[Karhedron]

When I started thinking of including a knight, I was thinking the shooty Crusader to overwatch a Space Wolves Advance. Something that would be able to stick around longer than the Longfangs seem able to while maintaining my basic assaulty SW army. After reading more, I thought maybe a cheaper assaulty Gallant, supported by a more shooty SW army. Who's going to shoot my Longfangs when a giant robot is running at them full tilt? Now, I'm sort of leaning back the other way. Shooty Crusader will support my army and draw any big threats toward himself. It will be harder for an opponent to kite the slower threats if I know where there going to be

 

Even a shooty Knight like a Crusader is no slouch in melee. Using its titanic feet it gets the equivalent of 12 battlecannon attacks every round. As long as you steer of dedicated CC specialists (anything with a good invulnerable save or high Strength and AP melee attacks), you should be able to do almost as much damage in close combat as from shooting.

 

In fact you should be aiming to do this. Even a Crusader will struggle to make its points back from shooting alone. You need to leveraging its CC potential as often as possible. Shoot and then charge in, even if only to tie up the enemy. Next turn you can withdraw without any penalties and then rinse and repeat.

 

If you are looking for something in between, the Warden seems to be regarded as the best all-rounder.

[rgr_maddog]

Even a shooty Knight like a Crusader is no slouch in melee. Using its titanic feet it gets the equivalent of 12 battlecannon attacks every round. As long as you steer of dedicated CC specialists (anything with a good invulnerable save or high Strength and AP melee attacks), you should be able to do almost as much damage in close combat as from shooting.

 

In fact you should be aiming to do this. Even a Crusader will struggle to make its points back from shooting alone. You need to leveraging its CC potential as often as possible. Shoot and then charge in, even if only to tie up the enemy. Next turn you can withdraw without any penalties and then rinse and repeat.

 

If you are looking for something in between, the Warden seems to be regarded as the best all-rounder.

Yes, and the assaulty army can follow in, mop up chaff, and/or counter knight counters that get too close; or so I hope. The only problem, I realy want some household traditions over the free knight qualitys and burdens. Is it worth a few Armmigers or will that leave me too short on points for the boys? I don't think there's a real wrong answer at my level, they'll just play different.

[Karhedron]

Yes, and the assaulty army can follow in, mop up chaff, and/or counter knight counters that get too close; or so I hope. The only problem, I realy want some household traditions over the free knight qualitys and burdens. Is it worth a few Armmigers or will that leave me too short on points for the boys? I don't think there's a real wrong answer at my level, they'll just play different.

It is a tough call. I have a Crusader and I plumped for a pair of Armiger Warglaives to support it and run a full Lance. This has several advantages over a lone Knight.

 

1) Full access to Household Trait

2) +3CPs (useful for buying extra the extra Warlord Trait and a Relic for your big Knight)

3) Armiger Warglaives are fast and hard-hitting and compliment Space Wolves quite well.

 

A Crusader with Avenger, Battlecannon and Stormspear pod and 2 Armigers with extra melta guns comes to 849 points. I don't know what size battle you are playing but that should leave a decent chunk of points for Wolves and a few toys.

 

Obviously you can run whatever household you want but a few seem to stand out as particularly good.

 

Raven

Advance and fire with no penlaty. This is a great trait as it gets the Armigers into melta range even faster. The Crusader can move faster to get into stomping range or it can retreat from foes with high melee capability. The Raven stratagem is particularly good for rerolling all the 1s on your Crusader during the shooting phase. I would take Ion Bulwark as your Warlord Trait and then a relic of your choice. The 2+ armour will make your Knight even harder to kill or your could take the Relic Avenger for MOAR DAKKA!

 

Krast

Rerolling hits in melee on the turn you charge, are charged or perform a Herioc Intervention is really tasty on the Warglaives as they hit hard in melee with their Chain Glaives. This will help them cut through opposition even faster. The Krast Walord Trait "First Knight" lets you reroll all 1s to hit (including shooting) so works really well on the Crusader. This is a slightly more aggressive build than Raven but it frees up CPs for Rotate Ion Shields on your Crusdaer.

[Karhedron]

Another option would be a Gallant and 2 Warglaives which cost 718 points. Take the Terryn House trait, Landstrider Warlord Trait and a Relic of choice (Sanctuary is good for a 5++ in melee).

 

The Gallant now has a Turn 1 charge range of 29.5" (assuming you use Advance and use the Full Tilt strat). It hits like a ton of bricks and if there is anything juicy still alive within 1" at the end of the combat phase, you can use the "Death Grip" stratagem to take it out. The Armiger Warglaives also benefit as Landstrider has a 6" bubble effect so providing you roll their charges first, they have a decent chance of reaching melee on T1, even if they do not advance (average charge range 25").

[Yoyo ninja]

If your looking at getting some armigers, helverins are amazing. 60", heavy 4D3, S7, ap-1, flat 3D per knight. A pair will put down most anything in a turn. I'd say they out class most other stuff in the Knights codex. They are real work horses.

 

And taking them with a gallant will give your opponent a hard choice to make turn one.

[Karhedron]

Helverins are effective against some targets to be sure but with S7 and AP-1, they will struggle against heavily armoured foes (like other Knights).

 

Where they excel is dealing with lighter vehicles, flyers (thanks to the Skyreaper strat) and multi-wound models that rely on invulnerable saves (like Necron wraiths).

 

Against conventional armoured targets you are better of running Warglaives where the combination of D3+1 melta shots and 4 S12 attacks will do more work (especially on such a mobile platform).

 

Helverins fill a niche in a pure Knight army but as allies, I don't rate them so highly. An Assault Cannon Razorback will clear chaff more effectively than a Helverin while costing fewer points and benefiting from buff like Wolf Lord and WBGL rerolls. Plasma will deal with multi-wound infantry more effectively thanks to the better AP.

 

A Helverin's firepower and price-tag are similar to an auto-cannon Predator and they don't seem to be particularly common in the meta at the moment.

[Guest Triszin]

we all know the best giant robot is a blizzard dread. It's so stompy, its so adorable!

[Yoyo ninja]

helverines are surprisingly effective. A pair of them will reliably take down a Leman Russ battle tank a turn. And they often get overlooked as they the big Knights charging down the board at you are a lot more thretaning. On top of that they can move and shoot at full effectiveness, so are great back field objective holders.

[Karhedron]

helverines are surprisingly effective. A pair of them will reliably take down a Leman Russ battle tank a turn.

Not sure about your maths there. Each gets 8 shots on average so 16 in total. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 5s and saving on 4s with a flat 3 damage only gives an average of 6 wounds on a Russ from the pair.

 

By contrast, a pair of Warglaives will do 9 damage (assuming they are within melta range) and can easily finish it off in CC with their Chain Glaives.

 

Of course range is an important point. The Helverins can reach out and touch targets from 60" away whereas the warglaives need to get up close and personal. Still, on a platform that is faster and tougher than most Marine tanks, getting close to the enemy in a hurry is not usually too much of a problem.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

helverines are surprisingly effective. A pair of them will reliably take down a Leman Russ battle tank a turn.

Not sure about your maths there. Each gets 8 shots on average so 16 in total. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 5s and saving on 4s with a flat 3 damage only gives an average of 6 wounds on a Russ from the pair.

 

By contrast, a pair of Warglaives will do 9 damage (assuming they are within melta range) and can easily finish it off in CC with their Chain Glaives.

 

Of course range is an important point. The Helverins can reach out and touch targets from 60" away whereas the warglaives need to get up close and personal. Still, on a platform that is faster and tougher than most Marine tanks, getting close to the enemy in a hurry is not usually too much of a problem.

 

 

Sigh, going to lament a little Shakespear here....

 

..... To Knight or not to Knight. that is the question.

Whether tis nobler to go mono list...

... the Avenger cannons and Rapid fire battle cannons of outrageous fortune

... to take up bolters against a tide of cultists.

... and by playing such cheese DESTROY THEM....

.... to die and sleep, No MORE...

 

Normally I hate Shakespeare (not meant to insult Englishmen and English literature), but suddenly that offten misquoted Hamlet Soliquoy comes to mind.

[TiguriusX]

I have decided to test some knights as well

 

I am definitely an iron wolf at heart and keep increasing in size from my initial shield dread to his leviathan friend and now a detachment with dual helverins and a full blown gallant

 

Gonna need more space for the models...

[Radu]

I agree with some of the comments above. I have been a mono player for decades as well and I abhor the idea that to play competitively I will need to add some sort of detachment of something else to compensate. I am hoping that our new codex will not force me down that path, but I will wait until it is here to see what we get/don't get.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I agree with some of the comments above. I have been a mono player for decades as well and I abhor the idea that to play competitively I will need to add some sort of detachment of something else to compensate. I am hoping that our new codex will not force me down that path, but I will wait until it is here to see what we get/don't get.

 

It's great you have the patience to wait. For me, I'm afraid my mono-stance is getting worn down, so I decided as a mental exercise and stimulating discussion, to start this thread based on strategy and tactics. Whether I or anyone else go for it is another matter.