Best Knight/Knights/giant robots for the job

[TiguriusX]

My theme for SW is survival and durability.  I have storm shields all over.

 

Bjorn + 2 shield dreads form the core of all my lists

 

Before I decided to do the knight experiment I was leaning double leviathan to add to my list (tough as nails target saturation is the theme here).

 

I love the T8 4++ and it is awesome survival but not invulnerable

 

In my field testing of 1 leviathan it can tank an entire turn worth of fire but does usually die.  Once it goes I lose a significant chunk of my ranged firepower (I rely too heavily on storm cannons).

 

Basically a single leviathan is too easy for other armies to debuff (I hate eldar more than all others...) and focus fire

 

So my initial response was going to be 2 leviathans!  I have the 2nd model here waiting to be assembled but then I was watching the BAO last week and it made me think about alternatives.

 

Double Leviathans are awesome but they cost close to (1) require at least 700 points (2) also require a tax to wield them and (3) no stratagems or combos they can pull off (this might change with codex drop...a stratagem to shoot twice will jump this option back up near the top for me)

 

Anyways...from the BAO I noticed one of the winning knight additions was a knight and two helverins.  The price is similar to double leviathan and you get similar benefits.  The helverin guns are an alternative to storm cannons and trade number of shots and AP for ridiculous range and higher damage.  The last tournament I went to I had hammer & anvil 2/3 games and it hurt me to be honest.  I have also suffered greatly when facing dark eldar (curse their flying death machines).  Helverins in the rear are strong against that type of threat and they even have stratagems to put down flyers.

 

I researched the hell out of knight options and decided to pair the shooty helverins with a knight gallant.  Due to the formation the knight is a character and can have warlord traits and relics.  The gallant is the best knight killer hands down.  It serves as the carnifex distraction unit but you can give it a 3++ invulnerable for 1CP a turn which deters shooting.  If someone wants to melee it then I am happy b/c my shield dreads don't have to move very far.  The gallant should draw more fire than my leviathan with a higher chance of surviving.  It also has great synergy with my bjorn + shield dread formation and they should chop through anything they can find.

 

For my personal SW style the addition of this particular knight detachment makes sense.  I get the entire formation for 760 points.  I get extra CP and stratagems to use.

 

In an ITC environment I am not giving up a guaranteed kill a turn either.  I have nothing but shield dreads...bjorn...gallant with 3++ and helverins hiding in the far back with T7 and 5++

 

My 3rd and final detachment is assassins (2xculexus and 2xvindicare).  I am on an eldar hunting mission!  I need to post my last batrep still but I was made when I had a warlock dead to rights turn 1 (I seized) and missed all my shots including a CP reroll.  They made up for it by pasting him turn 2 then an archon on turn 3 but the warlock jinxed my leviathan which died turn 1 and I was on the backfoot because of it.

 

Anyways...that is my crazy train of thought analysis but I felt like sharing

 

*Edit*

 

Here are 2 army lists to compare/contrast

 

Wolves/Leviathans 5 CP

++ Vanguard Detachment (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) ++

+ Elites +

Culexus Assassin

Culexus Assassin

Vindicare Assassin

Vindicare Assassin

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) ++

+ HQ +

Bjorn the Fell-handed: Heavy flamer, Twin lascannon

+ Elites +

Venerable Dreadnought
. Fenrisian Great Axe and Blizzard Shield: Blizzard shield, Fenrisian great axe

Venerable Dreadnought
. Fenrisian Great Axe and Blizzard Shield: Blizzard shield, Fenrisian great axe

+ Heavy Support +

Long Fangs
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Storm shield

Long Fangs
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Storm shield

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought: Grav-flux bombard, Grav-flux bombard, 2x Heavy flamer, 3x Hunter-killer missile

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought: 2x Heavy flamer, 3x Hunter-killer missile, Storm cannon array, Storm cannon array

++ Total: [100 PL, 1999pts] ++

Wolves/Knights 8CP

 

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

[Reference] Warlord Traits (All)

 

Heirlooms of the Household: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom (-1CP)

 

Household Choice: House Taranis, Questor Mechanicus

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Armiger Helverins

. Armiger Helverin: Character, Heavy stubber

 

Armiger Helverins

. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

 

Knight Gallant: Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm missile pod, Meltagun, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark

. Character: Warlord

 

++ Vanguard Detachment (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) ++

 

+ Elites +

 

Culexus Assassin

 

Culexus Assassin

 

Vindicare Assassin

 

Vindicare Assassin

 

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Bjorn the Fell-handed: Assault cannon, Heavy flamer

 

+ Elites +

 

Venerable Dreadnought

. Fenrisian Great Axe and Blizzard Shield: Blizzard shield, Fenrisian great axe

 

Venerable Dreadnought

. Fenrisian Great Axe and Blizzard Shield: Blizzard shield, Fenrisian great axe

 

Wolf Guard: Jump Packs

. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard: Combi-flamer, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard: Combi-flamer, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard: Combi-flamer, Storm shield

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Combi-flamer, Wolf claw

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Long Fangs

. Long Fang: Lascannon

. Long Fang: Lascannon

. Long Fang: Lascannon

. Long Fang: Lascannon

. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword

. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Storm shield

 

++ Total: [107 PL, 2000pts] ++

[rgr_maddog]

I think what house, traits, and relics you choose is going to be just as important as wich knight. I'm going the other way, with a shooty Crusader and have some ideas, but not sure what I'd choose with the assaulty Galant. What are your thoughts in that reguard?

[TiguriusX]

I think what house, traits, and relics you choose is going to be just as important as wich knight. I'm going the other way, with a shooty Crusader and have some ideas, but not sure what I'd choose with the assaulty Galant. What are your thoughts in that reguard?

 

My knight codex is still in the mail so I don't know all the combos yet (I don't 100% rely on internet codex stuff).

 

My initial plan is Taranis so I can stand back up if I die Celestine/Guilliman style.  Having a single knight which will be a prime target I expect him to die and need that force multiplier to stand up and go on a rampage again.  Spend 1CP and he can fight at his top bracket as well

 

As for relics the paragon gauntlet is a necessity to kill other knights (hitting on 2's and D8 kills regular knights in only 3 hits).  Paragon also makes death grip easier to pull off.  I'll probably spend CP to grab additional relics too but I don't know the specific rules yet.

 

*Remember my army theme is durability.  I know there are other combos that fit all kinds of different needs.  A popular gallant build is to get a 1st turn charge off (landstrider for extra movement and House Terryn for extra dice on charge.  If you do a full tilt you can advance and still charge.  huuuuuuge threat range).  I don't build around that though.  Bjorn and shield dreads are perfectly fine getting there on turn 2 with my knight or counter charging if something came at me.

[Karhedron]

I think what house, traits, and relics you choose is going to be just as important as wich knight. I'm going the other way, with a shooty Crusader and have some ideas, but not sure what I'd choose with the assaulty Galant. What are your thoughts in that reguard?

A Gallant needs to be in combat to do damage so if that is my only big Knight, I would focus on the Traits that help to get it there. House Terryn and Landstrider would probably be my preffered option as it gives you an average threat range of 29.5" if you use "Full Tilt". That means a T1 charge is practically guaranteed. For Relics you then have a choice of going offensive or defensive.

 

For offense, the Paragon Gauntlet is great if you know you are facing other Titanic opponents but is overkill in an army without them. Against a lot of armies, I would probably take the 2+ save relic as this help to prevent the Knight being taken down by massed small-arms fire or hordes attacks. Gallants will be operating at close range so underestimate the enemy's ability to nibble one death with lesser attacks. Knights are tough but they are not invulnerable to infantry by any means.

 

For a Crusader, I would probably lean towards Raven or Krast. Raven has the stratagem that lets you reroll all 1s in a shooting phase (number of shots, hits, wounds and damage) that is great on a very shooty platform like a Crusader or Castellan. Season with Endless Fury and Ion Bulwark for extra shots and durability. With Krast, you have the option to take "First Knight". Athough you only reroll 1s to hit, it is a permanent bonus so you don't rely on CPs to keep you hitting your target. You can also take the Relic "Headsman's Mark" which allows all your weapons to deal extra damage against targets with 10+ wounds and even more vs Titanic targets. This is another good contender for a Knight-killer.

[TiguriusX]

I think what house, traits, and relics you choose is going to be just as important as wich knight. I'm going the other way, with a shooty Crusader and have some ideas, but not sure what I'd choose with the assaulty Galant. What are your thoughts in that reguard?

 

So I have my codex and models and finally decided what works for me personally

 

Couple of things I learned reading the actual codex

-Relics are limited to 1 per knight.  There is a stratagem to get EXTRA relics but you can't double up on a single knight.  This changes my original plan to stack multiple relics on my single gallant

-Some of the best stratagems and potential combos are limited to specific factions/house choices and can't be combined

 

First I had to decide what my personal needs are:

-distraction carnifex;

-melee powerhouse to kill other knights; and

-synergy with my assault army moving forward (shield dreads and bjorn)

 

 

It came down to 3 finalists for me

Mechanicus (unique strat to fight at highest profile) 

I-Taranis (darkest hour was very tempting but it only works on a 4+ so I decided no)

 

Imperialis (unique strat to fight again if killed with no explosion if you roll a 4+)

II-Terryn (great for melee b/c the tradition gives an extra dice taking the highest on the charge and a 3CP strat to fight a 2nd time that would make a gallant a nightmare) 

III-Cadmus (tradition gives reroll 1's to wound v targets with T<=12 in the fight phase and a 3CP strat to shoot at a deepstriker within 12")

 

My need for a distraction carnifex eliminated many options for me.  To get a 3++ from shooting I need to take the warlord trait Ion Bulwark (gives 4++) then use a 1CP strat.  I am also taking the relic that gives me a 2+ armor save.  This serves to reduce paper cuts and give me a pseudo melee type invulnerable save (not many melee weapons have high S and AP to threaten me and erase the save).

 

Because of that I can't take any other cool warlord traits to combo with (like landstrider with terryn) and I don't care about house specific relics

 

In the end I decided to go with House Cadmus.  It was a close call with Terryn though

 

The ultimate factor for me was synergy with the rest of my list and reliability rather than random chance

 

Although the intercepting strat will cost 3 CP it will serve as a deterrent whether I use it or not and change game play.  I know it drastically impacts my choices when I play opponents that can do it.  It will also benefit my helverins and not just the gallant

 

To take advantage of the strat I also needed to modify my gallant with an expensive ranged weapon (storm spear S8 AP2 D6)

Potential to delete a Smash captain when he arrives shooting at BS3

Alternatively my rear objective helverins are now protected from deep strike specialists.  4D3 S7 AP1 D-1D3 should neuter units coming after them.  And this is the primary reason I decided to go with Cadmus...list synergy improves more units.  It gives my minimal rear guard forces some protection while the rest of my elite assault force is moving forward.

 

As a bonus the reroll of 1's to wound will make my gallant stomps extremely deadly at clearing hordes and basic troops (one of the things knights do not do well).

 

 

So my personal knight detachment

House Cadmus with Warlord trait of Ion Bulwark and Relic armor of the sainted ion 

Gallant with storm spear carapace weapon

T8 with 2+/4++ and I can spend a CP in shooting to get 3++ (distraction carnifex achieved)

2xHelverins to sit in the rear (60" range) and shoot transports and flyers (1CP for sky reaper protocols rerolling v flyers)

 

That goes with my Space Wolves force of Bjorn and shield dreads (armor target saturation theory)

 

This is my modern take on the Iron Wolves love of armor greatly relying on durability and melee prowess

 

I top that off with a culexus and 2 vindicares

 

And away we go!

 

 

 

Hope that helps with your original question and if you have more ask away while I still have knights on the brain.