750pts tournament

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Hi brothers i need some help.

 

I’m going to tournament. First in my life:).

 

750pts, max two detachments, No double datasheet exept troops, No LoW, No FW, No units that cost more than 250 pts, And last one model in a squadron. Oh And we play 48x48”

 

 

As I’ve seen the list there are 4 chaos, 4 tyranids, 3 imperial guard, 2 harlequins, 3 dark angels one tau And one eldar.

 

I think that with So much guard chaos And tyranids there would be lots of cheap infantry.

 

So my idea for list is:

 

HQ 1 captain with jump pack TH And SS with armour indomitus. Warlord, Iron resolve

HQ 2 lieutent with jump pack, combi plasma And chainsword with teeth of Tera

 

Troops 1 5xini with ML

Troops 2 10x ini with meltagun And combi plasma

Troops 3 10x ini with meltagun And combi plasma

 

Dedicated support razorback with TLAC.

 

Direct 750 points.

 

What you guys think? Any changes?? Any ideas?

[Schlitzaf]

Hmm

Here is what I’d do

Captain 89 Power Fist/MasterBolter (Helm/Rites) or you can do StormShield/Teeth

Champion 75 or no MasterBolter and TeethJumpCastallen for 78

Total 164

 

2x Intercessors w/PowSword 188

2x Tide Crusader Squad Squads 392 (dbl Flam/Sword)

Total 580

 

Elites

Cenos 6

 

Total 750

 

Intercessors hold backfield or run Perimeter duty. Tide Crusaders run center and take midfield objectives. Also your army is 43 models and 60 wounds. I know this is an entirely different list than what you posted. And well honestly is basically my standard list.

 

But the list will be an anchor itself well have the bodies to win the day. Your goal will be to outlast the enemy. And sense your anchors can also fight and board is small you can deploy them to support and keep them close enough to engage while Cenos either take a lot of unjustifiably large amount of shooting to murder or give you ability to claim midfield while Crusaders push backfield. Your biggest weakness will be that your force lacks range anti tank. But in Melee weight of attacks and your characters will be the method of success.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

So would you post directly What tide crusader would look like?

 

The bad thing is i don’t have intercessors models.

In that case What would you do?

Tide crusaders with chainsword &bp? Or bolters?

And as i can see No Anti tank there.

[Medjugorje]

Against Dark Eldar you get destroyed in Round 1.

 

I often play tournaments with 850 points...

 

Black Templars: Patrol Detachment - 748 Punkte
***************  2 HQ ***************  
Captain on Bike
+ Thunder hammer, Storm shield  -> 36 Pkt.  - - - > 136 Punkte

1 Lieutenant, 1 x Combi-melta, 1 x Power sword, 1 x Jump pack  - - - > 101 Punkte

***************  3 Standard ***************  
Crusader Squad
5 Initiates, 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol, Plasma gun, Grav-cannon
+ Sword Brother, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Combi-plasma  -> 15 Pkt.  - - - > 121 Punkte

Crusader Squad
5 Initiates, 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol, Plasma gun, Grav-cannon
+ Sword Brother, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Combi-plasma  -> 15 Pkt.  - - - > 121 Punkte

Crusader Squad
5 Initiates, 2 x Boltgun + Bolt pistol, Plasma gun, Grav-cannon
+ Sword Brother, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Combi-plasma  -> 15 Pkt.  - - - > 121 Punkte

***************  2 Transporter ***************  
Rhino, Storm bolter  - - - > 74 Punkte

Rhino, Storm bolter  - - - > 74 Punkte


Gesamtpunkte der Armee : 748
Powerlevel der Armee : 35

This is what i would use (Take the 2+ 3++ Armor to the Castelan and the Marshal on bike gets Warlord +1W and FnP and Shield Eternal)

If you dont have first strike its very possible that your whole army still live in round 1 ( you could change the Grav into Lasercanon)

 

 

 

if you want to be on top - remember you will play against this list:

 

Drukhari: Patrol Detachment - 750 Punkte
***************  2 HQ ***************  
Archon, Blast pistol, Huskblade  - - - > 86 Punkte

Archon, Blast pistol, Huskblade  - - - > 86 Punkte

***************  3 Standard ***************  
5 Kabalite Warriors, 1 x Blaster  - - - > 47 Punkte

5 Kabalite Warriors, 1 x Blaster  - - - > 47 Punkte

5 Kabalite Warriors, 1 x Blaster  - - - > 47 Punkte

***************  1 Elite ***************  
Sslyth  - - - > 27 Punkte

***************  2 Unterstützung ***************  
Ravager, 3 x Disintegrator cannon  - - - > 125 Punkte

Ravager, 3 x Disintegrator cannon  - - - > 125 Punkte

***************  2 Transporter ***************  
Raider, Disintegrator cannon  - - - > 80 Punkte

Raider, Disintegrator cannon  - - - > 80 Punkte


Gesamtpunkte der Armee : 750
Powerlevel der Armee : 45
Kommandopunkte der Armee : 3
 

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Made some test games today.

 

Against... orks:).

 

First game was disaster, So No comment. Never played against orks before.

 

But second one was better. Also lose but was CLose.

 

I was second, orks weny First. 48X48 gives him huge advantage. Move advance And charge is huge.

 

His list:

Ghazkull

Painboy

Banner

Weirdboy

30boyz

6nobs with klawz

 

My finał list:

Captain jump pack th SS armour indomitus

Lieutenant with jump pack combi plasma teeth of Tera.

Razorback TLAC

5xini with ML

10xini with double flamer + 1 neo

10xini with double flamer + 2 neo.

 

Mission eternal war with superior objective And another one 4/1vp rest 2vp, scored at the end of the game.

Maelstorm tactical escalation? + slay the Warlord, linebraker, First blood.

So mix of missions in one mission:)

 

Coclusion.

 

 

Ghazkull is beast. I failed to kill him. He killed my Warlord.

Jump pack gives So many options.

I don’t know If i want take bike or jump pack captain.

Lieutenant with ToT is Nice but squishy without inv save.

Relic is amazing but he died quite easily:/.

Big squads are Nice due to area denial, flamers are Also quite Nice i can advan And still autohit with them.

Small squad is Ok. I took them with ML for flakk missile stratagem, So They will stay.

Razorback hmmm hard decision. 12 s6 ap-1 shoots are good but it is weakest point And Maby you will have idea to change it for something else?

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

Oh. And no de in tournament.

[arigatous]

Lieutenant with J/P and ToT is not meant for 750 points game. It is a 78 points support/counterObSec/HQtax model for larger games.

 

If you're into flamers anyway, take Champion instead and you will see that Ghazkull is not that bad :)

[Medjugorje]

113,4  attacks from normal Orks are needed to kill my warlord. Again, try to kill my warlord with ghazkhull... and with the 5 CP you can make the Captain to a High Marshal/Chapter Master !!!!

[Schlitzaf]

So my tide squads are 7-7 Neo/Init w/DoubleFlam And DoublePowSword about 196 points. For the first couple of points. Drop the Razorback. You need atleast two of them to be worthwhile.

 

Second keep your Marshall as cheap as possible it should run you around 90-95 points. Fist and/or TwinClaws, then Helm if fist Ranged Weapon of Choice. That should save you points. You have about 134 points.

 

Here the list based on what you said I believe most competitive

HQ 161

Marshall w/Fist or TwinClaw, Helm

Emperor’s Champion

 

Elite

Cenobyte Servitors

 

Troops

2x FauxDevi (HeavyBolter, Plasm or Grav, Stormbolter): 180. I’d also do full Chainsword with the two guys left over if you intend to have these units support Crusaders in midfield.

2x Tide Crusaders.

 

The Tide Crusaders you have give or take 201 points per squad. The squad minimum size should be 13-15 Man. Anything smaller is gonna be too small. Here is what I’d personally do. Sense you cannot have Intercessors

 

HQ Set1

A

-Marshal 89, PowerFist/MasterBolter, Helm

-Emperor’s Champion; 75

B

-Marshall 86, PowFist/TwinClaw, Helm

-JumpCastallen 78, Teeth, Pistol

C

-Marshall 89, Teeth/Shield

-Emperor’s Champion 75

 

HQ Set2

-Marshall 86; PowFist or TwinClaw, Helm

-Castallen 60; Pistol, Teeth

 

Elite

Cenos 6

 

Troop Set

TideSet1

A

-2x Crusader Squad; 14 Man, 7Init/7 Neo,

Double Flamer, DoubleAx, All Chain

B

-2x Crusader Squad; 14 Man, 8Init/6Neo, DoubleFlamer, DoubleSword, All Chain

 

TideSet2

2x Crusader Squad; 14 Man, 7 Neos/7 Init

Double Flamer, -Double Sword, all Chain

 

BackfieldSet1:

A

-2x Crusader; 5 Man, HeavyBolter, GravGun, StormBolter, either Bolter or ChainDepending

 

Backfield Set2

-2x Crusader; 5 Man, HeavyBolter, Plasma, CombiPlasma, either Bolter or Chain depending

 

Those are the lists variations I’d run anyways sense you lack Intercessors. And based on the environment. I’d choose Set1;

A for HQ’s

B for TideCrusaders

Marshall And Champion tag team scary guys like Thraka. Crusaders maintain formation in center with Cenos giving fearless. Use your backfield anchors to tenderize the enemy. And you have 8 command points.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

So If im reading it Right.

One sword on normal”heavy” initiate

One flamer from „special” initiate

And combi flamer And sword on sword brother?

[Schlitzaf]

Yes

[Medjugorje]

sorry but flamers are the worst weapon.

 

3,5 hits per shot  its like 2 cursaders with bolter (with 1 reroll).

Take plasmaguns  -  the best weapon.

Take a calculator. Most range (in comparison to melta, flamer and grav)

most damage able and  in avergage by 12 to 24"  by 9" to 12" most average agains most targets still by 6" to 9"

high strength and high AP.

[Schlitzaf]

Medj You never take Plasma on Tide Crusaders. Sense you cannot shoot and advance them. Like the thing is that Plasma is good in midfield support units not close combat units. I said this before proper tool for proper job.

 

Why take a weapon you’ll never use (Rapid Fire Weaponry)? Plasma weaponry should never be taken on units that want to get in Melee asap.

[Medjugorje]

on tournament i would never play tide marines into CC - so I would never run with them.  And if I would do that - it would be a melter and not a flamer

[Aegir_Einarsson]

the thing is, that i wouldn't probably take flamers nor tide, but rules and points are on my side. 750 pts are low enough to spam some bodies on the ground. Also no LoW, no double datasheets, and no more than 1 unit in squadron. And a lot of participants are IG, Chaos, Nids. So i expect a lot of infantry, so flamers are in my opinion better. I also need shave some points, and flamers are cheapest option aviable. And one more 2d6 autohit have some nice psyhologiacal efect. noone want charge you:). And also what Schlitzaf said. I can advance and still shoot:).

 

BTW. Can i shoot pistols after advance?

 

Tomorrow and on thursday I'll test this list more.

[Medjugorje]

He GUYS... CALCULATE PLEASE.

 

Flamer are useless in this edition. We are talking about a tournament.

[Schlitzaf]

Medj I prefer having the additionally Power Sword + Model that are paid for by taking Flamers over Meltaguns (at 16 points difference at Crusader Squad has one more wound and you pay for the Power Sword on the initaite).

 

Additionally advancing and shooting, but is espacially good on the reception of the charge. Sense units like Boys, Wyches/GEQ, all lose about 3 models on the charge which is an important number. Sense in most cases killing one or two more models makes battle shock to likely fail

[Aegir_Einarsson]

So fast summary:

 

2 wins two loses.

 

Wins against Tau, IG, loses to Tau, Necrons.

 

I was 12 from 18 participants, in my fits tournament i think that it’s good result.

 

Highlights: EC&TH captain slamming riptide to death. Shield drones And 3++ on riptide is So annoying. And the face ezpression of my oponent when i said: i’ll Burn 3CP to attack with my captain Again :):).

 

The same combo with IG killed hovering valkyrie i one round.

 

And my favourite one. Hellfire shells And flakk missile. Both hits, 6 mortal wounds, killed flying tau fusion commander.

 

Biggest mistake on my side:

With tau, i’ve charged small unit of tau infantry with my captain And was obliterated with 4 fusions from commander , when i killed them And stayed in the open.

I should go for objective And play more safetly.

 

With necrons: we were run out of time. This was relic mission. I’ve has relic with my Warlord And I let my oponent make us another turn. And he charged me with warriors And then score the relic. If i won’t be gentle player i would win.

 

Unit performance:

MSU Wit ML And double plasma is a good unit Especially with flakk missile. Only one minus was 48” ML And 24” when i couldn’t shoot everything all the time. Any ideas to fix that guys? Or how to use it?

TH&SS captain with jump pack is beast with huge monolity.

EC. When he fight with charscter/monster is totalny awesome. If captain is nerby is even better. But he is slow when footslogging. When facin army with huge mobility like tau it is hard to get him into combat.

Greyfax -> well. She was Ok. The power to nulify overwatch is Great against tau And necrons And it was very usefull. Only minus is that i couldn’t take Also dominate. Next Romę i would use Eisenhorn instead.

Big footslogging squads They were Ok. Double flamer was Ok choice. I was facing infantry heavy lista in generał So They were usefull. But all auta all for objective camping intercessors would be better IMO +- the same wound count but less models So easier to hide/cover.

 

Biggest weaknes of the list: 3++ units like necron wrights, lycheguards riptides.

 

Top 3 was eldar mix, tyranids with 4 monster creatures with T8 And a lot of wounds (carnifex, tyranids, exocrine, flyrant), And GSC with 15 Purestrain, primus, And hive guard And flyrant support... .

4th was a guy with 30 termagounts that makes 90+ shoots doubled by stratagem.... brutal!

Another one nasty list: IG -Pask, tank commander, one leman Rusa screaned with huge bloob of guardsman...

 

All in all I AM happy with the result. I was only one who played imperium... one from 18 players And that shows how weak SM are at the moment.

And i have huge satisfaction because:

When i came to FLGS I’ve Heard some diacussion And laughing about „that guy” who plays BT. „Who is he, it would be easy win 20-0, who will fight against him Hahahaha” And then I’ be played against one of them And won. Huuuge sarisfaction:).

 

 

My final list was:

 

1 hq th SS captain with jump pack with armour indomitus

2 hq EC

 

Troops

1 MSU with ML, combi plasma, plasmagun

2 7 initiates 4 nephytes power axe combi flamer flamer heavy bolter

3 7 initiates 5 nephytes combi flamer flamer power axe

 

Aux. 1 hq greyfax

 

Total 748 pts.

 

Cheers guys And Thanks for advice.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

Biggest mistake on my side:

With tau, i’ve charged small unit of tau infantry with my captain And was obliterated with 4 fusions from commander , when i killed them And stayed in the open.

I should go for objective And play more safetly.

 

Sounds pretty damn Templar though!

[Schlitzaf]

Looking at your list, the main change I would had made is evening out your Tide Squads and thrown in a unit of Cenobytes. And sense you didn’t have another power weapon had dropped the axes and changed captain load out for 6th Neophyte in the 11 Man. Really through the tide Squad were kinda small. To work. You really need to get into the 13-15 Man for tide squads to shine. And regards to tide v Intercessors.

 

There are three kinds of line squads

1) Anchor, these are 5 Man FauxDevi for us. They sit in backfield holding well the backfield objectives for us.

2) ‘Fire Support’ 10 Man Tactical, 6-4 Crusaders, MSU Intercessors, DoublePlas (in Razors) Tacticals. The tide squads you were running were the most akin to this unit. Here is where Intercessors > Crusaders (unless mounted in Razors or Rhinos). These units are meant to bulk and provide support for line units or hammer/star style units. Intercessors as you said are basically strictly better as they are 100ish to a Crusaders 140-150.

3) ‘Line’ or Frontline Units (similar but not exactly the same as chaff). These are where Tide Crusaders come into their own. At large body count, 13+ (14-16 being what I found best size), they can reasonably take objectives from other objsec units because body count. And during games of dynamic objectives (end of player turn scoring). Crusaders excel. The goal of Line Units is charge and absorption of enemy fire. They differ from chaff in that they are threats beyond being chaff. Intercessors are not best at this role being slower and more static (or better put you want to shoot their guns where Crusaders are okay advancing each turn into they are in charge range).

 

Basically proper tool for proper job. Tide Crusaders need to be well a tide to function properly. The tide purposes is primary reception of charge then launching a brutal counterassault with a mass of attacks. Even losing 4-5 models, you should have 24 attacks at STR 4 AP 0, 2 STR 4 AP 0 hitting on 4, 1 STR 6 AP -1, 2d6 autohit Flamers (or 2 Melta Shots) And 3 Power Weapons. Or killing 5.10 Marines. Basically killing a MSU Double Plas each turn. That is after losing 4 models. Otherwise your killing 6.4. Or about 7-8 post Battleshock. (So functionally 1 Marine Squad per turn at full strength and half a marine squad of your reduced by a third.

 

Intercessors are best at fire support because small squad footprint and durablility. Means they don’t need much deployment room or more specifically they can easily get within 9” Marshall range. Then while Crusaders advance Intercessors move 6” and provide covering fire. After the Crusaders impact and reduce, Intercessors then provide a follow up charge. (Once again a 6-4 or MSU Squad in Razors fill a similar Role. And similarly a 10 man Intercessor Squad could also be used as a line squad similar to Tide Crusaders but base size issues come into play. Crusaders have a 1ish inch base, Intercessors have 1.5”-2ish inch base. Meaning that you can get double the number of Crusaders in combat compared to Intercessors).

 

All together your issue with units like wraiths isn’t surprising. It’s my primary struggle with my main list. And my suggestion with missile launcher; take a Heavy Bolter, shorter range so less desire to hang back and snipe shoot, and hellfire amazing. And place objective closing to end of your deployment because 12” away + 24” gives you a wide range of threat projection. All said and done, through good job friend!

 

You did Sigismund proud!

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Nice point out about puting objective at the end of my deplyment zone. Nice catch!

 

I was short on points, and I want some anti smite protect (most of my opponents were psyhic heavy). Captain was a beast and my only hard hitter against big units like riptides, or flyrants. 

 

So as I understand what you mean when you say 13-15 models, there were no such option:). Also I would also take cenobytes, but i don't own models:/

 

Thanks for response:). And i steal "objective thing":)

[arigatous]

 

Flamer are useless in this edition. We are talking about a tournament.

 

Plasma was awesome in 2017 tournaments, but not in the current meta which is heavily dominated by horde armies. Mid-2018 flamers make perfect sense.

[Medjugorje]

Plasma is far better then flamers. You always have the one or other list with armored units. And against mass- armies you should take Intercessor Squads. With longer Range and -1AP - much better input and same output as crusaders in close combat they are the best way to walk with.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Yes i know but problem was i didn’t have models:/

[arigatous]

against mass- armies you should take Intercessor Squads

 

Which become even better for that purpose if one uses different tag :)

 

Talking BT as a core detachment doesn't make any sense if one is not talking Crus - there are plenty of other [better] tag options to go with alternative troops.

 

Crus in turn mean either MSU fully packed squads or blobs - something which can't be gained using other tags.

 

Talking blobs, double flamers are definitely the option in the current environment - 7 S4 autohit attacks for 18 points are very beneficial for blobs.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Right If i want go intercessors i would do ravenguard instead.