Dominus, really worth it?

[Dark_Master]

I’m currently building a IK army.

 

Was thinking of adding a Dominus, but can’t get over my initial dislike of them.

 

Are they a bit of a case of too many eggs in one basket? In an army of eggs in few baskets?

 

I love the Armiger though, they add a bit of flexibility to the army.

 

Thoughts?

 

DM

[Stray]

Personally - and note you'll get many people say otherwise, and they might be right - I don't think they're worth it, no.

 

They're pretty much the most expensive thing we can field, and though the points cost isn't terrible, it's a huge chunk of your army. That in itself wouldn't be a huge issue if it weren't for the fact that I'd be pretty convinced that they'll turn out to be a massive bullet magnet. And one that I feel is actually more fragile than other Knights. They have a couple more wounds, sure (a tiny amount really) however the 3CP cost for Rotate means you simply can't afford to increase their save often.

 

Now, you can use relics to mitigate this, but should you have to? I'm not a fan of being forced to use even more CP to plug a hole. And frankly you'll be doing this anyway due to their other issue - the static weapon choices. You will want to upgrade these due to the points you've already invested, and it must be said that without the upgrades some of these weapons aren't hugely impressive. This makes it an even more costly loss.

 

I'm prepared to be convinced, and I certainly don't think they're a poor choice in an army. I do believe though they are not a truly competitive one however.

[Marshal Reinhard]

No unit is worth it enough to field if you don't actually like the model.

[Stray]

Just been listening to Signals from the Frontline.

 

Apparently there have been several lists finishing 1st & 2nd in ITC Tournaments in the last week featuring Castellans.

 

(Aux Detachment Castellan, Blood Angels Captains, Guard Battery)

 

I suspect it's due to it being new(ish) and lists will adjust to combat that, but I'm not the most well placed person to comment. It might just be that my initial reply is simply wrong. (wouldn't be the first time :P)

[Frostglaive]

I think in smaller games (anything under 2,000pts) I would say no, they aren't worth it. Too much of a points sink in my opinion. Crusaders can already put out enough firepower for cheaper at that game level, and Gallants and Warglaives would probably be a better option compared to a Valiant anyway if you're going to close the distance like that.

 

Larger games, on the other hand, I believe the Dominus knights are absolutely worth it. Not as big a points sink (since you have more points to play with obviously) and they can do some serious damage to the enemy without having to put all your eggs in one basket.

 

That's just my thoughts. I've only run a Castellan once (and it was a proxy...) in a 3k game. This is just my observations from other batreps and discussions on here.

[chapter master 454]

I think I will be in contrast to Stray here and I feel they are worth it.

 

Granted again I will preface this with my experience is 3 games and in all 3 my Dominus has only got down once technically, he did get back up with taranis. My experience is also heavily skewed due to some strong results by my knights and one instance of some high rolling dirtiness (one shotting a spartan assault tank with JUST the volcano lance).

I also will only speak for the Castellan as I do not have a Valiant (yet). So do note that.

 

The Castellan is a very powerful unit. Outright I think it has been fairly effective each game however I will state that it is the anti-tank/monster master beating out even the valiant despite having the harpoon. The Lance is outright devastating to large targets as even a low rolled number of shots can hurt a lot of units badly, we are talking 3D3 damage per shot that connects and that hurts with a minimum of 3 all the way to a massive 9, averaging to 6 per shot. It is certainly the show stopper on the castellan as any time it acquires a target with that mighty weapon, it better have good invulnerables. The weak sauce however of the Castellan can be pointed to easily in the Plasma Decimator however that is saying it is weak when it is a plasma cannon firing at 2D6 shots a turn, it is a respectable heavy infantry killer however it does just feel right when you take Cawl's Wrath on it. It is a weak point that it needs a relic for this weapon to be good but to be fair, each lance gets one free character so why not the Castellan.

Lets talk Traits, as the relics are generally no brainers on this variant. In terms of cost tactically for weapons, it isn't much of an investment as most other knights don't need the relics or traits as badly as the Dominus do and they respond very well to them. Giving your Dominus Ion Bulwark to have a 4++ all game is massive and actually makes the Stratagem to rotate for 3 actually worth it generally now as you can get a 3++.

 

The other weapons on the Castellan are fairly decent. While many would bemoan the lack of choice for the twin meltas, they are extremely effective as to be honest, the biggest threat to the dominus are hard to kill units with short ranges. So having 4 melta shots really helps push back those harder targets and can be quite nice to have as defence.

Shieldbreakers are good. No more needs to be said, they are amazing.

The Siegebreakers I feel are somewhat odd. They are the Dominus' go to for...anti-infantry. Odd to think but they just don't cut mustard against armour (then again this could be a "weak by comparison issue" but when you see that you have 4D3 shots of autocannon, it is fairly decent at knocking infantry squads down, especially if supporting the plasma decimator doing the same.

 

I feel they are worth it and will do work however. To be honest I agree with reinhard: if you don't like the model then don't play it. Play what you like, not like knights need dominus knights to be good.

[Stray]

All good points, and I fully agree that the Volcano Lance is simply great.

 

I think if you are to field one, I'd heavily consider doing so under House Taranis. You have a far better protected investment that way, and can even bring it back from the dead - multiple times a game if need be.

 

If something is going to be a bullet magnet, best make it a truly irritating one :P

[Focslain]

All good points, and I fully agree that the Volcano Lance is simply great.

 

I think if you are to field one, I'd heavily consider doing so under House Taranis. You have a far better protected investment that way, and can even bring it back from the dead - multiple times a game if need be.

 

If something is going to be a bullet magnet, best make it a truly irritating one

Don't forget about Machine Spirit Resurgence, 1CP for full fire effect. So 3CP to rez and adrenaline shoot the bugger.

[jeffersonian000]

You only need one if you want to field one. If you don’t, don’t.

 

SJ

[Charlo]

Ask me again once the Forge World options come out :D !

 

However for now, both have a role and play it well - though they feel like one big weapon and s support one (Volcano Lance and Conflagration Cannon obviously better).

 

One is a firebase with a Frankly insane gun, the other is a suicide machine that makes a nuisance of himself.

 

I see people giving the Harpoon a bad name too, but the trick is to NEVER shoot at something with an invulnerable save. Just go around one-shotting Leman Russ, Dreadnought and other things with 11-13 wounds or less with Impunity.

[Stray]

Ask me again once the Forge World options come out !

 

However for now, both have a role and play it well - though they feel like one big weapon and s support one (Volcano Lance and Conflagration Cannon obviously better).

 

One is a firebase with a Frankly insane gun, the other is a suicide machine that makes a nuisance of himself.

 

I see people giving the Harpoon a bad name too, but the trick is to NEVER shoot at something with an invulnerable save. Just go around one-shotting Leman Russ, Dreadnought and other things with 11-13 wounds or less with Impunity.

 

The Renegade version of the Valiant might actually work out better given your point.

 

Place it alongside a pet Sorcerer (who it can screen for), and Death Hex anything that does have an invuln save. Your list of harpoon targets just increased exponentially. Problem solved.

[Charlo]

 

 

Ask me again once the Forge World options come out !

 

However for now, both have a role and play it well - though they feel like one big weapon and s support one (Volcano Lance and Conflagration Cannon obviously better).

 

One is a firebase with a Frankly insane gun, the other is a suicide machine that makes a nuisance of himself.

 

I see people giving the Harpoon a bad name too, but the trick is to NEVER shoot at something with an invulnerable save. Just go around one-shotting Leman Russ, Dreadnought and other things with 11-13 wounds or less with Impunity.

The Renegade version of the Valiant might actually work out better given your point.

 

Place it alongside a pet Sorcerer (who it can screen for), and Death Hex anything that does have an invuln save. Your list of harpoon targets just increased exponentially. Problem solved.

No different to a Librarian and Nullzone!

[Stray]

 

 

Ask me again once the Forge World options come out !

 

However for now, both have a role and play it well - though they feel like one big weapon and s support one (Volcano Lance and Conflagration Cannon obviously better).

 

One is a firebase with a Frankly insane gun, the other is a suicide machine that makes a nuisance of himself.

 

I see people giving the Harpoon a bad name too, but the trick is to NEVER shoot at something with an invulnerable save. Just go around one-shotting Leman Russ, Dreadnought and other things with 11-13 wounds or less with Impunity.

The Renegade version of the Valiant might actually work out better given your point.

 

Place it alongside a pet Sorcerer (who it can screen for), and Death Hex anything that does have an invuln save. Your list of harpoon targets just increased exponentially. Problem solved.

No different to a Librarian and Nullzone!

 

 

Meh. I dunno, 6" inches isn't that impressive. That's likely why Loyalist ladies tend to be nuns and Chaos Sorcerers get all the Daemonettes. Librarians should stick to sorting books :P

[CaptainMarsh]

A Knight Raven Castellan using the strategem can be extremely frightening. The Plasma Decimator is mediocre normally, but the relic makes it highly effective. Love it. The Valiant is very specialized and requires more to work, but when it works, it can roll through armies easily.

[Tiger9gamer]

Damn... this thread got my hopes up. But no, another knight thread... .__.

 

 

 

 

look buddy, after having all our mechanicus armies be largelly focused on robots and dunecrawlers, we are a bit happy that we can take something new! granted their still giant robots with big guns, but they are new giant robots with big guns!

[Stray]

 

Damn... this thread got my hopes up. But no, another knight thread... .__.

 

 

 

 

look buddy, after having all our mechanicus armies be largelly focused on robots and dunecrawlers, we are a bit happy that we can take something new! granted their still giant robots with big guns, but they are new giant robots with big guns!

 

 

Next year expect the Ludicrous Class Knight Chassis.

 

Adds a third plasma reactor, armpit and knee cannon, and roller skates made out of Baneblades!

[Tiger9gamer]

 

 

Damn... this thread got my hopes up. But no, another knight thread... .__.

 

 

 

 

look buddy, after having all our mechanicus armies be largelly focused on robots and dunecrawlers, we are a bit happy that we can take something new! granted their still giant robots with big guns, but they are new giant robots with big guns!

 

 

Next year expect the Ludicrous Class Knight Chassis.

 

Adds a third plasma reactor, armpit and knee cannon, and roller skates made out of Baneblades!

 

no no no, we need the Crabical knight class. giant crab power claws, four legs, but can only move sideways.

[Dark_Master]

Next year expect the Ludicrous Class Knight Chassis.

 

Adds a third plasma reactor, armpit and knee cannon, and roller skates made out of Baneblades!

Shhhh! Don’t give them ideas!

 

As I’m playing House Orhlacc (using Taranis or Hawkshroud rules until FW bring their own out) I think I’m going to avoid a Dominus Class. Going to stick with the Lancer

 

Thanks

 

DM

[brother_b]

I think it was a bad idea to pigeonhole the relics to Imperialis/Mechanicus.

 

That being said, I'll probably buy the valiant even though I've been considering questor mechanicus houses for my knights. Maybe not now.

 

Either way, I'm thinking one of these would be a wonderful centerpiece to my admech/knights. It's a ways off, but I've almost bought the valiant like 5 times already. A look at the pile of plastic I've got usually quickly stops that desire.

[CaptainMarsh]

I wish the Relics for the Dominus class Knights weren't attached to Imperialis or Mechanicus, agreed. There are several Houses which fit my playstyle in Imperialis but if I want Cawl's Wrath, I gotta play Mechanicus.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Faction/Allegiance-locked weapons are dumb.

 

They make the Castellan box art in a paint scheme that cannot take what I and a lot of people would consider a must take relic for the Castellan. It makes the most mediocre knight main weapon decent. On a knight that's so expensive you can ill afford any of its guns to have poor performance in the first place. On the flipside, the traitors pyre, which is pretty much is universally praised is locked to Imperialis houses only, while it's model kit has some decidedly more Mechanicus styled bits than it's sibling.

 

The move was very unlikely made from a game balancing perspective either, as Imperialis bonuses are mostly revolving around charging so no real broken combo with having a not so mediocre second gun on your shooty knight. Every knight house also gets their own special relic (again a decision I don't agree with, thunder of voltoris and fury of mars among others would see more use if not locked to these specific houses, but I digres) already so that's can't really be the reason either. In fact it seems they realized they couldn't lock the relics of their new super knights to just one specific house, so they ... locked them to just half of them instead?

 

I mean I get that its thematic in the case of Cawl's Wrath, that the guy who they already attributed previous new plasma weapons has his name stuck to an upgrade of another plasma weapon in the same vein. As is there some form of sense to affiliate it with Mechanicus as well, he's Mechanicus. But it's not like everything he's touched is locked to Mechanicus, nor do we have any real justification that all Imperalis houses have access to just superior conflagration cannons. Other than "we had to give them their unique club weapon too since we decided to just exclude them from the superior decimator club" 

 

/mini rant over

[Charlo]

I like that they force a decision in what army you play (unless you're bringing two houses etc)

 

Competition is good for army building and means that there is no real one true best build.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I like that they force a decision in what army you play (unless you're bringing two houses etc)

 

Competition is good for army building and means that there is no real one true best build.

 

Really? The one true build for a Castellan is a Mechanicum house. The one true build for a Valiant is Imperialis thanks to this arbitrary split.

 

Granted neither model is an auto-include. But if you're building lists around this respective model, you will almost invariably end up with these two choices?

[Tiger9gamer]

 

I like that they force a decision in what army you play (unless you're bringing two houses etc)

 

Competition is good for army building and means that there is no real one true best build.

 

Really? The one true build for a Castellan is a Mechanicum house. The one true build for a Valiant is Imperialis thanks to this arbitrary split.

 

Granted neither model is an auto-include. But if you're building lists around this respective model, you will almost invariably end up with these two choices?

 

 

 

honestly the cawl's wrath is what the gun should have been, a powerful cannon only a knight can wield. or, double down and give him a twin lined avenger if you can imagine that.  twin linked rapid fire battle cannon or thermal cannon, or something. but a regular plasma cannon? yawn. 

[Charlo]

You can call it a true build but it's one specific relic for that chassis while there are other relics available too.

 

They needed to give Mechanicus and Imperialis some kind of split, it's good for the health of the game.