Dominus, really worth it?

[Marshal Reinhard]

You can call it a true build but it's one specific relic for that chassis while there are other relics available too.

 

The other options over Cawl's Wrath are: Sanctuary, Armour of anointed Ion, Mark of the Omnissiah, Helm Dominatus. Which I would I argue all pale in comparison.

 

They needed to give Mechanicus and Imperialis some kind of split, it's good for the health of the game.

 

 

How is limiting options healthy for the game? You're of course entitled to this viewpoint, but I'd like you to expand upon it just a little.

 

EDIT: undersold the alternate available relics a little. If we're not deadset on going Mechanicum for cawl's wrath anymore we also have the option of taking Helm of the nameless warrior. Doesn't make too much difference, its a relic for close combat, which isn't really much of a consideration for a Castellan

 

EDIT 2: I guess I might see how you're reasoning. Please correct me If I'm wrong, but if you have a Questor Imperalis Castellan (which can't take CW) you are forced to pick between the other possible relics, which forcibly makes your choice divergent from CW pick, which means variety. Which is good. My point is rather that all the other alternatives are pretty bad (and of course we can discuss wether they are or not) that it doesn't leave much of a choice. Taking Mechanicum for CW is the 'superior' option.

[chapter master 454]

The spilt is done because to gives reason to pick one side or the other. By the logic and ideas you present Reinhard, Valiants only true build is to have Traitor's Pyre or be gimped by not being imperial.

 

Yes, I will agree that the plasma Decimator does feel a little lackluster in regards to what it is and how it functions however in my experience of using Cawl's Wrath, it has mainly just been used for the base stat-line and never overcharging it. Does mean I am "wasting" part of Cawl's Wrath of but it is arguable that it is the best part of it (being a perma-charged plasma) but don't sell the weapon short, it really wasn't meant for tank hunting but instead heavy infantry killing, I mean you have a volcano lance for armour so no need to worry about "the plasma decimator not being good anti-tank", it isn't meant to be. For heavy infantry is can do some serious work with 2D6 shots of plasma being quite a large volume of fire to output. It can quite easily put most MEQ units into a fairly dire state quickly.

 

I would even consider those other relics possibly useful. Sanctuary is decent for trying to cover the melee weakness, Armour is the most laughable relic in all of knights next to the mark of the omnissiah however helm dominatus is not bad when you consider it buffing your armigers.

 

Yes, the go to Relic for the castellan and valiant are their respective relics relating to which allegiance you picked but it doesn't outright make them bad. Pretty sure those recent tournament topping lists aren't even using relics on the castellan (nor even household traits) so I wouldn't dismiss just dropping a raw castellan/valiant on someone. After all, we have plenty other relics to chose from for other knights!

[Heliomanes]

I'm with Reinhard. The only version of the Dominus chassis that has shown up in competitive play so far is an aux detachment, House Raven Castelan with Cawl's Wrath and a 4++. I hope the field gets more diverse in the future though, but so far this seems one sided, which could indicate some suboptimal internal balancing in the competitive end of the codex.

Plenty of worthwhile and interesting stuff do to if you play less competitively of course.

Edit: Honestly, I'm not a fan of the "better gun" version of relics on a game design philosophy basis.

If you've played Dark Souls 3, you might know that there's a limited number of ring slots you can fill, and these can add very interesting abilities and bonuses to your character build. Thing is, in this iteration of the series, they made specific rings that boosted magic, miracles, pyromancies etc by a significant margin. So if you made, say, a pyromancy build, you pretty much had to use the relevant rings. You got locked into a specific path.
This is annoying because it removes player agency, and because the game has to be balanced for someone going the minmaxed route. So GW need to balance the Castelan based on the relics that add to its firepower - which can often lead to the base chassis or other relic/trait combos feeling underwhelming.

I'd prefer if the different weapons got balanced from their base statline and were somewhat interchangeable, with traits and relics being able to add creative and weird abilities and combinations that added to gameplay in other ways than pretty much being a +1 weapon. For instance, removing 1 toughness from the knight while adding scouting and movement points to create a Hunter/Venator version of your selected chassis.

[brother_b]

You can call it a true build but it's one specific relic for that chassis while there are other relics available too.

 

They needed to give Mechanicus and Imperialis some kind of split, it's good for the health of the game.

I agree on the other chassis but the big knight shouldn't be stuck to one build (for most efficient with relic). In my opinion of course. Differentiating the houses with small knights I'm all for.

 

Heck they even messed up the painting in the book if we take it that way; imperialis got the plasma gun version and mechanicus got the valiant.

 

For me I'll probably stick with mechanicus and still get the valiant.

[jeffersonian000]

GW could have just make the new class good with out requiring a relic, and then just made relics that gave us interesting choices (ie, all are good). But they didn’t.

 

SJ

[Marshal Reinhard]

The spilt is done because to gives reason to pick one side or the other. By the logic and ideas you present Reinhard, Valiants only true build is to have Traitor's Pyre or be gimped by not being imperial.

 

Yes, I will agree that the plasma Decimator does feel a little lackluster in regards to what it is and how it functions however in my experience of using Cawl's Wrath, it has mainly just been used for the base stat-line and never overcharging it. Does mean I am "wasting" part of Cawl's Wrath of but it is arguable that it is the best part of it (being a perma-charged plasma) but don't sell the weapon short, it really wasn't meant for tank hunting but instead heavy infantry killing, I mean you have a volcano lance for armour so no need to worry about "the plasma decimator not being good anti-tank", it isn't meant to be. For heavy infantry is can do some serious work with 2D6 shots of plasma being quite a large volume of fire to output. It can quite easily put most MEQ units into a fairly dire state quickly.

 

I would even consider those other relics possibly useful. Sanctuary is decent for trying to cover the melee weakness, Armour is the most laughable relic in all of knights next to the mark of the omnissiah however helm dominatus is not bad when you consider it buffing your armigers.

 

Yes, the go to Relic for the castellan and valiant are their respective relics relating to which allegiance you picked but it doesn't outright make them bad. Pretty sure those recent tournament topping lists aren't even using relics on the castellan (nor even household traits) so I wouldn't dismiss just dropping a raw castellan/valiant on someone. After all, we have plenty other relics to chose from for other knights!

 

I feel like you do such an excellent job here of illuminating how much of a difference Cawl's Wrath does for the first half your post, despite I believe, this running counter to the point you're making.

 

I would argue that the reason you don't feel the need to overcharge Cawl's Wrath is because you really don't have to. The base stat line of CW is superior to even the supercharged shot of the standard decimator (better AP no risk of self damage). Why would you risk self-wounding (which on the average, average roll you're going to end up doing) to take out heavy infantry when the standard shot of CW is so effective at it that it doesn't warrant the need? And I do in fact whole heartedly agree with you that the weapon is a heavy infantry killer.

 

Conversely, standard fire of the regular decimator will struggle against heavy infantry that have 2 wounds, because each wounding hit only deals one point of damage. A problem that it admittedly overcomes if you subject it to the risk of self-injury by using supercharged shot. And even when doing so Cawl's Wrath still marginally outperforms it on it low settings, and may choose to be yet more deadly. The point has been made that this is what the standard plasma decimator should have been all along, and I'm inclined to agree. But now it exists in relic form that is only open to half of us.

 

If you feel like you might be better served by giving another knight another relic instead, fair enough, that's a whole other discussion. But if we're debating whether another relic will make more of a difference on the Castellan itself, I just don't see it. You mentioned Sanctuary; if you get charged a lot sure it might save a few wounds. The Mark of Omnissiah might heal a few wounds instead. The Helm Dominatus? If you have a lot of armigers the once per battle ability might make a noticeable difference on their attacks. I personally don't really feel any of these options are particularly enticing.

 

But in my case, since my Castellan is Questor Imperialis, I am forbidden from taking either CW as well as a few other of the discussed relics meaning the choice is pretty much down to either Sanctuary or Helm of the Nameless Warrior, if anything at all. This returns us to the main premise of my argument. I don't even get to consider whether I want Cawl's Wrath or not. I simply don't get to take it. This, in my opinion, is a stupid restriction that shouldn’t be there.

 

Everyone is of course entitled, encouraged even, to prove me wrong with their reasoning and arguments. I would welcome the opportunity to be of less sour mind on this particular topic. 

[Karhedron]

I agree that the Relic weapons for the Dominus feel wrong somehow. The minute a particular option feels like an auto-take, you know there is a balance issue somewhere. The fact that they are auto-take also then pushes you towards the respective faction. If you are taking Imperialis, you can basically ignore the Castellan since you can't take your auto-take option.

 

Simmilarly a Mechanicum force would be hard pushed to justify a Valiant without Traitors pyre (despite how nicely it synergises with Raven). Rerolls to wound turn it from an infantry killer into a legitimate threat to just about any unit you can think of. If you are not taking the Relic weapons, what upgrades would you take on your Dominus? A 2+ save is good but situational and I think Ion Bulwark trumps it defensively. The Krast relic is nice for big game hunting but is limited to one house.

[chapter master 454]

I'm with Reinhard. The only version of the Dominus chassis that has shown up in competitive play so far is an aux detachment, House Raven Castelan with Cawl's Wrath and a 4++. I hope the field gets more diverse in the future though, but so far this seems one sided, which could indicate some suboptimal internal balancing in the competitive end of the codex.

 

 

Not sure how they are doing that. Pretty sure you can't get Warlord Trait, Relic nor house traits with an Aux Detachment. Unless you meant the two things you said there as separate things. Otherwise I may consider asking the tournament officials if they are awake!

[Heliomanes]

You can get the relic and trait via the stratagems. You don't get the House bonus, but you get to use the appropriate stratagems. That's why you go for Raven, because of the reroll stratagem.

[Marshal Reinhard]

A cheeky way of fielding my Castellan to be sure. Put him in an aux detach by himself, say he's raven, spend CP to give him relic and trait. My house is Terryn otherwise, so the house bonus I'm forgoing is improved charge distance. Which in the case of the Castellan I can certainly live without.

[Heliomanes]

I challenge you all to a duel. What is the best Questor Mechanicus version of the Valiant we can possibly build? True, he seems subpar, put the model just looks fantastic so I really want to find a fun way of fielding the harpoonwielding gatlingflamer nonsense machine.

[chapter master 454]

I must of mixed up some rules in my head then, I thought you couldn't use stratagems unless you had a proper detachment of that faction in your army...

 

Makes me believe more in the idea that stratagems need to be restricted to only from your warlords faction.

 

Well fair enough however it is an abuse of another thing because I wager the guard battery does the same: the use of the "same" stratagem for more relics than they should have. Because I assume the tournament list goes "So I use my knight strata to get 1 relic, 1CP, then I use my Guard Strata to get 1 relic, 1CP and if I want another one in my BA list, 1CP so now I spent 3 CP and have 4 relics". Well, that is for GW to decide and deal with but for now I at least take some solace in that knights are seeing some play...even if it is to support SmashMaster.

 

As for the Best Questor Mechanicus Valiant, really the question comes down to opponent really. Because of how relics work they are a sort of "Side deck" before the game happens so depending on options then you may chose differently.

If you spot a LOT of melee dudes coming at you with some high AP weapons (very likely) then grab sanctuary for the 5++ in combat HOWEVER the caveat to this is that if their highest AP in combat is 3 then take the armour of sainted Ion as you will get the same result as if you took sanctuary (and you aren't going to rotate ion shields for a dominus. 3CP is too much, 2CP I would consider ok) as AP3 will reduce a 2+ to a 5+ which is the same thing and you benefit more from that.

However if you want a supported valiant in your list then the helm dominatus will certainly let you wreck some faces if it has some pet armigers with it. 24" range on the helm isn't as hard to do with the valiant (since its main weapons are 18" or less) and naturally when you get one of these in you would something to deter people getting TOO close to the valiant.

 

Really, "best valiant" is circumstantial but if I was pushed: Sainted Ion for 2+ armour with Ion Bulwark. Gives you a 4++ which is worth 3CP to turn into a 3++ and against spam fire in attempts to chip you down the 2+ makes it trivial not to mention gives you a 5+ in combat against AP3 weapons (which are extremely common). If however you somehow let a dreadnought charge your valiant then its your own fault, that was harpoon city right there and you took the bypass!

[Clingy]

I challenge you all to a duel. What is the best Questor Mechanicus version of the Valiant we can possibly build? True, he seems subpar, put the model just looks fantastic so I really want to find a fun way of fielding the harpoonwielding gatlingflamer nonsense machine.

I like to think of him as a neutron bomb. The tricky bit is protecting the payload. Anything that helps him stay alive or get to the enemy faster is good.

 

My pick will be house Taranis with 4++ and 5++ in melee depending on your opponent. If he’s in a Lance he gets his 6+ fnp and if he dies on the way in and your not ready for him to go boom then you can bring him back with darkest hour on 4+ if you fail that the CP reroll...and if that fails too, well the machine god says it’s not to be

[Karhedron]

I challenge you all to a duel. What is the best Questor Mechanicus version of the Valiant we can possibly build? True, he seems subpar, put the model just looks fantastic so I really want to find a fun way of fielding the harpoonwielding gatlingflamer nonsense machine.

 

Tough call.

 

Raven is good as Advancing while still firing at full effect will really benefit those short ranged weapons. The stratagem allowing you to reroll all 1s is also really good (even with the auto-hitting Conflag cannon) as it will help stop the Harpoon whiffing and maximise your flamer hits. Warlord Trait is pretty situational. Relic is not great as this guy does not hit especially hard in melee.

 

Krast does not benefit the Valiant massively and the Warlord Trait of rerolling 1s to Hit is less important with the Conflag cannon in play although it is still somewhat beneficial. Krast Relic is quite nice against large opponents.

 

Taranis is decent enough although not very exciting. Probably works out to about 5-6 extra wounds over the course of the game. Warlord Trait is nothing special given that most of the Valiant's guns have good AP already.

 

Vulker is quite good at the ranges the Valiant tends to operate at although does not benefit the Conflag cannon. Warlord Trait can be amusing if your opponent is relying on a few big weapons to kill it. Relic is naff.

 

Overall I lean towards Raven for the Valiant as both the House Trait and stratagem work really well for it. This leaves you free to pick the Warlord Trait and Relic that appeal to you most. I think that Ion Bulwark is always a strong contender on any Dominus due to the CPs it saves you on RIS. Relics are a tougher call. Both Sanctuary and 2+ Armour will help provide protection at the close ranges you will find yourself operating at. Sanctuary will help protect against big threats while Sainted Ion is better against death-by-100-cuts threats.

 

So that is my optimum Machanicus Valiant.

House: Raven

Trait: Ion Bulwark

Relic: Sanctuary/AOTSI (choose to taste)

[Karhedron]

So how about an Imperialis Castellan?

 

Hawkshroud seem the best of a comparatively weak bunch IMHO as it will keep you shooting better for longer. The Warlord Trait is nice if your opponent has a nice big juicy target but otherwise I think it is back to Ion Bulwark. For Relics, 2+ armour is probably the goto option as you won't be trying so hard to get so close.

[Charlo]

Some great discussion here guys, really like the Dark Souls comparison and that hits the nail on the head - Cawl's Wrath is too good (or at least the base weapon is too weak!) by being so obviously far ahead in most situation it removes the choice that they were trying to create with relics/ WT combos etc. Relics are limited so you would always take the best?

 

Though my argument to it is "okay, so you're taking Imperialis and a Castellan - then you don't get Cawl's Wrath but you do get these other unique options which add depth to the choice. For example you can give a Hawkshroud Knight +1 to hit against a single enemy threat. Or Mortan can force -1 to hit at over 18", which you couldn't combine with Cawl's Wrath.

[Mushkilla]

 

The Helm Dominatus? If you have a lot of armigers the once per battle ability might make a noticeable difference on their attacks. I personally don't really feel any of these options are particularly enticing.

 

 

The Helm Dominatus, is not a once per battle effect. It's once per battle round! Its really strong.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

 

The Helm Dominatus? If you have a lot of armigers the once per battle ability might make a noticeable difference on their attacks. I personally don't really feel any of these options are particularly enticing.

 

 

The Helm Dominatus, is not a once per battle effect. It's once per battle round! Its really strong.

 

Oh! I stand corrected then. Thanks for the clarification. Still this just enhances my temptation to put it on a preceptor instead.

 

EDIT: That is to say, if I was permitted to even take the damn thing. But I'm not, and I still don't see how this a is good thing.

[Karhedron]

Some great discussion here guys, really like the Dark Souls comparison and that hits the nail on the head - Cawl's Wrath is too good (or at least the base weapon is too weak!) by being so obviously far ahead in most situation it removes the choice that they were trying to create with relics/ WT combos etc. Relics are limited so you would always take the best?

 

I agree with this assessment. I think the Castellan has it worse in that it is easier to build an effective Mechanicum Valiant than an effective Imperialis Castellan. Just my opinion of course. :)

[Karhedron]

 

 

The Helm Dominatus? If you have a lot of armigers the once per battle ability might make a noticeable difference on their attacks. I personally don't really feel any of these options are particularly enticing.

 

The Helm Dominatus, is not a once per battle effect. It's once per battle round! Its really strong.

 

Hmm, a couple of Warglaives escorting a Valiant with the Helm actually sound like quite an effective force. Does the +1 to Hit apply to their melta shots as well as their CC attacks? That is quite an effective Lance right there and I can see it driving a wedge of destruction through less mobile enemies. Raven looks good for boosting mobility.

[Mushkilla]

So how about an Imperialis Castellan?

 

Hawkshroud seem the best of a comparatively weak bunch IMHO as it will keep you shooting better for longer. The Warlord Trait is nice if your opponent has a nice big juicy target but otherwise I think it is back to Ion Bulwark. For Relics, 2+ armour is probably the goto option as you won't be trying so hard to get so close.

 

 

I quite like Mortan, their stratagem is amazing (ignore modifiers to hit when shooting). Their household ability, makes the castellan better in assault, and like all knights the castellan wants to be maximising the use of all its weapons and assault phase (I don't believe hanging back with the castellan is very effective). As for relics, I'd either take the armour of sainted ion, or the helm of the nameless warrior.

 

 

Hmm, a couple of Warglaives escorting a Valiant with the Helm actually sound like quite an effective force. Does the +1 to Hit apply to their melta shots as well as their CC attacks? That is quite an effective Lance right there and I can see it driving a wedge of destruction through less mobile enemies. Raven looks good for boosting mobility.

 

 

Once per battle round at the start of either your shooting phase or fight phase. So you only get the buff in close combat or shooting not both.

[jeffersonian000]

Helm Dominatus says you pick one enemy unit with 24” once per turn, and any Armigers within 6” of the Helm barer have a +1 to all To Hit rolls against that unit. That’s huge. And on a Perceptor with Helverins, those Autocannons are hitting on 2’s rerolling 1’s.

 

SJ