+Chaplain Matthias+ Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Hey I'm thinking of making some melee Chosen but there are too many options to choose from. I'm playing Word Bearers btw. The reason I want melee Chosen (or really chosen at all) is for the cool factor. But I don't want them to suck either. Currently in my list I have a squad of CSM with a heavy bolter, havocs with autocannon (again...cool factor), cultists, and berzerkers with swords and axes with a options for a fist or 2xLC on the champion. For HQ I have a dark apostle, a Terminator Lord, a Terminator Sorcerer, and an Exhausted Champion. That's not my list, it's just the options I have to work with so far since I'm new to CSM. I'm not sure if I need more shooting or melee and I figure a unit of chosen could do either pretty well. How do you guys kit out your ranged chosen? How do you kit them out for melee? EDIT: I just saw that my auto correct changed it to "Exhausted Champion" and I'm not even going to fix it lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 It's not a great idea, but I'd love to toss 10 power fist chosen in a termite with a dark apostle and exhausted champion. Something about that many re-rolling fists is just awesome to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 That's a hard proposition as there are many other units that provide cheaper ways to do Tue same thong, bonus rules to increase effectiveness, and more importantly easier ways to close the distance. If forced to make one I would consider bolters and power axes. The bolters can plink a few wounds and provide some ranged effect, and the power axes mean actual damage when in cc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slan Drakkos Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I'd consider going with combi-flamers/meltas/plasma guns and power swords or power axes. An exalted champion and a dark apostle will also greatly increase the effectiveness of the unit, but don't forget about the possibility of taking a sorcerer lord with a mark of slaanesh and having the chosen be devoted to slaanesh. With an icon of excess and delightful agonies, they can manage to survive longer and hit even harder against loyalists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copycat Copycat Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I built my Chosen in response to the lack of horde control in my army. I think (hope) this is a legal loadout but it confuses the BattleScribe app since the FAQ. I have a champ with 2 LCs, 5 flamers (2 power fist, 2 power sword), and the rest with bolters and chainswords. They are mounted in either a rhino or a land raider. They are probably too expensive for what they do but I couldn’t resist making a cool veteran flamer squad that’s also pretty choppy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 It's not a great idea, but I'd love to toss 10 power fist chosen in a termite with a dark apostle and exhausted champion. Something about that many re-rolling fists is just awesome to me. That would be two units of 5 chosen right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Power swords/axes and combi-bolter is what I'd give them. Maybe a powerfist on the champ.It's probably the most costefficient loadout that you can't do better on another unit for Chosen. However it just turms them into worse GK Strike Squads (no psychic stuff, no deep strike and only power weapons instead of force weapons) so don't expect them to be a force of nature or whatever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Paint them red, and use their models as Zerkers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Paint them red, and use their models as Zerkers. He said he already has Berzerker and now wants some Chosen as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallarn Commander Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Chaplain, It's been awhile since I've used shooty Chosen, but I take a squad of 7 or 8 with four plasmas or 3 meltas and a sword or axe on the champ. Since the FAQ I've sometimes taken a squad of 9 to 10 Chosen. I kit em out with 5 powerfists (!), 1 or 2 power swords, a maul, Mark of Khorne, and an Icon of Wrath. Either variant are always mounted in Rhinos. As people have noted, shooty Chosen are outmatched by Havocs and melee Chosen are outmatched by Zerkers (my melee Chosen often run alongside my Zerkers). But I take Chosen for fun and fluff. Plus I've noticed that if I keep a lord, DP, or sorcerer nearby they become a pretty good unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 If you want pure quantity of attacks, take chainswords and combibolters. If you'd prefer quality for both types of attacks, power sword and (combi)plasma isn't terribly expensive and provides a lot of AP-3, though the Exhausted Champ (that really is hilarious!) is a must to get the most out of the power swords. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 It's not a great idea, but I'd love to toss 10 power fist chosen in a termite with a dark apostle and exhausted champion. Something about that many re-rolling fists is just awesome to me. That would be two units of 5 chosen right? Originally no, but now that you mention it that would be the smarter way of splitting the charge up and gaining an extra attack from the second champ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Chaplain Matthias+ Posted July 2, 2018 Author Share Posted July 2, 2018 I'm very new to 40k so it's hard for me to wrap my head around what I have and what I need. So for melee I have 8 zerks and the champion has options for fist or claws. I also have 10 melee focused cultists. Is there a blind spot in my melee game that could be filled by chosen? For ranged I have that unit of 5 CSM with a heavy bolter. The champ has a plasma pistol and chainsword. I also have the all autocannon havocs. Laying it out like this I actually feel like my biggest gap might be in ranged combat. Do I need some ranged special weapons that fit between bolters and autocannon? Or do I need some power weapons on top of all those chain attacks I have? I guess it depends on who I'm facing. What I REALLY need is more experience haha. I've never played this army yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 There is this phenomenon in the game where given the choice between a high volume of saves that aren't super powerful and a low number of saves with high damage, the former is better. There are lots of invulnerable saves and shenanigans that allow models to ignore wounds, so if they ignore that one power fist hit (that may only cause 1 damage), everything was a waste. In addition, CSM have the Veterans of the Long War stratagem to improve wound rolls by +1, so weaker attacks can be boosted for CP. This further improves the performance of weaker weapons. I haven't played that many games of 8th yet, so I can't really pretend to be an expert on shooting. Obliterators are good, I'd recommend buying (or converting your own version, ideally) some of those. The legion you play also makes a difference. Alpha Legion will give you some of the best rules and stratagem. World Eaters will boost your attacks on the charge. Therefore, your best choice is naturally World Eaters. :P As for chosen, I think combi-bolter and chainaxe on every model is the way to go, though in the big picture I think you'd only situationally need bolter shooting to clear some chaff for your berzerkers to charge the meatier targets behind them. However, those zerks can clear chaff too, in close combat. How/why you want to do so changes depending on the situation on the table. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Yeah unfortunately most of the time it's quantity > quality in 40k. That goes for bodies as well as for most dakka and for melee as well. What can Chosen do better in melee than other CSM infantry? Honestly ... nothing. Berzerker, Possessed and Terminators should all prove to be better. On the shooting side it looks similar. Havocs, Obliterators and Terminators should all prove to be better at shooting than Chosen. So what can they actually do? They can combine some shooting and some melee on the same model. The only other unit that can do something like that are Terminators but they suffer from the usual Terminator problem and their only redeeming point for CSM is that you can give everyone Plasma, Mark of Slaanesh and drop them to let them shoot twice. Hence why I'd go with Combi-Bolter and Chainswords/Power swords for Chosen. It doesn't make them a lot more expensive but lets them shoot chaff well enough while also being a decent threat for any non-dedicated melee unit (enemy Berzerker and Genestealer and stuff will still tear them apart in melee). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Yeah unfortunately most of the time it's quantity > quality in 40k. That goes for bodies as well as for most dakka and for melee as well. What can Chosen do better in melee than other CSM infantry? Honestly ... nothing. Berzerker, Possessed and Terminators should all prove to be better. On the shooting side it looks similar. Havocs, Obliterators and Terminators should all prove to be better at shooting than Chosen. So what can they actually do? They can combine some shooting and some melee on the same model. The only other unit that can do something like that are Terminators but they suffer from the usual Terminator problem and their only redeeming point for CSM is that you can give everyone Plasma, Mark of Slaanesh and drop them to let them shoot twice. Hence why I'd go with Combi-Bolter and Chainswords/Power swords for Chosen. It doesn't make them a lot more expensive but lets them shoot chaff well enough while also being a decent threat for any non-dedicated melee unit (enemy Berzerker and Genestealer and stuff will still tear them apart in melee). Something shooty, something melee, something this, something that...and expertized in nothing. Usually such unit already suffer from overcost in the codex, then further suffer from over-toy when list writing. So, the overall efficiency... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Chaplain Matthias+ Posted July 3, 2018 Author Share Posted July 3, 2018 Sounds like I just don't need Chosen. I think that's my best choice. I'll save the models for when Kill Team comes out later this month :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Here's the thing. Jack of all trades units like Chosen are good as backups. You have Zerks? Good, primary fighty unit. You have Termies or Havocs? Good, primary shooty. Chosen can be geared as a backup for one type of unit, or even both simultaneously if you're willing to spend the points. They can't stack up against your primaries one on one but they're great at cleaning up after them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Blank Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Alternatively, if you're looking for melee units that fit with Wordbearers lore, you might check out Possessed or daemons. Daemonettes and Bloodletters both hit fairly hard on assault and can bring numbers. Possessed are more elite but more durable and can be buffed by both CSM and Daemons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scourged Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 I mean, I just put together a squad with combi bolters and power axes. Mathematically, they match Possessed in melee damage and get to shoot to, for about the same cost, so that's neat. But they are weaker - one wound and no invuln. That's less neat. And with Forward Operatives they can be a major thorn to the enemy like Possessed, and Terminators, and Berzerkers... Hah, basically, bring em cause you like em. Bring em for fluff. Bring em because you're like me and you just spent a night doing a kitbash with Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and heresy Era kits to make awesome Alpha Legion Chosen, and by the Gods you will run them, effective or not! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 After 10,000 years of war you'd be exhausted too! Chosen get a lot of options in one little package. You could go super efficient and math-hammer it all but they're so sandbox that you may aswell get the bitz box out and just go nuts and see what fits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5116815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChazSexington Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 I love the idea of Chosen, but as mentioned, they suffer from the same issues they did in 7th: overcosted and a lack of durability. I've been toying with a few possibilities. As you run Word Bearers, I would suggest 8-9 Chosen with Icon of Excess/MoS, rule of cool power weapons and lightning claws, and a Rhino. Put them with a Chaos Lord and/or Sorcerer for Prescience and re-rolls. Against Imperial enemies, your lightning claw-equipped Chosen will be at 3 attacks, hitting on 2+ and re-rolling ones, generating a new attack on 5+ (so they'll average 4 attacks), and re-rolling failed to wound rolls. The reason I say rule of cool is that they're all fairly similar in output. It's not amazing for its price and opportunity cost, but it will hit non-CC units like a freight train! Put the Berzerkers in a Rhino as well, so you end up with two threats. You might even consider Possessed in a Rhino for a triple threat and ensuring someone makes it into CC. Ensure your opponent is there for casual gaming and you'll have loads of fun:) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5117928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 I also want to add that Chosen run very well with Alpha Legion as infiltrators. You don't need to fork over the points for a Rhino, and you can position them well to act in either an assault or mid-range shooting role (or both) depending on how they're geared. On this point I want to go back to the combibolter: for two points, each model is providing an increase in firepower equivalent to an entire extra Marine. They're just bolters, true, but overwhelming the ability to roll saves is a thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5118168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 Power swords/axes and combi-bolter is what I'd give them. Maybe a powerfist on the champ. It's probably the most costefficient loadout that you can't do better on another unit for Chosen. However it just turms them into worse GK Strike Squads (no psychic stuff, no deep strike and only power weapons instead of force weapons) so don't expect them to be a force of nature or whatever. More attacks though. While I was reading this, I just had the realization that grey knights have only one attack is because they got the potential to do 3 wounds each attack. And if you could spam anything in the gk book it would be strike squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5118205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainFireBob Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Thanks to whoever mentioned Pop Goes The Monkey on Shapeways. Got combibolter and axes I like from a single vendor Anyone try melee chosen in a termite yet? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348610-help-with-melee-chosen/#findComment-5118906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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