Using a Leviathan?

[Brother Captain Ed]

Brothers,

 

In a fit of pique, I ordered a Leviathan (storm cannon/grav-bombard) since I've always wanted one and the DW being able to teleport this beast into the heart of the storm seems pretty hot.

 

However, I have been having the devil's own time building Deathwatch lists.  I never seem to have enough bodies or enough big guns.  I feel like I'm drowning in options.  List building has become an exercise in looking at a constantly swirling picture that is always juuuuuuust out of focus.  Adding a 300-odd point dreadnought has mega-intensified this situation. 

 

Can I ask you guys for some lists featuring a Leviathan that you've gotten some good mileage out of?  I need a place to start.

[Lemondish]

One of the things I learned after several games is that Deathwatch brings a lot of flexible options that, in action, seriously reduce the need for lots of big guns. The combination of SIA, mission tactics, doctrines, and stratagems like tempest shell has made this force much more flexible at targeting vehicles than I originally gave them credit for. I've found that I actually do have enough big guns even though my list always feels it lacks them. You can't forego including them where you can because of those things, but you can seriously break those vanilla astartes list building tendencies vis a vis anti-tank. 

 

Not having enough bodies will always be an issue with DW. The only real solution there is to turn to the two AMs and pick the flavour of chaff you want.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would go double storm cannon for max ranged shots. Against Nidz you can pop a strat to target their synapse creatures (thinking Malenthropes and Broodlords).

[vigitant]

One of the things I learned after several games is that Deathwatch brings a lot of flexible options that, in action, seriously reduce the need for lots of big guns. The combination of SIA, mission tactics, doctrines, and stratagems like tempest shell has made this force much more flexible at targeting vehicles than I originally gave them credit for. I've found that I actually do have enough big guns even though my list always feels it lacks them. You can't forego including them where you can because of those things, but you can seriously break those vanilla astartes list building tendencies vis a vis anti-tank. 

 

Not having enough bodies will always be an issue with DW. The only real solution there is to turn to the two AMs and pick the flavour of chaff you want.

Yeah, I've recently found the same.  Blew up a grey knight transport with some mortal wounds, non-overcharged helblaster KT with +1 wound strat.  It definitely surprised me.

I'm probably going to put in a heavy bolter now for another d3 mortal source.

 

As for the Leviathan, double storm cannons is 100% the way to go.  Complement it with the tried and true kill team options, dont pile on too much wargear.  I run my Deathwatch with an IG battallion, and it hurts to go monocodex now.  I always feel like i dont have enough command points when i cant recharge off of every point i spend and every strat my opponent does.

[Prot]

I am not fortunate enough to own a Leviathan but I agree with the sentiment. Get some games in if you can Ed. The Deathwatch access to a low level ‘vets of the long war’ is really big.

 

I’ve said in other threads the Hellblasters I eventually gave up on with Ultramarines gained new life for me with Deathwatch.

 

The bigger trick making those essential CPs stick around.

 

But yea, the ability to DS the Dread really adds new life to the unit.

[Delta.Skies]

Since we have to use another heavy support what do you guys think would pair up with the leviathan. Already seems like the double storm cannons are essentially the better option. But if you are building for range on the leviathan what would compliment it. If its situational I would say that I'm using 2 Razorbacks with lascannons for transport. And this would be for a pure DW 2k list

[ashc]

A few people are finding good mileage in running the FW Mortis dreadnought - it's a relatively inexpensive platform that can take 2 powerful AT weapons.

 

I'm quite taken with the idea of the twin-CCWs leviathan if deepstriking, that thing could be absolute murder.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m running a quad launcher for my second HS slot along with the Levi. Really nice for picking off guard.

[superwill]

Sorry for the silly questions, don’t have my rules on me. But are we able to use the Doctrine strats on our Leviathans? If so, that plus the ability to DS them makes an already great unit even better in our hands.

[BrotherAetherick]

Sorry for the silly questions, don’t have my rules on me. But are we able to use the Doctrine strats on our Leviathans? If so, that plus the ability to DS them makes an already great unit even better in our hands.

 

You can, the doctrine strats just require a Deathwatch unit. I've had a 2x storm cannon, 3 HK missile leviathan kill a slightly wounded morty with +1 to wound in one volley.

[superwill]

Brutal. Sorry to be “that guy”, but three of them DSing and using WoTA would make a killer detachment. Surprised I haven’t really heard of them featuring in tournaments, seems like a great unit (either individually or in a detachment).

[Lemondish]

Brutal. Sorry to be “that guy”, but three of them DSing and using WoTA would make a killer detachment. Surprised I haven’t really heard of them featuring in tournaments, seems like a great unit (either individually or in a detachment).

 

Like all undercosted and spammed FW units, they'll eventually be used in tournaments (unless there's an efficient counter I'm not seeing) and then eventually be recosted to something more...fair. 

[Brother Captain Ed]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

While I appreciate it, perhaps I need to be more clear: I'm not looking for advice *on* the Leviathan...I'm looking for list building tips/anecdotes/experience for lists that *feature* a (shooty) Leviathan. The Leviathan and two HQs is already 600ish points. Now that's ok. The Leviathan is half a pound of murder-shaped resin and we have good (and necessary) HQs. But it's already a significant chunk of an expensive army. 250-300 point kill teams are a much harder sell. Are smaller teams better or worse? How about the more expensive models like bikes, Aggressors, and Inceptors? Where do allies fit in? A min battalion of two commanders and three troops, or do we bring a few more of the guns of the Emperor's Hammer? Psychic defense? Is a librarian worth it? A culexus? Maybe Greyfax?

I played three rounds in a local event this weekend with a borrowed Leviathan because mine isnt here yet. My list was roughly:
Watch Captain
Termie captain with melta-fist
Intercessors
Hellblasters
A T5 assault blob of Intercessors/aggressors/investors
A large kill team with 3 frags, two shields, a vanguard, and a cheap Termie
Two las-backs
A ven dread with lascannons

I did the large expensive kill team so I could deep strike it in with the Leviathan.

The first round was Blood Angels with a knight. Two poor rounds of shooting by his knight and rapier destroyers saved me. I was able to tear down the knight and overrun the FW batteries. I failed to effectively maximise my stratagems, but was saved by dice and good target priority.

Round 2 was vs Harlequins. I don't know much about harlies or what a "typical" list would be, but this was a bunch of troops and characters with a unit of the not-shining spears with the haywire guns. I was able to snipe out the only vehicle (some kind of skimmer thing) right away, but my lascannons were largely wasted after that. I made better use of my strats here and my opponent was bound and determined to kill himself by throwing models at my stationary assault blob to be gunned down during overwatch. But this kept me pinned in my deployment zone and I had to wait to drop the Leviathan so the not-spears didnt just annihilate it. And, even killing psykers two and three at a time wasn't enough to keep the mortal wounds off my watch master. Finally time was up and I was a victory point shy.

Last was Death Guard. This was not an optimized list (he was deliberately testing lesser used options) but he's an outstanding player and his dice are supernatural (seriously, it doesn't matter how bad his saves get, he WILL save half of them and then Disgustingly Resilient half the damage whether it be 2 or 20). Even with him sloughing off damage left and right, I was able to blunt his advance, but not meaningfully. SIA was phenomenal against his infantry but, again, the psychic phase was a major issue and once he got into my lines, I couldn't dig him out. I had to call it early, but the game was already decided and I was going to be tabled by turn 4.

Now I made lots of mistakes, but I found having nothing for psykers (not even a hood) was a major problem. Also, the model count was so low that anything that could really hurt Primaris marines was devastating. Finally, the Aggressors really shone in game 2, but only because my opponent kept throwing good money after bad. Not having SIA was really felt when I used them any other time. Also T5 isn't enough to protect marines. It's good, but I dont know that it really did anything to keep my marines on the table. Finally, anytime the enemy got to my lines, I suffered. Maybe I need something that can repel boarders.

Anyway, for a first run, it could have been worse. But it damn sure could have been better. I am just having a hard time improving the list because the margin of error on the points is just so low. Everything needs to pull its weight and I'm not getting it in my list building phase. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks guys.

[seriade]

I would drop the terminator captain and use a dw version of a  slamguinius captain to provide some punch as well as a more mobile response force.  As for the expensive kill team while i like the fragstorrms etc i would just drop down to a group with all storm bolters w chainswords and possibly a shield or 2 as the screen for the levi.  The other possability is to swap the ds kill team for some reivers that can ds.

 

As for the las backs I would consider taking a ven contemptor with 2 conversion beamers.  This will cost you some firepower but you will make it up with the ability to clear hordes as well as knock out hard targets. As well as upgrade the ven to a mortis or a contemptor mortis and go quad lascannons if you have the points.

[SnakeChisler]

I've done the 6 Intercessors 4 Helblasters power sword then combat tactic to small 5 man units 3+2 you can keep them as full squads but there a nice balance.

 

Been non plussed with inceptors due to cost more than anything.

 

7 man squads with 2 aggressors work well and I've been taking the ignores cover warlord trait, and the relic that let's you hot swap tactics they have 2 power fists which catch people out and as they can run and shoot your getting cheapish board presence.

 

Stalkers if your taking vets with HB and I've gone off my Captain and switched to a Librarian + watcmaster

 

Any Dread will benifit from Watchmaster backup in this way and the 7 man squads daisy chain if neccessary to get buffs

 

I've run double battalion but your spending 400 on HQ's which is a bit over what is affordable and I normally spend CP's buffing the aggressor squads +1 to wound with SIA on top is pretty efficient.

 

You can put a 10 man vetran squad together 5 stalkers 4 bikes 1 Vanguard vet then combat squad them, spending points on power weapons for the bikes hasn't worked for me they appear to be better off just shooting.

 

Anyways some random thoughts

 

I did team my Deathwatch up with a Dark Angels supreme command detachment Sammael Talon Master + Ezekiel and the combo worked really

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Brutal. Sorry to be “that guy”, but three of them DSing and using WoTA would make a killer detachment. Surprised I haven’t really heard of them featuring in tournaments, seems like a great unit (either individually or in a detachment).

 

You can only take one because it is a relic - sorry to be that guy and pop yer bubble .

[seriade]

relic does not mean one it just means that you need to take another heavy non relic support choice.  For example if i take a relic sicarian i need to take a reiver squad or the like then i can take another sicarian etc.  The thing that makes you only take one or so is that it is 300+ points and grows close to a knight galliant in cost.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You better check and make sure about that .

[seriade]

Relic:

 

If your army is Battle-forged, no Detachment may contain more

RELIC units than it does non-RELIC units of the same battlefield role.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

More than one is overkill .

[Moostick]

It's more of a restriction of HS slots. Most only have 2 or 3 slots, so you basically have to run a Brigade (haha), or a Spearhead to take more than one Relic HS unit per detachment.

 

Possible, but with 3 Leviathans and 3 other HS units and an HQ, that leaves you with around 600-700 points left. Probably won't have enough PL to DS more than 2 Leviathans, and in a 2k game, they can still be picked off rather easily with low target saturation.

[vigitant]

Yeah.  more than one is not necassarily overkill.  3 would be an interesting army.  throw in a jump pack librarian and/or captain.  use beacon to rip a screening unit over.
hardest part would be getting enough CP.  throw all the DW in a spearhead and take double IG battalions.  Thatd do it.

 

A lot of eggs in one basket, but its a tough basket that cant be alpha struck.
The half PL might mess it up, though.  dont have access to my books to check, though.

60 storm cannon shots is gonna :cuss :cuss up, for sure.
Even knights are gonna have problems.  a 3++ knight is gonna get profiled pretty reliably, and could die outright with only mildly unfavorable dice.
They can drop 11 banana bikes/turn on average.

average of 4 deldar boxes dead.
Theyll wipe out a unit of Shining spears even with -1 to hit them.
 

Tough enough to take a castellans entire shooting and still survive(on average, of course).
An ynnari cheese reaper unit firing twice likely wont kill one.

I'd love to see someone run it.  Hell, even if PL means you can only drop 2, try to LOS the other, and Might of heroes him.  T9 sucks to shoot at.

[Finkmilkana]

DS 3 leviathan should be suicide against many armies. Not because they are going to kill them, but because you certainly won’t be able to also drop enough screens. And a shooty leviathan in meele is a useless leviathan.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"Yeah.  more than one is not necassarily overkill.  3 would be an interesting army."

 

Thanks GW for the Rule of 3 - beating down cheesers 24-7. :D

[Brother Crimson]

 

 

Brutal. Sorry to be “that guy”, but three of them DSing and using WoTA would make a killer detachment. Surprised I haven’t really heard of them featuring in tournaments, seems like a great unit (either individually or in a detachment).

Like all undercosted and spammed FW units, they'll eventually be used in tournaments (unless there's an efficient counter I'm not seeing) and then eventually be recosted to something more...fair.

Leviathan is relic so you need a second heavy support for each choice. He is also very expensive and can be locked into combat. Once this happens you rely on having 2-4 attacks only. His weakness is that he can be locked or swarmed by boys/bloodletter/genestealers etc. It need to be protected like tanks.