Close Combat troops

[Medjugorje]

Hi brothers,

 

A lot of us love to take Crusader squads equipped with Chainswords an BP + Swords like

that:

 

No1:
Crusader Squad
7 Initiates, 5 x Chainsword + Bolt pistol, Power sword
+ Sword Brother, 1 x Bolt pistol, 1 x Power sword  -> 4 Pkt.  - - - > 99 Punkte

 

in comparison to that I want to explain why we Primaris are the best option for that (just in math):

 

No2:

5 Intercessor, Bolt rifle, 1 x Auxiliary grenade launcher, Intercessor Sergeant, Power sword  - - - > 95 Punkte.

 

 

In my calculation there are a few enemies we have to face

 

A: 16 Boyz, 15 x Choppa & Slugga
+ Boss Nob, Slugga, Choppa  -> 0 Pkt.  - - - > 96 Punkte

 

B: 24 Chaos Cultists, 23 x Autogun
+ Champion, Autogun  -> 0 Pkt.  - - - > 96 Punkte
 

C: 7 Chaos Space Marines, 4 x Boltgun, 6 x Bolt pistol, Chaosicon
+ Aspiring Champion, Boltgun, Bolt pistol  -> 0 Pkt.  - - - > 96 Punkte

 

D: 3 Chaos Terminators

 

E: 3 Drukari Grotesques

 

 

 

At first we calculate the "normal" Output (just melee without shooting or overwatch before...):

 

A1 (2,77 + 1) 3.77

B1 5,04

C1 1.94

D1 0,61
E1 0,36
 

A2 3.2

B2 4.29

C2 1,72

D2 0,55

E2 0,31

 

Input and Output after enemy attack

 

A1 5.44--->1

B1 1.39--->4.29

C1 1.00--->1.72

D1 2.07--->0.50

E1 3.56--->0.17

 

(by rounding off/up - Primaris are different because of their 2 W)

 

A2 2.72--->2.11

B2 0.69--->4.29

C2 0.50--->1.72

D2 1.04--->0.50

E2 1.76--->0.27

 

If you recognize that Primaris have even su much better output in shooting and overwatch - the Primaris are our choice.

[Schlitzaf]

Just wanted to say this is why I say MSU Melee Crusaders are terrible. Melee Crusaders need to be a tide squad to be viable

[Medjugorje]

but we have to compare this on the points they cost !!

[SydonianDragoon404]

So what you're saying is, Space Marines currently suck for their points cost? Tell me something I don't know.. Sorry to be that way about it but this isn't exactly new information that Space Marines are crap right now. 

[Medjugorje]

i am not finished with this thread... i will tell you that Primaris are very good in melee

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They really are but most players don’t realize it or don’t want to acknowledge it.

[redmapa]

Intercessors are a great troop choice, I would definitely take a couple of squads IF they were the only troop choice but since the Primaris is just beginning to grow Im just waiting to see if other options arrive by the time the Wolf codex drops.

[Schlitzaf]

I said this before but Intercessor being comparable or better than Crusaders and Grey Hunters tell how good they are imho

[Medjugorje]

the problem is - for shooting against big units we can take Crusadersquads because of the better weapons and because of longer range by taking LasCan/RL ... 

but for close combat the Crusaders are the wrong choice.

 

That makes me sick.

[Terrified Templar]

I think most people avoided Primaris out fo either stubbornness, which is understandable, as a forum dedicated to making what we have work I gotta say that the people here are both stubborn and resourceful at doing that so props to them (I am not nearly as involved so I avoid saying 'we', I ain't taking credit), lack of special or heavy weapon, and no reasonable transport options.

 

The crusader squads definitely have their place, min max shooting squads are good but they need transport, but on the other hand they offer better shooting options than their Primaris counterparts. Basically unless we get significant updates crusader squads are an ok shooting option due to min/max and combi weapons giving them an edge in that they can be tailored to engage certain opponents and a somewhat lack luster melee option unless you sink points into them in which case it is a waste. Primaris are better in that their damage output and durability are better but they lose out in that they have average mobility with no way to improve it and they have no special or heavy weapon options. 

[Marshal_Roujakis]

tbh, this is why I abandoned playing the game... haven't played in about a year now, and I've only had about 5 games under my belt for 8th ed. 4 games with the index, when it was fun, 1 game when the Tyranid Codex hit and the power creep was already knee high... now its about chest high so I don't bother playing anymore...

 

I know this is a game where the house (GW) always has to win, and therefore they will make sure that the best options will always be the one that you have to buy instead of the one you already have, but I choose to win, and that means that I don't play their game... so what does that mean for my Templars? I still collect and build them, and while they might not be optimized for gaming, or used on the gaming table, I built, painted and designed them as I see them through the fluff that I choose... sure GW gets their money from me, but I refuse to endorse on their rules and accept their force feeding of their preferred play style to my army, which is opposite of how they have written the Black Templars fluff...

 

Crusaders being bad at melee and forcing Primaris on us is almost the exact opposite of how we were written on story... Crusaders should be better on melee, while Primaris should only excel in what Ultramarines can do... in fact, they should not have access to any Chapter Tactic, but instead have one of their own...

[Schlitzaf]

Crusaders aren’t bad at Melee. MSU Crusaders are awful at Melee. Tide Crusaders are amazing at Melee being as efficient as Vanguard Units with several times more wounds. 5 Man MSU Crusaders are terrible for Melee. Low Wound Count, Low Attack Count. Tide Crusaders in contrast are amazing at Melee with large wound and body count.

 

I have done the math here comparing Tide Crusaders and Intercessors (as well as other tactical variants):

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/340107-tactical-squad-variants-and-analysis/ Scroll down a couple posts to where I say post chapter approved

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Schlitzaf, we've seen your math plenty of times, we know how it works and it is inarguable. The problem is your definition of 'amazing at melee' is everyone else's 'hits like a wet fish', because no matter how you dress it up, S4 AP0 D1 in the current meta sucks.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I must disagree a bit. I think that Chainswords attacks be masse is good against everything that have 3++. If you force your oponent to throw 20+ saves, always something sneaks through.

[Schlitzaf]

I mean fair Adel. My post was more in response to Rou saying that Crusaders suck in Melee While Intercessors are amazing. Which both are about equivalent. For 200 odd some points, it’s about 2 (4 in rapid) Heavy Bolter worth of Shooting or 10/20 Str 4 AP -1, 16 Str4 AP 0, 6 Power Sword, 10 Models, 20 Wounds (188), 2 Squads vs 11 Pistols shots, 2d6 autohit StR4 AP 0, 2 CombiBolter Shots, 1 Krak Grenade, then in melee 23 Str4 AP0, 3 PowSword, 14 wounds, across 14 bodies in 1 Squad. If you make equivalent points. You have 28 Str4 AP0 attacks in Melee. It comes out to about 5.88 vs 5.9. Spending the additional 8 points on Crusader Squad for the Power Swords or even just shifting ratios for to give Sword Brother a Power Sword, puts the damage of the squad around 6.30 (6.20) with only SB PowSword) dead marines.

 

You can debate the effectiveness of STR4 AP - attacks. That is fine. But Intercessors are not better than tide Crusaders at Melee

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I meant that Crusaders are bad at melee, considering that they shouldn't be, while shoving Primaris down at our throats and forcing us to do gunline 75% of the time... you say that Crusaders aren't bad, but you would be comparing them to bare Vanguard Veterans and Intercessors, which although do cost more in points, but Intercessor isn't meant for melee fights with their longer ranged bolter and higher AP while almost nobody runs Vanguards bare as it would just be a waste of points... I didn't mean that Intercessors are amazing at melee, I'm saying that they are just as good in melee as Crusaders, which makes me sad, while they aren't even meant to be used for melee combat...

 

Another issue is getting those 20+ chainsword attacks into melee, you just can't get them all in there unless you make your opponent not play on his turn... chances are he's going to knock more than a few Crusaders off the board with his shooting phase, which is the dominant factor in 8th edition, and then he'll knock a few more off with the psychic phase...

 

The main issue is using close combat crusaders as the backbone of any Black Templars force... using them as the main bulk of your army to capture objectives is fine, but relying on them to do most of the damage doesn't usually cut it for me... and as I've mentioned, using Crusaders mainly for tide isn't my cup of tea... I prefer mixing up my army or using transports or Drop Pods, and GW forcing me to use tide for Crusaders, mainly because running them in any other way would be shooting myself in the foot, ruins the flexibility and the creativity involved with creating an army... I hate being forced to have 1 play style when I have the option to run different types of armies with my models...

 

hence me stopping playing because GW has dictated, that since I play Templars, I have to run either Black Tide (which isn't a canon Templar tactic) or gunline... the original Templar strategy as was mentioned several times in 4th edition C:BT was Mechanized Assault or Orbital Assault... which are both sadly no longer efficient when running our army, since Land Raiders and Drop Pods are both expensive and next to useless...

[Medjugorje]

I mean fair Adel. My post was more in response to Rou saying that Crusaders suck in Melee While Intercessors are amazing. Which both are about equivalent. For 200 odd some points, it’s about 2 (4 in rapid) Heavy Bolter worth of Shooting or 10/20 Str 4 AP -1, 16 Str4 AP 0, 6 Power Sword, 10 Models, 20 Wounds (188), 2 Squads vs 11 Pistols shots, 2d6 autohit StR4 AP 0, 2 CombiBolter Shots, 1 Krak Grenade, then in melee 23 Str4 AP0, 3 PowSword, 14 wounds, across 14 bodies in 1 Squad. If you make equivalent points. You have 28 Str4 AP0 attacks in Melee. It comes out to about 5.88 vs 5.9. Spending the additional 8 points on Crusader Squad for the Power Swords or even just shifting ratios for to give Sword Brother a Power Sword, puts the damage of the squad around 6.30 (6.20) with only SB PowSword) dead marines.

 

You can debate the effectiveness of STR4 AP - attacks. That is fine. But Intercessors are not better than tide Crusaders at Melee

 

PLEASE

 

 

what about that math i posted?  IF you want to compare a full tide 20 Man Crusader squad, you should compare that in points. You can still have up to 10 Intercessors too - and they still cheaper then others.

[Schlitzaf]

Medj I did. Two Intercessor Squads with Power Swords is 188 points a tide squad runs you 190-200 points, and has been 13-16 models. The tide will average about one more dead model than the Intercessors will in sub 12” range.

 

Your math is wrong. Simply put in other way, you are right small Crusader Squads are bad at Melee. Larger squads are good because the way Neophytes and Initaites average out point wise. It’s same reason why Power Sword on tides are fine (2% costing upgrade increasing a tide damage output by 2%).

[Medjugorje]

it this math there is no exponential curve....

 

A comparison between a Crusadersquad with 7 guys to a 5 man intercessor makes no difference to 15 guys to 10 intercessors.

[Schlitzaf]

Yes it does....I literally showed the math above 14 Crusaders (Double Flamer, 188 Points) will kill about 6.2 MEQ While 10 Intercessors 5.8 (two Power Swords).

[Sword Brother Adelard]

it this math there is no exponential curve....

 

A comparison between a Crusadersquad with 7 guys to a 5 man intercessor makes no difference to 15 guys to 10 intercessors.

I'm no expert, but that statement is obviously incorrect. 7:5*2 ≠ 15:10

[Medjugorje]

yeah... even if a crusader squad get 1 man more... Its alwys the approximately the same end. The Primaris are so much stronger in input why they are so much stronger.

 

But I understand that for close combat its very important to make the squad bigger. A big crusadersquad makes more damage then a small and so the enemy will have less attacks to hurt your squad.

[arigatous]

I'm no expert, but that statement is obviously incorrect. 7:5*2 ≠ 15:10

 

 

Math is a bit different here because of neos.

 

7 crusaders are 5 ini 2 neo for the total of 13*5+11*2=87 pts

 

15 crusaders could be 5 ini 10 neo which gives 13*5+11*10=175 pts while 87*2=174 pts

 

That's how you get a "free" body because of unit size :) That will hurt AS a bit but nobody can prevent you from removing several ini first so you still have a 3+ buffer.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I take the point, but that wasn't what Medj was referring to really, he was essentially saying that doubling unit numbers would produce twice the result, not more. But he didn't balance the doubling.

(In fact, we know it has a negative result to double numbers in the same squad, as the SB is more efficient and can't be duplicated.)

I do kind of agree with the overall sentiment though, Intercessors are as good in melee as crusaders model for model. (Note, model for model, I'm not engaging in more maths!) Which seems off somehow when one of them is using a melee weapon and the other just their fists.

[Schlitzaf]

For those curious on the hard math

One Crusader Squad w/ 7 Intiaites, 7 Neophytes, And 1 SB. The squad has two Power Weapons, is 189, 15 Wounds.

 

Two Intercessor Squads w/ PowWeapon is 188 and 20 Wounds.

 

The Crusader Squad puts out 40 STR4 AP 0 Attack in Optimum range. Equating to roughly 4.44 Marine Dead + 3 PowSword attacks which add 0.84. Then 1 Krak Grenade for a total of 5.5 MEQ Dead

 

The Intercessor Squads puts out 20 STR 4 AP -1, for 3.33 Dead Marines. Plus 16 STR 4 AP 0 adding another 1.8. Then 6 Power Swords, attack’s adding 1.7. So when trying to exact equivalancys the favor is in Intercessor Squad. Overall.

 

6.5 vs 5.5. But of that only 3.5 of Intercessors come Melee. While Crusaders roughly 3.8 is Melee. And if the Crusaders drop a Intaite for a Flamer/Storm Bolter. Roughly adding another 0.5 dead MeQ. Difference becomes 6.5 vs 6.0. Adding a combi-Flamer (9 points) makes it about equal. But this is getting long and dragged out.

 

At worse this means overall efficiency is just over 5% in favor of Intercessors (188 vs 196). In terms of purely Melee Efficiency. Crusaders have about a 10% better efficiency on a squad level. A squad of Crusaders at 189 points kills 3.8-4.0 to Intercessors at 188 killing 3.4-3.6. Secondly the Intercessors in this circumstance need to be two seperate squads. If they are only one squad (184 points) the Intercessors kill only 6-6.1 overall (2.84 in Melee) Which actually makes the squad equivalent to the Crusader Squad in overall killing power.

 

Finally. Taking the above examples and adding Marshall/Castallen buffs. Adds 1.2 more dead fl the Crusader Squad. While Intercessor example adds only about 1 overall. Basically long story short.

 

The two squads are very similar. Intercessors MSU very well, Crusaders basically have to tide because they need Neophytes to help make the comparison efficiency work out. Which is what I been saying again and again. MSU/10 Man Crusaders should be Intercessors unless razorspam. While Crusaders should be taken as Tide Squads alongside Intercessors whom provide fire support while Crusaders claim.