[IK] Valiant-based list: Hawkshroud or Raven?

[Feral_80]

I really want to field a Valiant-based list even if it is probably a not-so-great choice. At 2.000 pts (ITC) list, something like:

• 1 Guard/Skitarii (see below) basic Battalion for CPs: ca. 200 pts
• 1 SH detachment: 2 Helverins, 1 Warden, 1 Gallant, 1 Valiant: the rest

For a whopping 14 CPs to start with. Auto-deduct 2 for at least 1 extra relic and 1 extra wl trait, but still 12 is very good.

 

Now the <household> I will choose will impact greatly on the performance of the list. While it’s probably true that relics generally dictate Valiant = Imperial and Castellan = Mechanicum, after some thought it seems to me that I have two options:

• Hawkshroud: this seems the most obvious, but not necessarily the only good choice.
• Raven: there are a number of good reasons for this.

Here’s the pros and cons I can think of:

 

 

Hawkshroud:

• House trait is basically a free, army-wide Machine Spirit Resurgent for 3/4 of the life expectancy of all my knights.
• Still, it does nothing at all to an undamaged knight; and no MSR for when you *really* need it might suck.
• Guard battalion is slightly cheaper than Skitarii, and better as a battery: this build will have plenty of CPs.
• However, if I elect the AM Officer as my wl for the mandatory CP-regen trait, I’ll need to spend more CPs anyway to take extra Knight characters, relics, and traits.
• Guard battalion also allows me to include a Primaris Psyker, which can provide a modicum of protection against some nasty mortal wounds & c.
• Imperial-only Valiant conflagration cannon relic is great.
• House stratagem: makes the Valiant and everything around it almost un-chargeable.
• Overall quite short-ranged + not particularly mobile: might struggle vs gunlines.

 

Raven:

• Machine Spirit Resurgent is a thing.
• However, it's 1 knight per phase only, and also it will likely drain 1 CP per turn.
• Skitarii battalion can provide minor repairs with double TPE – still better than nothing. AND I’ll have two crazy small dudes running along the Knights for nuisance and objective rush (& likely spectacular death) 
• Stygies VIII makes 3x 5-man rangers reasonably durable campers. Add Dragoons for extra lulz (chicken charge+knights!), but I’d need to cut on the Helverins ☹
• House trait is good for pretty much all my knights, except for the Gallant. It makes the army more mobile, and that is very important in ITC. And it is especially good for the Valiant, to which it might net 1 extra turn (turn one) of shooting.
• Still, I doubt it will be really (*that*) useful after turn 1 – can’t advance if you disengage, and I surely want to be in melee by turn 2 at the latest (except for the Helverins).
• No relic conflagration cannon sucks. There are other decent relics I can get in that slot though.
• However, house stratagem somewhat counterbalances the no-relic cannon (although at the cost of 2 CP): against infantry, reroll 1s is often the same or *almost* the same of rerolling failed wounds, and to make up for the rest it also extends to all other many unreliable variables and weapons. Seems very interesting, even for a non-Castellan with Cawl's Wrath.
• Overall, more frequent 'basic' stratagems and no battery will make this build net quite less CPs.

 

 

 

So, what to choose? Hawkshroud seems to have more (and more significant) ‘plus’, but those of Raven seem quite interesting as well. For example, tomorrow I’m facing Harlequins: which one would you choose? I’d say Hawkshroud to protect against their assaults, but they have a relic that prevents overwatch, and I’ll also need mobility…and I'm terribly scared by their mortal-wound haywire spam.

 

Feel free to suggest any alternative builds/houses I’ve not considered, if you think they are suited to my list.

[jeffersonian000]

Raven is such a dominate House with its trait and strat, it’s hard to not go Raven given the choices. Hawkshroud is good for when you don’t really play aggressively, but Raven is for those that play Knights like they have a pair ... of Wrecking Balls.

 

SJ

[KhorneHunter57x]

• Guard battalion also allows me to include a Primaris Psyker, which can provide a modicum of protection against some nasty mortal wounds & c.

Hawkshroud's Relic also helps with defense against psychic mortal wounds.

[sneakybamsen]

I'd say Raven over Hawkshroud, even as that means no relic conflagration cannon (rerolling failed wounds is great, yeah. But not having it isn't the end of the world, and it's the only difference between the relic and the non-relic). Why? Cause of mechanicus stratagems. Yes, a gallant benefits less from advancing and shooting heavy weapons, but that's not a concern, as your gallant will want to fulltilt advance and charge anyways (with Landstrider support) for turn 1 glory, and as house Raven, you get to shoot while doing just that (albeit it only a melta or heavy stubber, or, if points permit, heavy stubber plus ironstorm missile pod or stormspear).

 

I have one concern about the Valiant though, and I think it's generally shared by competitive players (not that I can claim to be competitive, really) - it's not a melee knight. Yes, it's big and tough(er), but the harpoon and flamer doesn't make it good in CC. It's only got it's feet and they'll only hit on 4's. Yes, if you advance it, you won't be charging with it, and falling back is not an issue, as long as you can find a spot to stand in, but it means people will be less intimadated by it's CC prowess, although that flamer is a charge deterrent in it's purest form. If it had an advantage in CC over the Castellan, I'd be more inclined towards the Valiant, but sadly it doesn't. To me it seems too expensive to be worth it. If I'll be getting a Dominus class knight, it's going to be the Castellan run with my other knights as either house Krast or Raven. Might even be accompanied by a battalion of my finest from the First, depending on level of competitiveness.

[Mushkilla]

There's nothing stopping the mechanicus houses having guard allies (they have access to the same CP battery). So all those guard related pros/cons are not relevant when comparing the two.

 

 

Imperial houses can have skitarii allies. However, adeptus mechanicus repair only works on questors mechanicus.

[Feral_80]

Yes, I forgot that, apart from the repair thing, my choice of allies is essentially dictated by fluff. I do not want to mix&match those, even if I could.

 

Seems like Raven is predominant at the moment.

[Feral_80]

So for the record, yesterday I had that Knights vs Harlequin match. I chose Raven and I won. To sum up:

 

- Harlequins put out a horrendous amount of mortal wounds between the psychic and shooting phase. That was really horrible to face with IK.

- His bikes with haywire stuff are crazy. At 3w each, 4++, each putting out d6 haywire shots that deal MWs on 4+ (and d3 on 6+), they are durable and super-nasty. He fielded 12 bikes, and in 1 turn he put 28 wounds on my Valiant. These bikes are glass cannons, but man do they hit hard. I must thank the invaluable Helverins for taking most of them down. 

- The Valiant did pretty much nothing at all, except saving the other big knights by eating up all fire for a turn. Then he died. It is slow (even as Raven), short-ranged, and l-o-s blocking terrain does the rest: I am even more convinced now that he is not worth his 600 pts cost, sadly, unless you are playing a defensive game.

- Raven saved my butt because of two stratagems: the Benevolence of the Machine God, and MSR. They were both essential in surviving and dealing some damage. I also found Cognis Heavy Stubbers very nasty and useful as a defensive asset against small Harlequin units.

- Overall, these stratagems were very probably worth it. Although, Hawkshroud's stratagem would have been VERY useful in countering some of his charges. 

 

Anyway, so far so good. I almost tabled him and ended the game with a Helverin on 3 W, another one untouched, the Gallant at 8 W, and some untouched Skitarii chaff.

 

Damn mortal wounds.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

What was yours specific WL And relics ob knights?

How gallant performed?

[Feral_80]

Warlord was the Warden with Endless fury.

The Gallant had landstrider and the 2+ relic armour. He was great, as he resisted really a lot of enemy CC and was the only big knight still standing at the end of the game.