Quick q - WFTDA & Auspex Scan

[Brother Worsey]

Do they stack? Can I use WFTDA with my Hellblasters & Auspex scan when my opp drops in from reserves? It's the whole "as if it's the shooting phase" wording in Auspex scan, and I have a feeling I might see some use for it in my local itc comp next weekend.

 

Cheers

[Solrac]

The answer is no. Stratagem's only apply exceptions to themselves.

 

Auspex scan allows you to shoot at a unit as if it was the shooting phase if it meets the other requirements and Auspex scan is usually used in the movement phase (sometimes the psychic phase). The "shoot as if it is the shooting phase" only applies to the stratagem, it does not make it the shooting phase. As it is still the movement phase Weapons from the Dark Age cannot be used.

[GreenMoss]

"The answer is no. Stratagem's only apply exceptions to themselves."

 

Sorry, what rule are you basing this on?

 

The exact wording of WotDA is "use this Stratagem just before DA unit from your army attacks in your Shooting phase." The exact wording of Auspex Scan: "Your unit can immediately shoot at the enemy unit as if it were your Shooting phase." Seems pretty clear to me.

[BlackTriton]

Since you are still not attacking in your shooting phase, I would rule that you cannot combine the stratagem.

 

Acting as "if it was" dosent change the requierment WotDA of actually being in your shooting phase.

[Solrac]

"The answer is no. Stratagem's only apply exceptions to themselves."

 

Sorry, what rule are you basing this on?

 

The exact wording of WotDA is "use this Stratagem just before DA unit from your army attacks in your Shooting phase." The exact wording of Auspex Scan: "Your unit can immediately shoot at the enemy unit as if it were your Shooting phase." Seems pretty clear to me.

 

As I said "Immediately shoot at the enemy unit as if it were your Shooting Phase" does not change the phase you are in to the shooting phase. You are doing an action out of turn and that line in the stratagem is defining the rules in which you take the shooting attack.

 

WotDA can only be used in the actual Shooting Phase so it is clear you cannot combine the two as Auspex scan would only ever be used in your enemies Movement or Psychic phase when a unit comes in from reserve or be placed "like a unit coming in from reserve" in terms of certain psychic powers.

 

If WotDA only said "use this Stratagem just before DA unit from your army makes a shooting attack" then you would be able to use it anytime including overwatch as overwatch is a shooting attack. However the Stratagem for WotDA specifically says can only be used in the Shooting Phase.

[GreenMoss]

So I asked this in my local gaming chat and boy did it get heated. Don't want to repeat that discussion here but to summarise my position, when something says "as if X" to me that means all conditions that apply during X also apply. For example, are you also saying that the unit using Auspex cannot use Devastator sergeant Signum (it also specifies shooting phase)? I think there's a reason Auspex strat actually says make a shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase instead of simply saying make a shooting attack (yes, I agree that it's there to define the rules to make a shooting attack and WotDA is an additional rule that can be applied). 

[MaxB]

I would vote with Solrac here... the wording of WotDA is clear when you can use the strat "in your shooting phase".

You are using Auspex scan in your opponents movement phase. So no WotDA.

I would think the "as if it were the shooting phase" just means hooting phase rules apply to the auspex scan shots (order of rolling, targeting characters, etc)

[Solrac]

So I asked this in my local gaming chat and boy did it get heated. Don't want to repeat that discussion here but to summarise my position, when something says "as if X" to me that means all conditions that apply during X also apply. For example, are you also saying that the unit using Auspex cannot use Devastator sergeant Signum (it also specifies shooting phase)? I think there's a reason Auspex strat actually says make a shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase instead of simply saying make a shooting attack (yes, I agree that it's there to define the rules to make a shooting attack and WotDA is an additional rule that can be applied). 

 

If the line "shoot at a unit as if it was the shooting phase" was not in the stratagem text there would, rules as written wise, nothing stopping you from making a shooting attack on a unit that deepstruck within 12" but were out of line of sight.

 

Move, Shoot, Attack as if it was X phase was a genius move by GW. These lines of text are only ever found where you are doing things out of turn and are there to tell you exactly what governs the out of turn action, nothing more. 

 

The Signum rules say "Before the unit Shoots in the Shooting phase" so no Signum would also not be able to be used with Auspex Scan.

 

Break Auspex Scan down to it's very basic instructions

 

1. Use Stratagem

2. Pick a Unit with 12" of enemy reserve unit

3. Shoot at that unit (these shots have -1 to hit but otherwise follow all the rules from the shooting phase).

 

The phase you are in is still the Movement phase you are just making an out of turn action. The Stratagem does not change the phase you are in. There is no Before the unit shoots in the Shooting phase for either the Signum or WotDA because we are not in the Shooting Phase we are in the Movement Phase.

 

A lot of the stratagem texts are very literal like a line of code. Yes sometimes certain rules can be a little ambiguous but most of the time confusion is caused by people interpreting a rule in their own way or even in some cases read what they want to read (I'm not implying you are doing this by the way but I know people that do this).  

[Ariakas]

The exact wording of WotDA is "use this Stratagem just before DA unit from your army attacks in your Shooting phase." The exact wording of Auspex Scan: "Your unit can immediately shoot at the enemy unit as if it were your Shooting phase." Seems pretty clear to me.

 

Agreed. Shooting "as if it were your shooting phase" means, for all technical intents and purposes, this game event has created a tiny version of your shooting phase. All modifiers and rules that would apply to your shooting phase would apply in this circumstance as well. You can't pick and choose when the wording "as if it were your shooting phase" applies. GW is the only one who can, and they should, in an FAQ.

[Basteala]

No matter how the rule is interpreted, I really hope the next FAQ addresses this just so this kind of subject doesn't come up in the middle of a game.Both arguments make some kind of logical sense. "Shoot as if it is the shooting phase, meaning your models can behave as if it were the shooting phase ," and "shoot as if it were the shooting phase =/= shooting phase, therefore stratagems in the shooting phase don't apply."

[Ariakas]

100% agree. And this can't be the only interaction of two stratagems acting in this manner. I wonder if it's possibly covered in another book's FAQ?

[Ariakas]

My buddy made a good point. He said the Blood Angels stratagem that allows Death Company a free move at the beginning of the game, “as if it was your move phase,” allows an advance move. Because all the rules and options that exist in your actual move phase also exist when it’s “as if it was your move phase.”

 

I’d still like to find an analogy that uses two stratagems that works, but that still seemed pretty compelling to me.

[Brother Worsey]

Didn't realise this would stir up such a healthy debate iih!

 

Look at it another way:

 

Our Marine spots a target (it's his "shooting phase"):

1. It's a Grot, so he just goes with his lowest power setting on his plasma incinerator as he eases the trigger. Boom. Dead Grot.

2. He spots an Ork Nob. He gives it a bit more by pressing the red Overcharge button on his Incinerator as he pulls the trigger. BOOM. Dead Nob.

3. He spots a Killa Kan. For the Emperor! He goes all in, and hits the thumb button (WFTDA) as well as the red overcharge button & trigger. BOOOOOM. Dead Kan, and our Marine advances forward, scanning the terrain for more Greenskins.

 

Suddenly, a target drops in via Deepstrike to our Marine's left, almost catching him by surprise (cos it's the enemy's Movement phase). He's only alerted by the loud siren emitted by his Auspex. It's a Killa Kan (work with me here). He needs to deal with the threat if his Brothers can secure the perimeter.

 

Why can't/won't he give it option 3?

[Solrac]

Didn't realise this would stir up such a healthy debate iih!

 

Look at it another way:

 

Our Marine spots a target (it's his "shooting phase"):

1. It's a Grot, so he just goes with his lowest power setting on his plasma incinerator as he eases the trigger. Boom. Dead Grot.

2. He spots an Ork Nob. He gives it a bit more by pressing the red Overcharge button on his Incinerator as he pulls the trigger. BOOM. Dead Nob.

3. He spots a Killa Kan. For the Emperor! He goes all in, and hits the thumb button (WFTDA) as well as the red overcharge button & trigger. BOOOOOM. Dead Kan, and our Marine advances forward, scanning the terrain for more Greenskins.

 

Suddenly, a target drops in via Deepstrike to our Marine's left, almost catching him by surprise (cos it's the enemy's Movement phase). He's only alerted by the loud siren emitted by his Auspex. It's a Killa Kan (work with me here). He needs to deal with the threat if his Brothers can secure the perimeter.

 

Why can't/won't he give it option 3?

 

Because fluff/story common sense does not translate to the rules of the game sadly.

[PhilB]

I could be reading what I want to hear, but it looks as though our cousins in blue have a different point of view on this?

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348355-auspex-scan-scions-of-guilliman/

[SnakeChisler]

If there is a conflict of self interest in a rules interpretation as in this case it should always go to the conservative reading rather than expanding things into new territory.

 

Encompassing WOTDA into the opponents movement phase is new territory

 

Also Auspex scan says you must shoot immediately the unit is slapped on the table which popping by the stratagem shop for a quick dip into WOTDA breaks that chain as well because your immediately spending CP's on a Strat not  shooting.

 

I've put my foot down a couple of times on this, if you don't call it straight away you don't get the chance to watch where all my DS units go then choose, same with the Eldar one, immediate means what it says. 

[G8Keeper]

Well, my regular opponents have all agreed I can use both together on games against them if I so choose.  Should help the dynamic, even if i don't ever use it :)

[Ariakas]

I could be reading what I want to hear, but it looks as though our cousins in blue have a different point of view on this?

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348355-auspex-scan-scions-of-guilliman/

 

Yeah I think this thread sums it up nicely. "As if it's the shooting phase" is the shooting phase, for the purposes of applicable rules. To argue otherwise adds rules/text that simply isn't there, and so to apply it that way, you would need documented GW intervention.