Warhammer Horror

[Sandlemad]

You know, Storm Constantine's near-forgotten short story 'Lacymata' from the Deathwing anthology is both a horror-ish story trading on the metaphysics of the warp and a 40k love story. Not, like, elements of romance in a detective or war story but an actual romance between a navigator and an astropath, rendered pretty sensitively. Even got a little racy. If this is the kind of story that could get more editorial acceptance in a horror-focused line (not in a 'tone it down' sense but being free from the 'needs more action/battle scenes' impulse), then great.

 

Track of Words did a decent overview here: https://www.trackofwords.com/2017/03/15/forgotten-texts-lacrymata-by-storm-constantine/

 

@ ADB: I get what you're saying about what constitutes 'mature' and how this shouldn't be seen as a simple opposite to the Warhammer Adventures. Maybe we're also conflating 'not explicitly military scifi' with 'more mature' here, which is probably unfair to what's being written already and leaning too heavily on marketing copy.

 

That said, more breadth of stories is good. More room being made for non-battlefield stuff and the cool horror-ish aspects of existing work to take centre stage is pretty dang exciting. Even if not everything in this line comes with the psychological depth, ambiguity, etc. that we're marking as mature (and that is already present in existing non-horror books), that's fine because it's another avenue for those elements to come through in some works, at least.

[Xisor]

Volt, I get the impression that what you're after is the very far end of horror, right into vicarious sadism; not what is actually published and sold under the heading horror. I could be wrong, on both legs, but it seems that way.

 

For the record: feeling the anguish of a father seeing his children killed isn't something I ever want to feel, by proxy or else. As such: If a BL book does such a thing, there's a very real chance I'll set the book down, walk off and never look back. (The start of Skarsnik is the closest any BL book has come, for that matter.)

 

As ADB has said (more than once now, keep it up!); this is marketing. Many BL stories already qualify as horror. If readers will read them and buyers buy, and writers write, then it is simply the case BL are providing the imprint to allow that to happen and begin cultivating that.

 

Which, to my ears, sounds just dandy.

[Volt]

Volt, I get the impression that what you're after is the very far end of horror, right into vicarious sadism; not what is actually published and sold under the heading horror. I could be wrong, on both legs, but it seems that way.

 

For the record: feeling the anguish of a father seeing his children killed isn't something I ever want to feel, by proxy or else. As such: If a BL book does such a thing, there's a very real chance I'll set the book down, walk off and never look back. (The start of Skarsnik is the closest any BL book has come, for that matter.)

 

As ADB has said (more than once now, keep it up!); this is marketing. Many BL stories already qualify as horror. If readers will read them and buyers buy, and writers write, then it is simply the case BL are providing the imprint to allow that to happen and begin cultivating that.

 

Which, to my ears, sounds just dandy.

It's not sadism, it's that not only does Warhammer need to live up to it's so-called grim darkness, but also that the human element actually needs to be humanized so the deaths of civilians stops feeling like empty statistics with no weight in bother 40k and AOS. The best way to do that is to put the reader in the shoes of the victim, to completely depower them instead of providing a power fantasy, and to then showcase the most horrifying situations while retaining a piece of grit and realism.

 

There is also traditional horror, but I'd also like them to take a stab at finally putting a soul into 40k instead of the universe just revolving around named characters with billions of civilians dying without much of the fanbase feeling anything. The Black Library should aspire, as all forms of literature and art on a whole- to make its readers go through the full spectrum of human emotion depending on the subject. I want a 40k book that makes me tear up or emotionally disturbs me, instead of the usual emotions of what amounts to your typical action movie. I want to both be repulsed, yet keep reading because while I hate what's happening I must find out what happens to this lowly protagonist because the author has ensured I've forged an emotional connection. And allowing that connection to then be extended to the greater body of civilians in 40k, humanizing them and giving them "life" so they are no longer just props on the set.

 

The closest I can think of that also had a horror angle was Dead Men Walking, which is one of my 40k books but IMO I'd rather have the protagonist not turn into a rageful power fantasy figure who goes on to blow up the Necron tomb, but remains weak and is incapable of facing any threat with a response other than simply running away. An average joe or joanne who can do nothing to stop these horrifying events and can only hide in fear. 

[Knockagh]

Volt, I get the impression that what you're after is the very far end of horror, right into vicarious sadism; not what is actually published and sold under the heading horror. I could be wrong, on both legs, but it seems that way.

 

For the record: feeling the anguish of a father seeing his children killed isn't something I ever want to feel, by proxy or else. As such: If a BL book does such a thing, there's a very real chance I'll set the book down, walk off and never look back.

.

I’m with you here. I was just thinking after reading those comments this morning if that’s the direction BL is going I would be finished with it. I’m a dad and wouldn’t have stuff like that in the house never mind enjoy reading it. I wouldn’t touch a brand that produced putrid things like that.

[bluntblade]

Sex scenes, even graphic sex scenes, can serve a higher literary purpose than to titillate orthe reader...really depends on how they're used

Even just to humanise a character. There's a detail in Battle of the Fang with serfs spending "time behind the bulkhead" which immediately makes the world feel that bit more lived-in.

 

Re Lovecraft, he operated at an intersection of sci-fi and horror. I'd say it's perfectly valid to call his stuff horror, just as it would be erroneous to say that Alien isn't horror because it's also sci-fi.

[A D-B]

Volt, I get what you want, but that's not what I'm referring to, and that's not what this keeps getting interpreted as online. It's horror stories. It's not Warhammer 18+ as a counter to Warhammer For Kids.

 

It's an imprint for horror stories.

 

 

@ ADB: I get what you're saying about what constitutes 'mature' and how this shouldn't be seen as a simple opposite to the Warhammer Adventures. Maybe we're also conflating 'not explicitly military scifi' with 'more mature' here, which is probably unfair to what's being written already and leaning too heavily on marketing copy.

 

Yes. That.

 

Horror stories about stuff away from the battlefield? Yes, absolutely. Almost definitely! But it's horror stories on or away from the battlefield. Not horror stories on or away from the battlefield. That's exactly what's going on here. "Not explicitly military sci-fi" isn't the same thing as 'more mature'. They're horror stories, and horror isn't usually a genre for kids. That doesn't mean everything else is explicitly censored or that horror as a genre is a counter to whatever kids read. 

 

 

Volt, I get the impression that what you're after is the very far end of horror, right into vicarious sadism; not what is actually published and sold under the heading horror. I could be wrong, on both legs, but it seems that way.

For the record: feeling the anguish of a father seeing his children killed isn't something I ever want to feel, by proxy or else. As such: If a BL book does such a thing, there's a very real chance I'll set the book down, walk off and never look back. (The start of Skarsnik is the closest any BL book has come, for that matter.)

As ADB has said (more than once now, keep it up!); this is marketing. Many BL stories already qualify as horror. If readers will read them and buyers buy, and writers write, then it is simply the case BL are providing the imprint to allow that to happen and begin cultivating that.

Which, to my ears, sounds just dandy.

 

Yes! Exactly so. 

 

If there were more imprints, and they were announced at the same time, there'd probably be fewer misunderstandings. Instead people are conflating it with the opposite of Warhammer Adventures and saying things like "This is author driven to finally write what they want to write" and that's completely wrong.

[Marshal Rohr]

Sex scenes, even graphic sex scenes, can serve a higher literary purpose than to titillate orthe reader...really depends on how they're used

I’ve never found a scene in literature or movies that was necessary. See the book version of IT for a great example.

[helterskelter]

 

Sex scenes, even graphic sex scenes, can serve a higher literary purpose than to titillate orthe reader...really depends on how they're used

I’ve never found a scene in literature or movies that was necessary. See the book version of IT for a great example.

I raise you the saucy pottery scene from Ghost.

 

Generally though, I think the point is flying over far too many heads, Horror is there to scare people, to frighten people, to send shivers up the spine, give you goosebumps, make you jump/cack your pants, it's not about sex or violence, it's about the spoops yo.

[Knockagh]

Not sure how sex scenes entered the fray. They have their place as and when they arise. No doubt sex can have an important place in the normal human of indeed Eldar novels. But it’s not horror, at least the sex I’ve been having isnt horror! Is there such a thing as horror sex? Will I regret asking that???

[b1soul]

I was saying that BL censorship is largely limited to foul language and sex

 

EDIT: Someone brought up the topic of censorship.

[Marshal Rohr]

Not sure how sex scenes entered the fray. They have their place as and when they arise. No doubt sex can have an important place in the normal human of indeed Eldar novels. But it’s not horror, at least the sex I’ve been having isnt horror! Is there such a thing as horror sex? Will I regret asking that???

Vampires were originally mentioned in the announcement and sex is integral to how vampires feed (iirc, it’s been a while since junior year and Dracula). The whole of the novel is about carnal corruption (again, if my teacher wasn’t just being a creep).

[Sandlemad]

 

Generally though, I think the point is flying over far too many heads, Horror is there to scare people, to frighten people, to send shivers up the spine, give you goosebumps, make you jump/cack your pants, it's not about sex or violence, it's about the spoops yo.

 

 

Horror's odd like that, isn't it? A genre named after a particular emotion it's supposed to evoke rather than a description of the content. It works as a term as long as we accept that the spoops up here *taps head* can be as valuable as the spoops in here *taps heart*.

[Marshal Rohr]

What’s a spoop

[Sandlemad]

Spoops ---> spooks, derived from one badly misspelled Halloween sign that went viral.

[Marshal Rohr]

Spoops ---> spooks, derived from one badly misspelled Halloween sign that went viral.

Awesome quality meme

[DarkChaplain]

Not sure how sex scenes entered the fray. They have their place as and when they arise. No doubt sex can have an important place in the normal human of indeed Eldar novels. But it’s not horror, at least the sex I’ve been having isnt horror! Is there such a thing as horror sex? Will I regret asking that???

 

The recently published game "Agony" was banking hard on its sexual horror themes (I mean, some of the demons have ladyparts as faces, there are succubi and what not), but that game tanked hard the moment they announced they had to tone it down to get classification for release. Oops.

 

Sexuality is a theme in a lot of horror content. I mean, Slaanesh alone is a reason to explore sexual themes in the Horror line. There's something pretty terrifying about how Slaanesh-cults marry sexual pleasures with mutilation and a loss of self. John French actually wrote something pretty Slaaneshi in one of the Horusian Wars shorts, which highlighted the complete disconnect between reality and the way a Slaanesh follower perceives her surroundings and own person.

The Daemonculaba in Dead Sky, Black Sun, too, was horrifying, though only a blip of the novel.

 

And yeah, sexuality has also been a theme in vampire fiction throughout the centuries. It even has a place in Age of Sigmar right now, with Neferata's vampires turning powerful figures into puppets of desire. One of the Malign Portents short stories directly alluded to that.

Then there's the aforementioned Succubi, which have become basically synonymous with sexy demon ladies that will just as soon murder you as they had their fill. They're pretty common in pop culture now.

 

All that being said, I think sexuality, on many levels, can make for fantastic fertile ground for horror tales. Key is the approach to it, and using it in a way that chills the reader, rather than having them feel turned on (though, seeing how even cartoon ponies are an object of desire for some folks on the internet, I have no doubt that some people will inevitably draw the wrong emotions from it).

 

Had I any real talent writing more than angry letters, I'd have an example story basically ready in the back of my mind, just thinking about cases where sexuality can tie into horror

[Xisor]

 

I’m guessing here, but I think the desire for a horror series has come from the authors.

 

 

For the record, again, no one's particularly censored. It's not author-driven. It's just a cool imprint to tell horror stories in 40K.

It occurred to me at BLL (and only bubbled back up from the depths of memory today) that I would put solid money on the origins of the idea. Very solid money.

 

Warhammer Horror. I'm 100% certain the pun came first. Probably over a pint/coffee/random chat.

[DarkChaplain]

If so, we should probably blame Josh Reynolds for it.

[Knockagh]

@ darkchaplin a great answer on the sex questions. How could I ignore slaanesh!

 

A dark Eldar horror novel would be truely grim indeed.

 

Don’t knock angry letter writing it’s a dying art.

[Cleanse And Purify]

Meh. The only sex scenes I ever read that I thought added anything worthwhile were those in Joe Abercrombie's First Law books, and that's because they were so damn awkward and silly (on purpose) that they served as a wonderful foil to the overarching grimness of the narrative.

 

All other sex scenes are just generally cringeworthy IMO. And for what its worth, there has been sex in BL novels before. Gaunt's Ghosts and the Sigmar trilogy from WFRP both include some material, though generally of the "fade to black" type. The Night Lords trilogy had the implied sexual assault of Octavia as well, though it is never confirmed what happens (which fits the story IMO).

[DarkChaplain]

The Witcher series has a bunch of sex scenes in the books, and some of them are pretty vital overall, or comedic, or properly develop relationships between characters in ways you wouldn't expect. Few of them are a rundown of their sexual activities, but there is quite a good amount of "between the sheets" dialogue throughout.

And in comics I'd highly recommend Sunstone, which is basically about a couple of lesbians exploring a BDSM relationship, where the sex is nothing if not a tasteful, well-showcased vehicle for their development as people and partners. It's the crux of the story that everything revolves around, but serves as a way to characterize the protagonists in a heartwarming way.

 

It really is all about how the sexual elements are used in the story. It can be front and center and serve as a way to underline the horror, or something subtle to show intimacy between otherwise rather odd characters. If thrown in to tick a checkbox, it won't work in most instances. If it is used as part of a wider theme, though, like with Slaanesh pleasure cults? I'd be seriously disappointed if it wasn't made use of.

[Frater Antodeniel]

Personally, i think that the new Black Library Horror line is a good idea and the perfect way to describe a large part of the warhammer 40K Universe, for an Adult public.

 

The current Black Library line do have already some Horror part, but it does not really describe how Horrific the 40K Universe can truly be.

 

One iconic exemple is the Exterminatus protocol....that is sometimes enacted by ground forces, sometimes butchering all in violent hand to hand fightings. Space Marines have been noted to proceed in such ways numerous times, yet.....never to my knowledge has a description of such events ever been realised.

 

It is universally aknowledged that War is an Horrific and Traumatic experience for human mind, most notably for those "pure" who do not suffer of mental illness (such as Psychopathy or Sociopathy, yet i believe that, considering the personality of numerous Astartes, most Astartes tend to become Psychopaths or Sociopaths in the end).

 

Also, Daemons only increase the Horror of the Universe, could you imagine how disturbing it would be for any sane human/Astartes to observe at scenes such as, Nurgle cultists jumping and "bathing" with enthusiasm, in a fresh Great Unclean one dejection, while dying or "transforming" in the process, with the same Great Unclean looking and laughing at the scene of his minions fully embracing Nurgle "benediction"....Yes, i know this scene is quite distrubing, i imagined it while torturing my mind for the last Black Library constest.

 

And what about the Xenos and their "extermination", how horrific can you rate the passage of an Astartes slaughering Genestealers tainted humans...Man...Women...Children...Babies...how much can one mind take and think it "acceptable". Yet in the 41st millennium, it matters little to an Astartes that a Xenos is a crying baby still hold strongly in his dead mother arms, or that it is an vulnerable old person, for in the end, the Astartes will, and must, execute all.

 

The whole point of the Warhammer Horror Books will not be, how far can author describes the brutality of war, and the actions that must be done to ensure mankind survival in the 41st millenium, but how much horrors (and realities) is the reader mind capable to accept.

[b1soul]

I think sex has no more and no less place in literature than violence

[cheywood]

Personally, i think that the new Black Library Horror line is a good idea and the perfect way to describe a large part of the warhammer 40K Universe, for an Adult public.

 

The current Black Library line do have already some Horror part, but it does not really describe how Horrific the 40K Universe can truly be.

 

One iconic exemple is the Exterminatus protocol....that is sometimes enacted by ground forces, sometimes butchering all in violent hand to hand fightings. Space Marines have been noted to proceed in such ways numerous times, yet.....never to my knowledge has a description of such events ever been realised.

 

It is universally aknowledged that War is an Horrific and Traumatic experience for human mind, most notably for those "pure" who do not suffer of mental illness (such as Psychopathy or Sociopathy, yet i believe that, considering the personality of numerous Astartes, most Astartes tend to become Psychopaths or Sociopaths in the end).

 

Also, Daemons only increase the Horror of the Universe, could you imagine how disturbing it would be for any sane human/Astartes to observe at scenes such as, Nurgle cultists jumping and "bathing" with enthusiasm, in a fresh Great Unclean one dejection, while dying or "transforming" in the process, with the same Great Unclean looking and laughing at the scene of his minions fully embracing Nurgle "benediction"....Yes, i know this scene is quite distrubing, i imagined it while torturing my mind for the last Black Library constest.

 

And what about the Xenos and their "extermination", how horrific can you rate the passage of an Astartes slaughering Genestealers tainted humans...Man...Women...Children...Babies...how much can one mind take and think it "acceptable". Yet in the 41st millennium, it matters little to an Astartes that a Xenos is a crying baby still hold strongly in his dead mother arms, or that it is an vulnerable old person, for in the end, the Astartes will, and must, execute all.

 

The whole point of the Warhammer Horror Books will not be, how far can author describes the brutality of war, and the actions that must be done to ensure mankind survival in the 41st millenium, but how much horrors (and realities) is the reader mind capable to accept.

That sounds more like torture/gore-porn than horror in its gratuity and subject matter. Apologies for speaking archly, but there’s absolutely no way BL’s publishing anything resembling that. There are publishers who cater to those audiences, but GW and its subsidiaries have too wide an audience both age and interest wise to publish anything so... polarising.

 

Not to speak for him but ADB’s been pretty clear about the Horror imprint being consistent with the rest of BL’s work in terms of what’s audience-appropriate. It’s horror oriented Warhammer fiction. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

More broadly to everyone wanting the authors to ‘take the the kid gloves off’: why would anyone writing for BL keep writing for them if they were constantly censored? There’s nothing stopping Dan Abnett from writing like the Marquis de Sade for his original fiction, except for the near-certainty he has no desire to do so.

[slitth]

I would love to see a story where a pregnant woman whose husband is under the influence of genestealers.

Just to see how she will react to him becoming strange and how the pregnancy will influence her.