Looking for advice after first game

[Ceranidian]

Thanks again for all the advice, super helpful. I'm considering bringing the Osseus Key on my Watch Master as sort of a last ditch solution against heavy armour. That and the Clavis strategem should be able to take a decent chunk out of vehicles. 

 

Would consider adding VV in the Vet squads but then they won't fit in the Corvus, and I guess I'm sort of going for an "all eggs in one flying basket"-strategy. Librarian is there for psychic defense and potentially tossing some mortal wounds on vehicles, although I definitely see your point of mortal wounds being suboptimal against hordes of Boyz. 

 

As for the models I currently have, full list in the spoiler below. 

 

Watch Master

Watch Captain, TH+SB and magnetized jump pack

Artemis

Librarian

Chaplain, magnetized jump pack

Veterans
3x Boltgun
2x Boltgun + power sword
1x Boltgun + storm shield
1x Combi-melta
2x Shotgun
2x Frag cannon
2x Stalker
2x Heavy bolder
2x Missile launcher
1x Power sword + storm shield

Bikers
3x power swords

Vanguard Veterans
2x Bolt pistol + chainsword
2x Storm shield + chainsword
1x Thunder hammer + plasma pistol

 

VenDread, fully magnetized

Razorback, TAC or TLC

Corvus, fully magnetized

[zero88]

If I were you, I'd keep just the one unit in the Corvus, then beacon them out after they nuke whatever mob they were going after. With your models I think I would do something like this

 

Watch master

Second HQ of your choice

 

Veterans 1: 2 Heavy Bolters, 2 Stalkers, 1 Missile Launcher

 

Veterans 2 (Razorback): Combi melta, Bolter shield, Bolters

 

Veterans 3 (Corvus): 2 Frag, 2 Shotgun, whatever other Storm Shields and Bolters you can fit, and one VV

 

Corvus with Assault Cannon, Store strike, auspex and hurricane Bolter

 

Razorback with Assault Cannons

 

..that's just a rough idea off the top of my head, it's probably around 1000. Let us know how it goes!

[vigitant]

Librarians are an amazing choice, especially against orcs...

Good shooting with a SB, decent melee, jump pack for mobility.
Smite lets you dink a few wounds off something scary, and is never bad.  or potentially get something out of melee lockdown.  Its embarrassing when a corvus or dreadnought cant shoot because theres 1 orc left in melee.
Null Zone isnt as useful against orcs, sure.
But might of heroes can make our Watchmasters, Librarians, and Captains much more potent, which is often needed for them to mix with orcs on the countercharge.  Or defensively to bump a dreadnought to T8.

Psychic fortress is great against weird boys.  a high roll on an orc smite kills most of one of our expensive KT's.

Remember that you choose powers at the table.  I have yet to play a game where the librarian doesnt have 2 useful powers to take.  And the ability to Deny should never be discounted.

You dont want to be in combat against orcs.  But they most definitely DO want to be in combat with you.  And unless their army is badly made or led, they will.  Work to minimize the damage when they do, use their need to mix in melee against them.  Orcs are melee powerhouses, sure, but supported by HQ units our units can wipe smaller mobs on the charge.  Look for opportunities to shoot the mid-range mobs down, and use your charge to kill a half-or-less-strength mob thats almost to you.  Defeat in detail.

 

We are paying for a statline with 3 attacks base(i usually count the free chainsword as a default option.  you can pay more point for less attacks, but increase their potency by varying degrees).
We are paying for the statline.  look for opportunities to use it while mitigating enemy response.

[Lemondish]

Librarians are an amazing choice, especially against orcs...

 

Good shooting with a SB, decent melee, jump pack for mobility.

Smite lets you dink a few wounds off something scary, and is never bad. or potentially get something out of melee lockdown. Its embarrassing when a corvus or dreadnought cant shoot because theres 1 orc left in melee.

Null Zone isnt as useful against orcs, sure.

But might of heroes can make our Watchmasters, Librarians, and Captains much more potent, which is often needed for them to mix with orcs on the countercharge. Or defensively to bump a dreadnought to T8.

Psychic fortress is great against weird boys. a high roll on an orc smite kills most of one of our expensive KT's.

Remember that you choose powers at the table. I have yet to play a game where the librarian doesnt have 2 useful powers to take. And the ability to Deny should never be discounted.

 

You dont want to be in combat against orcs. But they most definitely DO want to be in combat with you. And unless their army is badly made or led, they will. Work to minimize the damage when they do, use their need to mix in melee against them. Orcs are melee powerhouses, sure, but supported by HQ units our units can wipe smaller mobs on the charge. Look for opportunities to shoot the mid-range mobs down, and use your charge to kill a half-or-less-strength mob thats almost to you. Defeat in detail.

 

We are paying for a statline with 3 attacks base(i usually count the free chainsword as a default option. you can pay more point for less attacks, but increase their potency by varying degrees).

We are paying for the statline. look for opportunities to use it while mitigating enemy response.

Do not forget Psychic Scourge. Orks have low LD values with most sitting at 6 if I'm not mistaken, so even if they roll a 6 on the power's roll off, you just need to roll 3+ to cause a wound. More often than not, you'll be causing d3 mortal wounds, and unlike smite it's targetable and doesn't preclude you from also smiting that same turn.

 

Nevermind, apparently Orks are immune to morale. TIL

[spacewatch]

@vigitant

Could not agree more how Librarian is used effectively against Orcs. Also Smite+Might of Heroes+TH-Captain is very handy against Orc's elite melee units.

 

@Lemondish

Remember Orc's Mob Rule so unit LD == number of models in Mob. Nearby units can also use that same LD (not vehicles, flyers). Affects Scourge.

 

 

Big Mobs also give them other goodies. For example Weirdboys get +1 for every 10 models in nearby Mob in their psychic tests. Helps them to manifest psychic powers.

 

So one need to think carefully where to aim those SIA shots. I mean that even at 1k list there may be 80 infantry models + several psykers Da Jumping them in your face + BW carrying bunch of Power Claw models. Also remember they have strategem that lets them combine infantry units of similar type (=after devastating SIA shooting small Mob is suddenly big again).

[Lemondish]

Really wish I had an Ork player near me. They seem crazy fun to play against.

[spacewatch]

Really wish I had an Ork player near me. They seem crazy fun to play against.

 

Yep, it's been fun to play against them. One day my friend brings 6 vehicles full of deadly melee experts and you ask yourself why did you leave second TLC-VenDread home ...and couple of Power Swords would also have been nice to have. Next time you take two TLC-VenDreads and some Combi-meltas and x10 Storm bolters and think you are ready for just about anything but after deployment you find yourself staring enemy's 150 infantry models and 9 psykers on the other side of the table, whaaat

 

Nowdays I understand I've been very lucky because I have learned this game by playing against Orcs and AM (IG). At first my friend put me against easy lists and then he started to vary between massed infantry no terrain, massed vehicles/heavies, ... massed psykers and lots of terrain. Nowdays games are more balanced but we sometimes have games with intentionally unbalanced armies. For example my 1.5k/1.75k pts against his 2k pts or my 2k against his 2k but I leave lascannons and Frag Cannons or something else home or enemy can draw extra two objective cards or re-roll 5 dice every turn or something else ...not because I'm better player but because I'm not. So its having fun combined to continuous learning what you can do when resources are limited which is practically the case in every game after first two rounds. All this has impoved my tactics a lot and it's been possible because of Orcs and how versatile I think they are. I'm waiting their codex to drop as eagerly as my friend does

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have been using Smite and psychic scourge. I use Tigurius when I play smurfs so I’m not sure if a regular Librarian can cast twice the same phase but if yes it can do some work.

[Lemondish]

I have been using Smite and psychic scourge. I use Tigurius when I play smurfs so I’m not sure if a regular Librarian can cast twice the same phase but if yes it can do some work.

I love Scourge, but it looks like it's not very useful against Orks sadly. Regular Librarians can cast two spells, it's just that Tigurius is special in that he knows 3 from the discipline instead of just two (plus smite).

[Ceranidian]

So my opponent canceled so no xeno-hunting for me today (boo! ). Still got loads of great advice for next time though, so thanks a lot for that!

 

zero88 – That's an interesting list, I really like it. I suppose I sort of viewed transports as a "tax" and that it would be sub-optimal to not maximize the available spots. But I guess if you view them as armored guns it becomes a lot more feasible to run them like you suggest. Still new to the whole 40k-thing, learn something new everyday!

[Lemondish]

So my opponent canceled so no xeno-hunting for me today (boo! ). Still got loads of great advice for next time though, so thanks a lot for that!

 

zero88 – That's an interesting list, I really like it. I suppose I sort of viewed transports as a "tax" and that it would be sub-optimal to not maximize the available spots. But I guess if you view them as armored guns it becomes a lot more feasible to run them like you suggest. Still new to the whole 40k-thing, learn something new everyday!

 

Armoured guns is how I've started seeing them. I have a list right now I'm working on with 3 Razorbacks carrying combi-melta squads. The squads sit at 201 points right now with a variety of upgrades, and the cost of the TAC Razorback at 116 points with a storm bolter isn't so much a tax - instead it represents adding 10 more wounds at T7 (which amounts to 170 points in marine bodies alone, albeit at T4) alongside a boatload of str 6 shooting where the only real comparable is an average roll for shots on a frag cannon. If the only thing the transport does is give my squads an extra 3'' of movement at the start of the game before going off and blasting something else, they're still valuable. The fact they can eat overwatch if I need my vets to jump into combat with a shooty unit to protect from retaliation is just icing, along with the LoS blocking potential, the protection, the mobility, and the ability to deploy faster than most other armies. Lots of icing. The cake is 90% icing at this point. 

[vigitant]

So my opponent canceled so no xeno-hunting for me today (boo! ). Still got loads of great advice for next time though, so thanks a lot for that!

 

zero88 – That's an interesting list, I really like it. I suppose I sort of viewed transports as a "tax" and that it would be sub-optimal to not maximize the available spots. But I guess if you view them as armored guns it becomes a lot more feasible to run them like you suggest. Still new to the whole 40k-thing, learn something new everyday!

In general, I've found a good rule of thumb for transports is this:

If the transport can't justify it's points running empty, it likely isn't worth taking.

 

Transports are too expensive this edition to take just to get dudes in place.  Adding almost 100pts to a unit for deep strike and a storm bolter, for instance, often means you'd be better off spending less or the same points for a different unit.

Assbacks and Lasbacks have decent shooting on decent statlines for decent points.  Putting marines inside is a happy bonus.

The Corvus is often simply overpriced as a gunship without PotMS. 

Transport capacity is not a straight benefit.  Yes, your dudes get some protection and mobility.  They also often cant shoot/charge, and risk losing 1/6th of their models if the transport gets taken down.

 

If your transport is simply a tax, get a better transport.  Assbacks, Lasbacks are decent.  The new Termite stats are crazy.  I've considered running them as distraction carnifexes, empty.  Might be some other decent forgeworld stuff that i havent looked into yet.

[Ceranidian]

So, got a game booked for this Sunday, 1250pts vs Tyranids. Very happy to finally get to purge some filthy xenos! Thinking of bringing the following:

 

Watch Master

Librarian

5 Vets, 4x bolter, 1x combi-melta

6 vets, 2x shotgun, 2x frag, 1x bolter/SS, 1x bolter/xenophase + 1 VV

6 vets, 2x stalker, 2x HB, 2x ML

Corvus, TAC and Stormstrike missiles

Razorback, TAC, SB and HK missile

VenDread, TLC and fist

Is the Librarian useful vs Nids? If I switch to Blackstar rockets on the Corvus I could replace him with a Jump Captain. 

 

Anything else to keep in mind when fighting Tyranids?

[Vel'Cona]

Is the Librarian useful vs Nids? If I switch to Blackstar rockets on the Corvus I could replace him with a Jump Captain.

 

They tend to like spamming powers of their own, so DtW will likely come into play.  If you're willing to gamble on Null Zone that might be a good trick, OFC assuming it works.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Don’t forget the strat that lets you shoot at synapse creatures... you can peg broodlords and malenthropes plus I believe there’s a relic that gives ignore cover.

[MadEdric]

Don’t forget the strat that lets you shoot at synapse creatures... you can peg broodlords and malenthropes plus I believe there’s a relic that gives ignore cover.

Warlord power. Can pick one unit a turn to ignore cover on. 

[vigitant]

SIA shots are your friend against 'nids.  We can wound anything they bring on a 2+.  Oddly enough, against 'nids our bolters become the tank killing weapons, and our S6 shots are better spent murdering infantry.

The librarian is super useful against nids.  Gives a deny.  Psychic fortress is good.  They will have psykers.
I'd think Might of Heroes/Psychic fortress would be your best picks.
I also think the blackstar rockets are going to give more mileage than stormstrike.  Nids are one of the few armies we dont really need AT against.  They have no vehicles.

[Ceranidian]

Great success, first win versus the 'nids. Woo!

 

He brought Broodlord, Flyrant, 2x12 Genestealers, 30 Termagants, 3 Hive Guard and 3 Carnifexes. First time playing Maelstrom missions for me as well, enjoyed it. 

 

Honestly I think my opponent didn't really play optimally (he hadn't played for very long either), but on the other hand I think I played it quite well. Took my time thinking through movement and measuring distances – something my opponent did not to his detriment – and made sure to take out the big bugs asap.

The VenDread did work and took out one Carnifex with shooting turn one before charging and nearly killing another in melee turn two. Razorback was surprisingly effective as sort of a distraction Carnifex (how ironic) and blocked off one flank surviving a surprising amount of melee. Frag cannons did most of the heavy lifting and torched infantry left and right after jumping out the Corvus. His big messup was charging my shotgun/frag squad with his termagants (why I'm not sure, he knew about the auto hits and I had a VV anyways to fall back and shoot). 27 charged, 4 made it in.

We messed up a few rules (the big one being letting flyers hold objectives) and I forgot my Lord of Hidden Knowledge almost all game (the 8 CP was still super helpful though). To be fair I rolled well in some crucial moments and he had one or two spectacular failures (that's the way it goes when you don't bring your own dice and borrow mine instead  ). 

 

I'm a bit on the fence about the Corvus. It's quite expensive for a delivery mechanism with a few ok-ish guns on top, but on the other hand it drops frag cannons in auto hit range (which deep striking does not) and that has proved very useful. Also contributes some decent dakka. I'll keep using it for now since I don't have anything to replace it with, but I'm unsure if it will make the cut once I have more options. Maybe another Razorback or two would be in order. 

 

Anyways, just wanted to share my success and thank you all for your good advice  Purge the xenos, for the Emperor!

[Lemondish]

Great work!

 

I imagine he was charging that unit as a last ditch effort to lock them down in melee to silence it.

 

I really wish the Corvus was a bit better - PotMS would make me strongly consider it, but right now I recommend the Razorback more often as an armoured gun and transport platform. Man do I wish Land Raiders were better...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"27 charged, 4 made it in."

 

Wow that’s a lot of bug juice !!!

 

Great job !

[Vel'Cona]

Sounds like a great game overall, Ceranidian!  I look forward to seeing how your lessons learned impact your listbuilding going forward :)

 

I really wish the Corvus was a bit better - PotMS would make me strongly consider it, but right now I recommend the Razorback more often as an armoured gun and transport platform. Man do I wish Land Raiders were better...

 

It's a shame on both counts.  GW missed out on a genuine opportunity to make the Corvus worthwhile via PotMS alone, and it wouldn't have ousted the C: SM Stormraven since the latter still has unique Dreadnought capacity and a different weapons loadout.  As is, neither are particularly useful but the Corvus is just a waste of points for what it does.  As for Land Raiders, it's definitely a sad situation there since 8th edition was supposed to "fix" large vehicle issues, but now that the dust has truly settled there is a shortlist of them that really matter and the Land Raider typically comes up short.

[Lemondish]

Sounds like a great game overall, Ceranidian!  I look forward to seeing how your lessons learned impact your listbuilding going forward

 

I really wish the Corvus was a bit better - PotMS would make me strongly consider it, but right now I recommend the Razorback more often as an armoured gun and transport platform. Man do I wish Land Raiders were better...

 

It's a shame on both counts.  GW missed out on a genuine opportunity to make the Corvus worthwhile via PotMS alone, and it wouldn't have ousted the C: SM Stormraven since the latter still has unique Dreadnought capacity and a different weapons loadout.  As is, neither are particularly useful but the Corvus is just a waste of points for what it does.  As for Land Raiders, it's definitely a sad situation there since 8th edition was supposed to "fix" large vehicle issues, but now that the dust has truly settled there is a shortlist of them that really matter and the Land Raider typically comes up short.

 

Cost is obviously a factor - after all, there's a points cost for both that would make them worthwhile units even with their current limitations. I look to the Razorback as a successful example - it manages to balance being a gun platform and a transport, and even with those roles kind of competing for attention and being mutually exclusive a lot of the time its cost means it isn't a major loss when it can't fulfill one or the other every turn. 

 

The Corvus needs something more than just being a slightly different Stormraven, though. Its bombs special rule is...lackluster. The one thing that the Corvus should have received is a rule that only a single Imperium flying transport has access to, and one that they should have been a bit more keen to spread around - Grav Chute Deployment from the Valkyrie. Alongside PotMS, being able to disembark at any point along its movement would have been exactly what would make the Corvus exactly the kind of flavourful tool a special ops style space marine force would rely on. 

 

But alas, I've steered this well off topic for too long now haha

 

I can't wait to hear more about your games Ceranidian!

[zero88]

Nice! What is the list you ended up taking? The Corvus definitely isn't a winner in the gunship category.. the rapid response/mobility is really what makes it useful. It's definitely overpriced in it's current form, but not so much that it's crippling.

[anarchistscourge]

I think I may be the only person that likes the Corvus. First off the model is awesome but more importantly it protects my killteams and drops them off in frag cannon range something that the teleportarium can’t do. Also I can take vanguard vets which are always in my frag squads, which I can’t do in razorbacks.

Completely agree it really needs potms and the grab chute rule would be amazing. You can see in the artwork that’s how marines deploy, on the move

[Ceranidian]

Nice! What is the list you ended up taking? The Corvus definitely isn't a winner in the gunship category.. the rapid response/mobility is really what makes it useful. It's definitely overpriced in it's current form, but not so much that it's crippling.

 

I ended up going with the following:

 

Watch Master

Librarian

VenDread, TLC+fist

6 Veterans, 2x frag, 2x shotgun, 1x bolter/SS, 1x bolter/power sword + 1 Vanguard veteran

6 Veterans, 2x stalker, 2x HB, 2x ML

5 Veterans, 3x bolter, 1x bolter/power sword, 1x melta

TAC Razorback

TAC Corvus

 

5 man squad with Librarian in the Razorback, frag squad and WM in the Corvus. Third squad and VenDread in the back plinking away at stuff. 

 

I'll probably bring a similar list next time so I can try it out against different competition and see how it does and what needs tweaking. 

 

And Lemondish don't worry about the Corvus discussion being "off-topic", it's very helpful to get your thoughts on models and why they do/don't work 

 

 

I'll definitely keep the thread updated as I play more! Right now the heat is pretty oppressive so it's hard to find the energy to get out to the gamestore, but I'll try to get a game or two in over the weekend.