Looking for advice after first game

[vigitant]

I think I may be the only person that likes the Corvus. First off the model is awesome but more importantly it protects my killteams and drops them off in frag cannon range something that the teleportarium can’t do. Also I can take vanguard vets which are always in my frag squads, which I can’t do in razorbacks.

Completely agree it really needs potms and the grab chute rule would be amazing. You can see in the artwork that’s how marines deploy, on the move

Frag cannon range.  I've found that against competent opponents your either far enough back for them to move out of range, or close enough for them to surround your bird, and either destroy it, or simply let it sit and delay disembarkation for a turn.

Hell, I wrecked a GK army that way, using my IG contingent, DW bikes, and intergressor KT to delay their disembarkation for a turn, thus allowing defeat in detail.

[Lemondish]

 

 

Nice! What is the list you ended up taking? The Corvus definitely isn't a winner in the gunship category.. the rapid response/mobility is really what makes it useful. It's definitely overpriced in it's current form, but not so much that it's crippling.

I ended up going with the following:

 

Watch Master

Librarian

VenDread, TLC+fist

6 Veterans, 2x frag, 2x shotgun, 1x bolter/SS, 1x bolter/power sword + 1 Vanguard veteran

6 Veterans, 2x stalker, 2x HB, 2x ML

5 Veterans, 3x bolter, 1x bolter/power sword, 1x melta

TAC Razorback

TAC Corvus

 

5 man squad with Librarian in the Razorback, frag squad and WM in the Corvus. Third squad and VenDread in the back plinking away at stuff.

 

I'll probably bring a similar list next time so I can try it out against different competition and see how it does and what needs tweaking.

 

And Lemondish don't worry about the Corvus discussion being "off-topic", it's very helpful to get your thoughts on models and why they do/don't work

 

 

I'll definitely keep the thread updated as I play more! Right now the heat is pretty oppressive so it's hard to find the energy to get out to the gamestore, but I'll try to get a game or two in over the weekend.

Cheers!

 

Though a word of caution for any analysis I and other more competitive minded tournament players provide - don't take what mathhammer or tournie players say as the final word. Local metas are unique for one, but most importantly 8th has been pretty successful for balance all things considered. A Corvus may not be the best, most optimized unit in the codex, but it isn't absolutely horrible and if you're finding success and love the model, by all means, run it. When I introduce new players to the hobby and game, I always tell them to just play their dudes. You'll often find mastering the game's rules with the models you really like will have a greater impact on your success than just building an ultra competitive netlist.

[anarchistscourge]

 

I think I may be the only person that likes the Corvus. First off the model is awesome but more importantly it protects my killteams and drops them off in frag cannon range something that the teleportarium can’t do. Also I can take vanguard vets which are always in my frag squads, which I can’t do in razorbacks.

Completely agree it really needs potms and the grab chute rule would be amazing. You can see in the artwork that’s how marines deploy, on the move

Frag cannon range.  I've found that against competent opponents your either far enough back for them to move out of range, or close enough for them to surround your bird, and either destroy it, or simply let it sit and delay disembarkation for a turn.

Hell, I wrecked a GK army that way, using my IG contingent, DW bikes, and intergressor KT to delay their disembarkation for a turn, thus allowing defeat in detail.

 

You assume the opponents I face are competent :) Ive never had the corvus be surrounded before the team inside gets out. Im very wary of them doing that so make sure it doesnt go in if there is that chance, generally whittle units down to the point they cant do that 

[spacewatch]

I think I may be the only person that likes the Corvus. First off the model is awesome but more importantly it protects my killteams and drops them off in frag cannon range something that the teleportarium can’t do. Also I can take vanguard vets which are always in my frag squads, which I can’t do in razorbacks.

Completely agree it really needs potms and the grab chute rule would be amazing. You can see in the artwork that’s how marines deploy, on the move

 

Not to "worry", you are not the only person who likes Corvus   It's a beautiful model and I have used it a lot same way as you (transport for WM, Libby and Termie enhanced Frag squad). Just recently I dropped Corvus from my army to give room for some other units but now I have mixed feelings how wise choise that was. There's just so much more you can do with it that you cannot do with Razorbacks. It is also faster, you can operate behind enemy lines T1 with it, it has more versatile transport capability and it is almost as efficient as two dakka Razorbacks and same with durability except that it is more durable against flyers (have done my math). Yes, it has weaknesses too but it is ok when from the beginning you use it as fast transport with some shooting abilities or as distraction unit for turn or two. I also like how you can save two teleportarium CP:s for something else since you can drop WM, Libby and two squads from Corvus and then beacon and teleport another two squads in and all this behind enemy lines T2! So its the tactical flexibility overall why I like Corvus. 

[Drizzt79]

 

I think I may be the only person that likes the Corvus. First off the model is awesome but more importantly it protects my killteams and drops them off in frag cannon range something that the teleportarium can’t do. Also I can take vanguard vets which are always in my frag squads, which I can’t do in razorbacks.

Completely agree it really needs potms and the grab chute rule would be amazing. You can see in the artwork that’s how marines deploy, on the move

 

 

Not to "worry", you are not the only person who likes Corvus ;)  It's a beautiful model and I have used it a lot same way as you (transport for WM, Libby and Termie enhanced Frag squad). Just recently I dropped Corvus from my army to give room for some other units but now I have mixed feelings how wise choise that was. There's just so much more you can do with it that you cannot do with Razorbacks. It is also faster, you can operate behind enemy lines T1 with it, it has more versatile transport capability and it is almost as efficient as two dakka Razorbacks and same with durability except that it is more durable against flyers (have done my math). Yes, it has weaknesses too but it is ok when from the beginning you use it as fast transport with some shooting abilities or as distraction unit for turn or two. I also like how you can save two teleportarium CP:s for something else since you can drop WM, Libby and two squads from Corvus and then beacon and teleport another two squads in and all this behind enemy lines T2! So its the tactical flexibility overall why I like Corvus. 

I agree it is a fantastic model, but I took it out of my lists mostly because of the lack of POTMS

Then it is not survivable enough....you should use 2 or 3 to make them survive long enough to ne useful, but for 251pts each it is just not worth

 

And I’m really sorry about that

 

To be useful gw should reduce points cost to 200 fully kitted, or keep the actual cost but add the potms IMHO

[spacewatch]

 

 

...

 

...

I agree it is a fantastic model, but I took it out of my lists mostly because of the lack of POTMS

Then it is not survivable enough....you should use 2 or 3 to make them survive long enough to ne useful, but for 251pts each it is just not worth

 

And I’m really sorry about that

 

To be useful gw should reduce points cost to 200 fully kitted, or keep the actual cost but add the potms IMHO

 

 

I understand and this has been discussed earlier in another thread but I still think that while PotMS would help it is not something that transforms Corvus the transport to Corvus the gunship. For example lets shoot Marines with everyghing dakka Corvus has that's HB, AC and rockets. On average without PotMS you anhillate 21 Marines over the course of the 5 turn game. With PotMS you kill 26. Ok, let's shoot Rhino, without PotMS Corvus can do 13 wounds so one Rhino goes down, with PotMS it does 15 wounds so one Rhono burned. (For reference two dakka Razorbacks kill 24 Marines and do 14 wounds when shooting Rhino so again just one Rhino popped.) For survivability let's shoot Corvus with Plasma Incinerators. After 22 shots Corvus goes down and yes you need two more to destroy two Razorbacks.

 

I agree that Corvus definitely is worse than for example two Razorbacks but, I dunno, difference is rather small vs. tactical flexibility it enables. I compared Corvus to Razorbacks because I see Corvus as transport with some guns, not as gunship. And of course I'm looking all this from my local meta point of view where dakka Corvus is rather good shooting Orcs and IG which in the end have quite limited chances to shoot it down in just couple of turns. In some other tables Corvus probably is just paper airplane.

[Lemondish]

 

 

I think I may be the only person that likes the Corvus. First off the model is awesome but more importantly it protects my killteams and drops them off in frag cannon range something that the teleportarium can’t do. Also I can take vanguard vets which are always in my frag squads, which I can’t do in razorbacks.

Completely agree it really needs potms and the grab chute rule would be amazing. You can see in the artwork that’s how marines deploy, on the move

 

Not to "worry", you are not the only person who likes Corvus   It's a beautiful model and I have used it a lot same way as you (transport for WM, Libby and Termie enhanced Frag squad). Just recently I dropped Corvus from my army to give room for some other units but now I have mixed feelings how wise choise that was. There's just so much more you can do with it that you cannot do with Razorbacks. It is also faster, you can operate behind enemy lines T1 with it, it has more versatile transport capability and it is almost as efficient as two dakka Razorbacks and same with durability except that it is more durable against flyers (have done my math). Yes, it has weaknesses too but it is ok when from the beginning you use it as fast transport with some shooting abilities or as distraction unit for turn or two. I also like how you can save two teleportarium CP:s for something else since you can drop WM, Libby and two squads from Corvus and then beacon and teleport another two squads in and all this behind enemy lines T2! So its the tactical flexibility overall why I like Corvus. 

I agree it is a fantastic model, but I took it out of my lists mostly because of the lack of POTMS

Then it is not survivable enough....you should use 2 or 3 to make them survive long enough to ne useful, but for 251pts each it is just not worth

 

And I’m really sorry about that

 

To be useful gw should reduce points cost to 200 fully kitted, or keep the actual cost but add the potms IMHO

 

 

I think they need to go a step further than just PotMS. The Corvus needs to be more. I've said before I think it needs both PotMS and the Valkyrie's Grav Chute Insertion rule to make it not only fit its points, but more importantly to give it a unique role that isn't just about being a weaker (but cooler looking) Stormraven. I'd love to tug on the ear of a GW writer to ram home how cool I think this could be and why it makes sense following the beta tactical reserve rules and 3 unit datasheet limit, but alas the best I can do is the feedback email that may or may not ever be read

 

I was discussing this with some friends last night over some beers - we talked through a lot of the games we had prior to the beta rules hitting (and subsequently being adopted locally almost immediately). Deathwatch lived its identity perfectly at the codex launch - a low model count, elite force that was focused on making an immediate impact in the first turn by applying overwhelming firepower right where it was needed most. They'd never win a battle of attrition, but the key strategy here was if you could drop in the right spot, target the right threats, and make the right moves with your supporting elements, you could even the playing field.

 

The Teleportarium made that work. Now you have to wait until turn 2 for that initial strike, whether you're in a transport or stuck in the Teleportarium. At least with an armed transport you're not giving up quite as much offensive output in your first turn. The Corvus helps fill the "quickly get where needed" role that was so central to the DW identity, so I concede that maybe I'm just being a bit too hard on it from a perspective that may be coloured a bit by how much more worthless it was prior to the beta rules. While PotMS will make it a better choice for me than the Razorback, DW would still need more help to reach its initial identity again. The Corvus can do that, but I feel that needs to come primarily from it being a transport rather than it being a gunship. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I feel like armor in general is a liability for SM. That said if it is working for you then keep running with it.

[Ceranidian]

Next game coming up; 1250pts vs Tau! Planning to bring pretty much the same list as last time. Any tips for stomping the space-commies?

[Lemondish]

Next game coming up; 1250pts vs Tau! Planning to bring pretty much the same list as last time. Any tips for stomping the space-commies?

 

Any clue on what you're likely to be facing? 

[Ceranidian]

 

Next game coming up; 1250pts vs Tau! Planning to bring pretty much the same list as last time. Any tips for stomping the space-commies?

 

Any clue on what you're likely to be facing? 

 

 

 

Nope, no idea other than them being Tau.  

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Target drones as much as possible first.

[Ceranidian]

Target drones as much as possible first.

 

Interesting, why is this? If you don't mind I think I might need a "Drones for Dummies"-crash course, Tau is one of the armies I know the least about in general. 

[Qui-Gon]

All Drones will get a chance to intercept any wound roll you land on any suit or infantry model. Even a D6 damage wound is only a single mortal wound to any drone. So kill the drones before they can soak the heavier stuff you pour into targets. Especially shield drones since they have a 5+ negate wound save.

There is a Drone that increases the range of all pulse weapons by 6". With the Borkan Sept, that's a 42" maximum range on their pulse rifles and a 21" rapid fire. Cut it down to size by killing the drone and you won't have many problems.

 

Kill them marker drones too. Deny Tau their markerlights and they suffer a fair tick.

[Lemondish]

I actually disagree with targeting drones as DW. It's the proper approach for every marine army outside of DW, though.

 

Drones have a rule called Saviour Protocols that can take wounds for Infantry and Battlesuits of the same Sept. It allows one to allocate a wound to a nearby drone as if it were part of the target unit on a 2+ roll, but that drone unit takes a mortal wound instead of the normal damage. Shield drones and Guardian drones have a 5+ fnp they can roll to stay alive, but other drones just explode. For reference, shield drones have an invuln save of 4+ alongside that 5+ fnp, but since they're taking a mortal wound when this happens you bypass their armour save and force a single 5+ roll. 

 

Focusing on drones early with anti-infantry, low AP weapons means you can remove saviour protocols as a consideration so the target in question doesn't just shrug high damage weaponry off onto a drone. But by focusing on the drones, you'll spend a lot of time blasting through a 4+ invuln AND a 5+ fnp. For most armies, especially marine ones, the best way to proceed is to target the drones first because they'll be easier to wound with your numerous anti infantry firepower and the more wounds that get through the better the chance at killing them - even through the invuln and fnp.

 

But for DW, I'd say pump your fire into the bigger target instead for a lot of suits - the Riptide being a likely candidate here. That's because with Hellfire rounds you're going to be wounding it on 2s anyway (because kraken or vengeance won't help against their invuln) and if the opponent wants to throw those wounds off onto the drones, they can feel free to do so and they'll only survive on one 5+ roll instead of getting both. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you don't shoot the drones the opponent will allocate wounds to the drones anyways... so you still end up shooting them.

 

Another good tactic is to split fire an equal number of shots into drones close by the desired target and the desired target (e.g., Riptide or Commander).

 

T'au can tank each wound onto a drone on the roll of a 2+ so its pretty much a sure thing. These tactics have worked great for me and I am undefeated versus T'au this edition.

[Lemondish]

If you don't shoot the drones the opponent will allocate wounds to the drones anyways... so you still end up shooting them.

 

Another good tactic is to split fire an equal number of shots into drones close by the desired target and the desired target (e.g., Riptide or Commander).

 

T'au can tank each wound onto a drone on the roll of a 2+ so its pretty much a sure thing. These tactics have worked great for me and I am undefeated versus T'au this edition.

 

I respectfully disagree. 

 

Follow along. What I'm saying here is that you want to damage a suit, right? But it has drones near it (womp womp) - so you have two options...

1. You shoot the drones. Being DW you'll wound on 2s and they'll get a 4+ invuln AND a 5+ FNP - two chances at surviving and you still haven't even had a chance to touch the suit you want to kill.
2. You shoot the Riptide instead, you wound on 2s and they'll either pass it on to the drone for a 5+ FNP ONLY, plus there's a ~17% chance it slides through to the suit instead. You have a much greater chance to kill the drone this way. 

I used to use the tactics you used when I played codex marines because the math supported it - easier to wound the drones and get through two saves than it was to try and wound the high toughness suit. DW change things up because you don't care about how tough the suit is now. For Deathwatch you'll have a much greater chance to get damage through on the suit, even with Saviour Protocols, if you just attack that suit because you're skipping over the 4+ invuln.  

 

FWIW, I too am undefeated against T'au this edition for both my Codex Marines and as Deathwatch, though I have no clue why that would be relevant. 

[Delta.Skies]

I actually disagree with targeting drones as DW. It's the proper approach for every marine army outside of DW, though.

 

Drones have a rule called Saviour Protocols that can take wounds for Infantry and Battlesuits of the same Sept. It allows one to allocate a wound to a nearby drone as if it were part of the target unit on a 2+ roll, but that drone unit takes a mortal wound instead of the normal damage. Shield drones and Guardian drones have a 5+ fnp they can roll to stay alive, but other drones just explode. For reference, shield drones have an invuln save of 4+ alongside that 5+ fnp, but since they're taking a mortal wound when this happens you bypass their armour save and force a single 5+ roll. 

 

Focusing on drones early with anti-infantry, low AP weapons means you can remove saviour protocols as a consideration so the target in question doesn't just shrug high damage weaponry off onto a drone. But by focusing on the drones, you'll spend a lot of time blasting through a 4+ invuln AND a 5+ fnp. For most armies, especially marine ones, the best way to proceed is to target the drones first because they'll be easier to wound with your numerous anti infantry firepower and the more wounds that get through the better the chance at killing them - even through the invuln and fnp.

 

But for DW, I'd say pump your fire into the bigger target instead for a lot of suits - the Riptide being a likely candidate here. That's because with Hellfire rounds you're going to be wounding it on 2s anyway (because kraken or vengeance won't help against their invuln) and if the opponent wants to throw those wounds off onto the drones, they can feel free to do so and they'll only survive on one 5+ roll instead of getting both. 

Im learning as im reading but i have a question regarding this. this is pretty much in regards to non character / HQ battle suits right? Cause if he is a character and puts the drones in front of him, wouldnt you have to shoot the drones first before the battle suits?

[Lemondish]

 

I actually disagree with targeting drones as DW. It's the proper approach for every marine army outside of DW, though.

 

Drones have a rule called Saviour Protocols that can take wounds for Infantry and Battlesuits of the same Sept. It allows one to allocate a wound to a nearby drone as if it were part of the target unit on a 2+ roll, but that drone unit takes a mortal wound instead of the normal damage. Shield drones and Guardian drones have a 5+ fnp they can roll to stay alive, but other drones just explode. For reference, shield drones have an invuln save of 4+ alongside that 5+ fnp, but since they're taking a mortal wound when this happens you bypass their armour save and force a single 5+ roll. 

 

Focusing on drones early with anti-infantry, low AP weapons means you can remove saviour protocols as a consideration so the target in question doesn't just shrug high damage weaponry off onto a drone. But by focusing on the drones, you'll spend a lot of time blasting through a 4+ invuln AND a 5+ fnp. For most armies, especially marine ones, the best way to proceed is to target the drones first because they'll be easier to wound with your numerous anti infantry firepower and the more wounds that get through the better the chance at killing them - even through the invuln and fnp.

 

But for DW, I'd say pump your fire into the bigger target instead for a lot of suits - the Riptide being a likely candidate here. That's because with Hellfire rounds you're going to be wounding it on 2s anyway (because kraken or vengeance won't help against their invuln) and if the opponent wants to throw those wounds off onto the drones, they can feel free to do so and they'll only survive on one 5+ roll instead of getting both. 

Im learning as im reading but i have a question regarding this. this is pretty much in regards to non character / HQ battle suits right? Cause if he is a character and puts the drones in front of him, wouldnt you have to shoot the drones first before the battle suits?

 

 

Yes. The most common suits you'll likely see are the Riptide, the Broadside, and Coldstar Commanders (limit of 1 per detachment). Regular XV8 commanders are mostly competitive as well, though you'll probably see the Coldstar more often. Stealth suits and Ghostkeels are less common because they don't really pack much of an offensive punch, but they're difficult to hit, end up being pretty tough in general, and can camp an objective all day long if they have drone support. 

 

If he's using the drones to tank for his speedy commander rather than the big suits, you're going to have a much easier time. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"You shoot the Riptide instead, you wound on 2s and they'll either pass it on to the drone for a 5+ FNP ONLY, plus there's a ~17% chance it slides through to the suit instead. You have a much greater chance to kill the drone this way."

 

Okay I didn't catch that - smart thinking. /thumbsup

[Delta.Skies]

 

 

I actually disagree with targeting drones as DW. It's the proper approach for every marine army outside of DW, though.

 

Drones have a rule called Saviour Protocols that can take wounds for Infantry and Battlesuits of the same Sept. It allows one to allocate a wound to a nearby drone as if it were part of the target unit on a 2+ roll, but that drone unit takes a mortal wound instead of the normal damage. Shield drones and Guardian drones have a 5+ fnp they can roll to stay alive, but other drones just explode. For reference, shield drones have an invuln save of 4+ alongside that 5+ fnp, but since they're taking a mortal wound when this happens you bypass their armour save and force a single 5+ roll. 

 

Focusing on drones early with anti-infantry, low AP weapons means you can remove saviour protocols as a consideration so the target in question doesn't just shrug high damage weaponry off onto a drone. But by focusing on the drones, you'll spend a lot of time blasting through a 4+ invuln AND a 5+ fnp. For most armies, especially marine ones, the best way to proceed is to target the drones first because they'll be easier to wound with your numerous anti infantry firepower and the more wounds that get through the better the chance at killing them - even through the invuln and fnp.

 

But for DW, I'd say pump your fire into the bigger target instead for a lot of suits - the Riptide being a likely candidate here. That's because with Hellfire rounds you're going to be wounding it on 2s anyway (because kraken or vengeance won't help against their invuln) and if the opponent wants to throw those wounds off onto the drones, they can feel free to do so and they'll only survive on one 5+ roll instead of getting both. 

Im learning as im reading but i have a question regarding this. this is pretty much in regards to non character / HQ battle suits right? Cause if he is a character and puts the drones in front of him, wouldnt you have to shoot the drones first before the battle suits?

 

 

Yes. The most common suits you'll likely see are the Riptide, the Broadside, and Coldstar Commanders (limit of 1 per detachment). Regular XV8 commanders are mostly competitive as well, though you'll probably see the Coldstar more often. Stealth suits and Ghostkeels are less common because they don't really pack much of an offensive punch, but they're difficult to hit, end up being pretty tough in general, and can camp an objective all day long if they have drone support. 

 

If he's using the drones to tank for his speedy commander rather than the big suits, you're going to have a much easier time. 

 

 

I take the max 3 rule really helped battling the tau eh

[Lemondish]

I take the max 3 rule really helped battling the tau eh

They actually had a super weird precursor to that rule that is even more limiting. Their codex limits Commanders to 1 per detachment based on the keyword COMMANDER, not just max 3 data sheets per 2000 points.

 

Had they just been limited to Max 3 data sheets, you'd probably see no less than 9 Commander suits in every army surrounded by drones, just like they were in the index days.

[Ceranidian]

Huh, so the big honkin' battlesuits are not vehicles? You learn something new every day. What about non-SIA weapons (like AC or LC)? I guess I could just math it out myself, but if there are some simple guidelines people smarter than me have already figured out I'm happy to use those. 

 

Also, any good guidelines for efficient use of the Targeting Scramblers stratagem? Is it worth it? It seems quite obvious to blow it if they go all the way to 5 markerlights on an unit that they obviously wants to kill, but apart from that when is it best used?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Part of the use as a debuff is to get in your opponent's head and demoralize them.

[Lemondish]

Part of the use as a debuff is to get in your opponent's head and demoralize them.

100% true.