Which Chapter Tactics are the best?

[autek mor]

but at least in the deathguards case, GW has managed to combine fluff with effective rules and affordable units. the marine book is the complete opposite which is a shame when it contains around seven chapters.

[Ishagu]

Death Guard have chapter rules on top of their extra toughness and 5+ Disgusting resilience.

[Basteala]

It's less the fact that DG has a 5+ and more than IH got theirs nerfed to a 6+, where most of the time, the Loyalist and Chaos chapters have more or less mirrored abilities.

 

A 5+ isn't OP, but it's useful. A 6+ is too unreliable to be counted for much of anything.

[Panzer]

It's less the fact that DG has a 5+ and more than IH got theirs nerfed to a 6+, where most of the time, the Loyalist and Chaos chapters have more or less mirrored abilities.

 

A 5+ isn't OP, but it's useful. A 6+ is too unreliable to be counted for much of anything.

 

Yeah but the 5+ isn't even their Legion Trait so it's just a very common special rule that's included in those units cost. It's like "And They Shall Know No Fear", "Death To The False Emperor "or "Combat Squads" (which should be noted infront of the unit section as well considering how common it is if we're honest).

Their actual Legion Trait is "Inexorable Advance" which enables them to move and fire with heavy weapons without penalty, to advance and fire with assault weapons without penalty and to having their weapons rapid fire range increased to 18".

Is their "bundle" of almost army wide special rules stronger than the bundle Iron Warriors or other C:SM chapters get? Yes for sure. However comparing their Disgustingly Resilient rule with a Chapter Tactic is not quite correct.

[Flipl8]

Ah ok, Inexorable Advance clinches it. Death Guard clearly beat Iron Hands. They probably should, I guess. Still though, DG came on the heels of the Astartes codex, so it doesnt even qualify as power creep.

 

I'd like to see at least a 5+++ for Iron Hands characters, 6+++ for everyone else (maybe including vehicles). As a casual player, that's a solution I could get behind.

[Brother Crimson]

Yeah I don’t believe in such a thing as power creep in codex. Their power levels are just randomly done some work better than other. Later codex are not always better.

 

As far as chapter tactic goes, 6+ FNP is not really cutting it compared to -1 to hit roll from raven guard. Same happens in Eldar, when is the last time you saw Ulthwé craft world in favour of alaitoc?

[NiceGuyAdi]

The trouble of 6+++ is it’s less useful in the context of an army where your base units are expensive, discouraging infantry blobs. If Iron Hands had a plagebearer equivalent it would be a different kettle of fish.

 

Does it then make more sense to take Iron Hands as maxed units over MSU, so opponents have to dedicate proportionately more power to overkill a unit?

[Wargamer]

Yeah I don’t believe in such a thing as power creep in codex. Their power levels are just randomly done some work better than other. Later codex are not always better.

 

As far as chapter tactic goes, 6+ FNP is not really cutting it compared to -1 to hit roll from raven guard. Same happens in Eldar, when is the last time you saw Ulthwé craft world in favour of alaitoc?

Personally, I think the -1 to hit as an army trait was just too powerful. GW shouldn't have done it, but because it was initially given to Marines, and every other army was still on the Index, it wasn't obvious how broken that could be. When it got to Eldar, things became utterly ludicrous.

 

The trouble of 6+++ is it’s less useful in the context of an army where your base units are expensive, discouraging infantry blobs. If Iron Hands had a plagebearer equivalent it would be a different kettle of fish.

 

Does it then make more sense to take Iron Hands as maxed units over MSU, so opponents have to dedicate proportionately more power to overkill a unit?

Maybe we can find a way to make things more interesting for the Iron Hands then. Here's a proposed rewording of their Chapter Tactic:

 

The Flesh is Weak: Roll a dice each time an Iron Hands model with this tactic loses a wound, adding +1 to the roll if the model has the Character or Venerable Dreadnought keywords, or if the model is part of an Infantry unit which contained the maximum possible number of models at the beginning of the game. On a roll of 6 the damage is ignored and the model does not lose a wound.

 

This straight up gives a buff to our HQs (who have the most cybernetics) and our Venerable Dreadnoughts (to overcome the loss of stacking FNP), but it also rewards people who bring max-sized squads, something which isn't done nearly enough at the moment. Most importantly, the intent is that you can combat squad the unit and still have the 5+ FNP should you choose to do so.

[Captain Idaho]

Seems reasonable to me.

[Ishagu]

Still very weak.

 

Iron Hands should just have a 5+ Feel no pain or a 6+ and +1 toughness to infantry to represent their bionics.

 

Their vehicles should regain wounds on a 6+ to represent their skill with repair and quality of gear.

 

Remember guys, we're miles behind some of the more recebt books. We don't need a tiny boost, but a substantial one.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I still don't know why people say RG is the best - for example roughly 50% of the SftS is not doing anything for you. I would love to know why people like their CT so much.

[Ishagu]

The infiltration for offensive units and the negative modifier to hit their objective campers is strategically very good with the right list. I still think the chapter tactics need a boost all round. Vehicles need rules too.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

SftS only helps you if you go first right? Sure -1 to hit is good but sadly doesn't apply to vehicles.

[Slan Drakkos]

Salmanders have the best tactic IMO, followed by Raven Guard.

[Panzer]

SftS helps you only if you go first if you deploy your units super aggressively. It's not like infiltrating units are always suicide commandos lol

[Aegir_Einarsson]

SftS is good because you place your units when you see everything and even if you know that you are going first or second. It is huge from tactical point of view.

 

Same as the Necron C'tan power to relocate units. It is huge.

[Dracos]

I still don't know why people say RG is the best - for example roughly 50% of the SftS is not doing anything for you. I would love to know why people like their CT so much.

Probably a Primaris connection for the most part. It helps mitigate transport issues for the Primaris.

 

If it was the “best”!then the same would be said of Alpha Legion. Which while popular isn’t top table either. Still it synergism with Primaris is excellent. It’s not going to always be about getting in your opponents grill T1. Having a nice “last say” in deployment should help with mission objectives also. With a heavy lean on Scouts in existing lore it allows all kind of fluffy shenanigans

[Panzer]

 

If it was the “best”!then the same would be said of Alpha Legion. Which while popular isn’t top table either.

 

 

Well I don't know where you are but so far Alpha Legion is considered to be the best choice for a CSM army. ^^

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would say it is/was considered one of the best. :)

[autek mor]

Still very weak.

 

Iron Hands should just have a 5+ Feel no pain or a 6+ and +1 toughness to infantry to represent their bionics.

 

Their vehicles should regain wounds on a 6+ to represent their skill with repair and quality of gear.

 

Remember guys, we're miles behind some of the more recebt books. We don't need a tiny boost, but a substantial one.

 

plus marines across the board have arguably(some players of other armies still insist the balance is fine) been hit the hardest with nerfs, improved chapter tactics is a marginal fix.

 

[Ishagu]

Yeah I totally agree. The chapter tactics need a boost but the units need point reductions (in some cases the points need to be halved!) and rule updates.

[Dracos]

Just saying ... being best Chaos army and being a top table army via an Omni-Chaos build are two different things.