GK for Kill Team and non standard units for mid level play

[Capt. Mytre]

Yeah, we are confirmed to have only "Grey Knight" unit - it is the only unit entry in Grey Knight section in Contents. And there is no Psychic phase either. Nothing unexpected. 

 

EDIT: Psychic powers are noticed in Example Game, so there is still hope.

 

I didn't think there would be a phase for it, given that only two armies would be able to use it AFAIK. I'd wager the psychic powers will either be tied as abilities on each GK model or (more likely) some of the "stratagems" or w/e they are called with just be named and themed after the psychic powers.

 

Astral Aim could be good, like "A model can make a shot on any enemy model within range as if it was unobstructed", which I imagine would certainly be powerful, but I could also see something super unimaginative like "When targetting a model that is obstructed, add +1 to the roll", which is something basically every army has thus far.

[Matt_149]

Nope so grey knight, "gunner" and justicar are the only options on the datasheet. Haven't seen a good enough quality picture yet to show points but I'm sure that will appear in the next couple of days. In the old kill team GK were brutal, interceptors with power weapons and storm bolters moving 12" and shunting anywhere? Kind of glad that they aren't in this ATM as they were a bit op.

[Capt. Mytre]

Welp, Psychic Phase is confirmed: https://warhammer40000.com/kill-team/#killzone-fullwidth

 

Seems an odd inclusion when so few armies will be able to use it.

[Corvus Fortis]

Yes, Psychic Phase confirmed! Rules are mostly the same, but Smite replaced by Psybolt, which is range 12, value 5, 1 MW, d3 MW if 11+.

 

Tactics: Psybolt Ammo, Honor the Chapter, Psychic Channeling - the same as Codex Ones. Heed the Prognosticars - +1 to any saving throws and for one model (not only character).

 

We have basic GK, Gunners and Justicars. Special rules are the same, but RoB always deal d3 mortal wounds to daemons. No teleport strike.

 

No unique psychic powers - only psybolt. 

 

No changes for weapons stats.

 

Costs are the same for models, but standard GK is 1 point down. Incinerator and psilencer are 3 pts and psycannon is 2, everything else - 0 (including SB). Hammer is 2 and falchions are 1, other weapons are 0.

 

Doesn't look amazing considering most KT models are 1 wound, but in close quarters with number of cover GK certainly have chances.

 

Any thoughts on how will we do? 

[Capt. Mytre]

Yes, Psychic Phase confirmed! Rules are mostly the same, but Smite replaced by Psybolt, which is range 12, value 5, 1 MW, d3 MW if 11+.

 

Tactics: Psybolt Ammo, Honor the Chapter, Psychic Channeling - the same as Codex Ones. Heed the Prognosticars - +1 to any saving throws and for one model (not only character).

 

We have basic GK, Gunners and Justicars. Special rules are the same, but RoB always deal d3 mortal wounds to daemons. No teleport strike.

 

No unique psychic powers - only psybolt. 

 

No changes for weapons stats.

 

Costs are the same for models, but standard GK is 1 point down. Incinerator and psilencer are 3 pts and psycannon is 2, everything else - 0 (including SB). Hammer is 2 and falchions are 1, other weapons are 0.

 

Doesn't look amazing considering most KT models are 1 wound, but in close quarters with number of cover GK certainly have chances.

 

Any thoughts on how will we do? 

 

Do marines have multiple wounds? Can't see any other elite army beating us if they only have 1, you could potentially wipe them by turn 2 or 3 with MW alone. 20 man kill teams seem far harder to kill - especially given that everyone has the same "death save" mechanic, and it will basically be 5 wounds vs 20 wounds lol.

 

We can either have 5 basic GK marines with anything but fals/hammers (which I imagine might just be the go to, given that it gives you up to 5 mortal wounds per turn), or you go 4 of anything else with upgrades across the team. Don't know if those upgrades will really make up for the loss of 2/4 SB shots, 1 MW and an additional model.

[TheCastigator]

Is it even worth it to bring a big gun or incinerator? SBs should still put out enough to kill stuff through weight of fire.

[Panzer]

Is it even worth it to bring a big gun or incinerator? SBs should still put out enough to kill stuff through weight of fire.

 

That will depend on how the mechanics work for taking units out. If after removing the last wound there are additional rolls to make and if those get modified by strength and/or AP then non-Stormbolter options would make a lot of sense.

Oh also since there are apparently a lot more to-hit modificators in Kill Team than there are in 40k an automatically hitting weapon with multiple hits like Incinerator could be really strong!

[Corvus Fortis]

Stats are exactly the same as in WH40k - no changes here. And only 1 psyker  can be activated per psychic phase. Still, Psybolt is literally 1 model wounded per psychic phase which is awesome.

 

I looked through the rules, and here’s what I think:

 

GK leans towards a glass cannon build, but with some staying power. We must always be in cover – to be obscured from shooting and to have bonuses when determined if model is flesh-wounded or out of action (it is -1 when in cover). As other space marines, we ignore one flesh-wound penalty we have. Unlike in WH40k we don’t have relocation tricks, so our movement phase is nothing special. Morale phase is manageable, because high leadership and ATSKNF.  Psychic phase is very simple – 1 mortal wound to enemy model. Sometimes we will fail, but this is what command rerolls for. Only 12 range, but it is the range GK always want to be in.

 

Shooting phase is another deal. In original game, infantry killing was one of a few things GK could do right. Our weapons are:

 

Stormbolter – the best choice and one of the best weapons in the game, IMO. We want to be in 12” anyway because Range penalty. 4 shots will most likely flesh-wound any light-armored model or even heavy-armored with a bit of luck. On top of that – psybolt ammo costs only 1 CP and with new CP-generating mechanic (1 each battle round) we can utilize it every turn at will. So, SB is still our main weapon – others should be taken with special set-up in mind.

 

Incinerator – best replacement for SB. Cost 3 points but you probably will have spare anyway. It is assault, so run+charge for the bearer. It hits automatically, so no penalty for cover\flesh-wounds\morale. It is d6 hits s6 AP-1, so the target is very likely dead.  Strong overwatch is pleasant addition. The only downside is low range (not much lower than a SB, however) and that it will be a fire magnet. It can be used to our advantage to lure enemy fire from objective-holders or leader.IMO, it is worth 3 points it costs. And I almost decided to cut off 2 incinerators I had on strikes…

 

Psilencer – kinda meh. 24” range means it wants to be in 12” just like stormbolter. It is 2 more shots, of course, but at the cost of 3 points and power weapon. D3 damage is another advantage – if I got it right (still need confirmation though) if it strips last wound from a model, enemy makes d3 flesh-wound rolls instead of just 1. So more chances that psilencer will take model straight out of action. But Heavy means less so important mobility + additional to-hit penalties from range and cover. Psilencer has its place with proper set-up but not near as awesome as Incinerator or Stormbolter.

 

Psycannon – all problems of Psilencer, but less shots, more strength and AP-1. Stormbolter with Psybolt Ammo outperforms it in every occasion. Not worth it just like in main game.

 

Grenades – I cannot imagine situation where they can be better than stormbolter. Krak can be better on occasion against Plague Marine, but it is debatable.

So, just like in main game – stormbolter is our best friend, but incinerator can be strong and fun, while psilencer is situative.

 

In KT charging precedes shooting, so we must make a choice – to shoot or to fight. I’d chose Shooting in most cases. You must have a specialized fighter to outperform shooting in close combat. We still have only 1 attack with most weapons. 3+ is not too reliable and there are several ways of penalties to-hit too. Justicar has 2A but is it really worth it to throw the leader in dangerous battles where he can die by accident?

 

Our weapons are the same:

 

Hammer – if it hits, it kills - wound on 2+ almost everything, AP-3 and 3 damage straight. But -1 to-hit, penalties from cover, etc. make it a bit unreliable. With proper set-up it can be good against special targets, like Primaris, Tyranid Warriors or Death Guard. But it is not free, so should be used with an idea in mind.

Falchions – still the best choice for proper fighter. 2 attacks, AP-2, D3 are decent stats, but they have a weak spot – only s4. And there is no hammerhand to help here. Additionally, they are not free. So, if you are not making close combat specialist, consider free choices.

 

Stave – best thing to give a Knight you want to shoot with. S6 means 2+\3+ to-wound against most targets, ap-1 is better than in original, because nor 2+ save and 5++ into close combat on top of that. If something comes close to your gunner, Stave will grant him a bonus layer of protection.

 

Halberd and Sword – one gives more S, another more AP. There are less invulnerable saves in kill team, so sword is not as bad as in original game and will kill almost everything it wounds. Halberd is better against t4-5 enemies. Sword is overkill against sv5-6+ while halberd has no advantage over t3. Hobbywise there are better than stave, because you get only 1 stave per 5-man box.

 

In short, take falchions if you want to fight, hammer if you know how to use it or anything else if you want to shoot.

And now a little review of specializations and how we can use it. I don’t consider level 2+, because it is, according to rules, intended only for campaigns and not matched play. We may homerule it, so we can by level 2 specialist in matched play too, but for now I’ll keep it short.

 

Leader – trait: resourceful - +1 CP generated every battle round, tactics (1CP): lead by example – another model can fight in 3” from him in fight phase, just after Leader has fought. Tactics is situational, while trait is very important, if you want to spam Psybolt Ammo and have some command rerolls. I’d give Justicar Stave and keep him further from midfield, shooting. It would be a waste of 2 attacks, but it is worth bonus CP. Tactics can be used as defensive measure, if something reaches the Leader.

 

Combat – trait: expert fighter - +1 Attack, tactics (1CP) – fight immediately, breaking sequence. Everything is pretty straightforward. Give it to Hammer or Falchion user for maximum effect. Tactics is important when you want to fight something before it kills your fighter and only for 1 CP.

 

Comms – trait: scanner – once per phase choose model within 6” and add +1 to hit rolls, tactics: rousing transmission (1CP) - -1 to nerve tests for friendly models till the end of the phase. Trait is very good for any shooter, especially to mitigate cover penalties. Also helpful for psilencer gunner, if he moved\too far. It is not just for specialist itself, so very flexible. One of the best traits. Tactics is situational, because there are not much problems with morale phase for GK – low model count and high leadership.

 

Demolitions – trait: breacher - +1 to-wound against obscured targets, tactics: custom ammo (1CP) - +1 to-wound in this shooting phase. Another good one. As title states, it is perfectly suited for situation, where important enemy hides in cover. Add Comms’ trait for maximum effect. SBs and Psilencer become really scary. Another combo – give it for Incinerator Gunner, so he can wound everything on 2+ alongside auto-hitting. A musthave.

 

Heavy – trait: relentless – no penalty for moving and firing Heavy or Assault, tactics: more bullets (1 CP) - +1 to number of shots if there is more than 1. This is for Psilencers fans for obvious reasons. Stratagem, on the other hand, gives more benefit for stormbolter, making it Rapid Fire 3, but I’d conserve CP here for more Psybolt Ammo.  7th shot for Psilencer is not big deal. Also, if you really want to use psycannon for some reason – this trait will make it usable. But remember, that your slots are limited.

 

Veteran – trait: Grizzled – ignore leadership penalties and nerve tests, tactics: adaptive tactics (1 CP) – move after set-up. We have better options.

Zealot – trait: frenzied – add 1 to attacks and strength if model charged, tactics: killing frenzy (1 CP) – generate bonus attacks on 6+ to-hit. If you can charge first and have falchions, it is better than combat spec, because +1 to-wound against t4-5 with falchions. Hammer will not gain much from +1 strength (+1 to-wound against t5). Only 3 attacks is not enough to fully utilize the tactics, but can be used if you desperately need to kill something with Zealot. Additional spec for combat-oriented armies.

 

Point cost allows us to take up to 5 fighters. I see the following variantes:

1. Leader Justicar with stave, Comms with SB, Heavy with Psilencer, Demolitions with Incinerator, 1 falchions, 1 other weapon – shooty build with several strong ranged weapons and some close combat support;
2. Leader Juscticar with stave, Combat with Falchions, Zealot with Falchions, Comms with Falchions, Incinerator Gunner, 1 with Falchions – more close combat-oriented build with decent fire support.

We can deal both with elite heavy armored kill-teams and chaff hordes. Close-combat builds is better against the former to reduce saves with falchions, while the latter will fall to stormbolters of shooty builds quickly and shake in morale phase because of model loss.

I don’t think GK is the strongest faction in KT, but unlike WH40k, we can make a fight. There are not some things we are weak in original game, like massive screens, heavy vehicles, uber-strong long range shooting, etc.

 

All of this, of course, is only my opinion based on original WH40k experience and what I know about KT so far. Maybe, I didn’t notice something or got wrong, or meta will be different. I only quickly looked through rules and didn’t read the missions. But I’m really exited for the first time since new codex came out.

[Capt. Mytre]

According to the video I linked, it says that the range is 18" and it effects the closest visible enemy model. Do we have a different version again?

[Corvus Fortis]

My bad, it is still the closest model, so no sniping  :( I'll edit it.

 

Yes, we still have Rites of Banishment - range is 12", but if target is DAEMON, it always deals d3 MW.  And I haven't seen a single model with a daemon keyword so far.

[Panzer]

My bad, it is still the closest model, so no sniping  I'll edit it.

 

Yes, we still have Rites of Banishment - range is 12", but if target is DAEMON, it always deals d3 MW.  And I haven't seen a single model with a daemon keyword so far.

 

Interesting considering there are no daemons in Kill Team so far. ^^

[Capt. Mytre]

 

My bad, it is still the closest model, so no sniping  I'll edit it.

 

Yes, we still have Rites of Banishment - range is 12", but if target is DAEMON, it always deals d3 MW.  And I haven't seen a single model with a daemon keyword so far.

 

Interesting considering there are no daemons in Kill Team so far. ^^

 

 

Tzaangors are confirmed part of the Thousand Sons kill team options, and I think they might have the daemon keyword. Also, all the enemies in the Rogue Trader expansion for Kill Team are daemons.

[Holier Than Thou]

Am I missing something? It looks (from the Faction Focuses) to me that all the other factions pay command points to use their 'tactics' but we have to pay command points AND pass a psychic test? Is this right?

[Corvus Fortis]

Why? Psychic tests are only for Psychic powers and tactics are used only for command points. Nowhere stated otherwise.

[Holier Than Thou]

Ah, it's because they have a psychic power called Psybolt and a tactic called Psybolt Ammunition. I thought they were the same thing.

[TheCastigator]

It looks like movement and positioning will be our biggest stumbling block. Maxing out shooitng looks like the better approach, given our limited number of attacks, though combing a zealot and combat specialist with falchions should let us punch up there.

 

Does anyone known if you explode when you die from perils? That could be an interesting problem.

[Corvus Fortis]

If model is taken out of action by perils, than it deals d3 mortal wounds to all surrounding models in 3". Otherwise, they are standard mortal wounds. 

[jeffersonian000]

If model is taken out of action by perils, than it deals d3 mortal wounds to all surrounding models in 3". Otherwise, they are standard mortal wounds.

That’s ridiculous. Not only are we one of the smallest model count factions in KT, but we can kill off our own models due to Perils splash damage?!?! :cuss, GW!

 

SJ

[N00BST4R]

Costs are the same for models, but standard GK is 1 point down. Incinerator and psilencer are 3 pts and psycannon is 2, everything else - 0 (including SB). Hammer is 2 and falchions are 1, other weapons are 0.

 

I picked up a box of 5 GKs for KT and unfamiliar with GK rules - GK units = 18pts?

[Soder]

Standard cost for a strike squad model = 19pts + 2pts for the must take stormbolter (you don’t have a choice)

[Corvus Fortis]

Standard cost for a strike squad model = 19pts + 2pts for the must take stormbolter

 

These are for main game. For KT GK cost 1 less point and SB is free.

 

We tried today two kill team games with my SM mate. Well, I won both but still feel I was too optimistic.

I found we did several mistakes, but that wasn't critical. 

 

GK kill team is stricktly 5 models no more, no less. This is 90 points, other you spend on 1 leader, 2 gunners, 1-2 guns and falchions.

 

Missions was to hold 4 objectives at the end of the game + kill points.

 

His KT was Sergeant with combi-plamsa, comms intercessor, sniper scout with rifle, heavy spec with HB and a couple of boltgun tacticals. He didn't use any SM specific stratagems - just specs' ones and rerolls.

 

I had justicar with sword, comms with sword, breacher with incinerator, heavy spec with psilencer, 1 guys with falchions. 

 

First impressions:

- I found flesh-wound mechanics too random - I lost my leader in breacher turn 1 just because rolled 5, 6, 5 for their injury rolls, while his leader and bolt gunner stacked 2 and 3 FW respectively;

- shooting still on top. Second game I killed almost entire his kill team just with psilencer;

- Ready! mechanics is a great trouble for us - we have to move in range for rapid fire, while enemy gunline shoot at them before they can retaliate because it didn't move;

- utilize terrain as much as possibe. Forward operatives must be always out of LoS or obscured, gunners must be obscured. Everything that goes out of cover dies instantly;

- Psilencers and Falchions are the still the way to go. But you cannot have both because of lack of points. I still find incinerator potent, but it is really hard to bring him to its target. First game he was killed on halfway, second he wounded enemy leader and was focus-fired again. Probably, second psilencer would be better;

- best specialist is comms - his Scanner is amazing. Heavy is ok, but your gunners would be static most of time anyway. I want to try breacher with psilencer as a second gunner;

- Psybolt is ok. It is just auto-wound most of time. I failed only 2 through 2 games;

- I used only psybolt ammunition tactics. It was fine, 1 CP is nice price.

 

We'll test it futher, but I feel GK can fight for victory. 

[Panzer]

 

If model is taken out of action by perils, than it deals d3 mortal wounds to all surrounding models in 3". Otherwise, they are standard mortal wounds.

That’s ridiculous. Not only are we one of the smallest model count factions in KT, but we can kill off our own models due to Perils splash damage?!?! :cuss, GW!

 

SJ

 

 

lol chill.

You're also one of the only teams that can just throw mortal wounds around like it's nothing. 1 MW per round is actually a lot when your opponent only has like 5-10 models as well. It also ignores all the negative to-hit modificators. Even worse for Daemons with automatic 1d3 MW (aka a lot stronger than even TSons in that regard).

It also shouldn't be too hard to keep your models more than 3" apart from each other.

 

 

First impressions:

- I found flesh-wound mechanics too random - I lost my leader in breacher turn 1 just because rolled 5, 6, 5 for their injury rolls, while his leader and bolt gunner stacked 2 and 3 FW respectively;

- shooting still on top. Second game I killed almost entire his kill team just with psilencer;

- Ready! mechanics is a great trouble for us - we have to move in range for rapid fire, while enemy gunline shoot at them before they can retaliate because it didn't move;

- utilize terrain as much as possibe. Forward operatives must be always out of LoS or obscured, gunners must be obscured. Everything that goes out of cover dies instantly;

- Psilencers and Falchions are the still the way to go. But you cannot have both because of lack of points. I still find incinerator potent, but it is really hard to bring him to its target. First game he was killed on halfway, second he wounded enemy leader and was focus-fired again. Probably, second psilencer would be better;

- best specialist is comms - his Scanner is amazing. Heavy is ok, but your gunners would be static most of time anyway. I want to try breacher with psilencer as a second gunner;

- Psybolt is ok. It is just auto-wound most of time. I failed only 2 through 2 games;

- I used only psybolt ammunition tactics. It was fine, 1 CP is nice price.

 

We'll test it futher, but I feel GK can fight for victory.

 

Flesh-wounds don't sound too random to be honest. You just rolled incredibly bad there. 

The rest sounds perfect. Heavily focussed on tactical movement and usage of cover. That's exactly what I want from a squad based skirmish.

[Corvus Fortis]

lesh-wounds don't sound too random to be honest. You just rolled incredibly bad there. 

 

 

It would be ok if chance to die were not 50\50. They should've make it so the model dies on 5+ by default and on 6+ if in cover to make it more reliable.  

[TheCastigator]

Don’t multi damage weapons allow you to roll two and pick the highest? That helps a lot.

[Corvus Fortis]

That helps to kill but not to survive. :)