Knight ally

[Blackcadian]

I was a bit surprised when I couldn't find a thread debating potential knight support for our forces, as I'm currently in the process of mulling over what would synergize best, and I think that at least my own force could benefit greatly from allying in knights.

 

Basically I found that a lot of times I'll have my heavy hitters on the front-lines and in the opponents deployment zone, and then a bunch of units sitting on backfield objectives that'll be out of range so basically just wasted points in terms of killing power.

 

I'll usually bring a double battallion if I can squeeze that in (we're playing 1500 most of the time), so the backfield babysitting job will most likely go to a tactical squad or a unit of Intercessors, neither being a perfect choice in my opinion.

 

But after spending a lot of time reading though knight related topics and watching some batreps I feel that 2 options would serve me very well:

 

Either a detachment of 2 Helverins and a Gallant, or a single Castellan.

 

The Castellan is easily explained - a ton of long range firepower that otherwise I wouldn't have, as well as a fire magnet to draw away from my assault units (Sanguinary Guard plus characters). House Raven for the re-rolling ones stratagem as well as the Machine Spirit Resurgent one.

 

Gallant plus 2 Helverins to have 2 sturdy backfield shooters with plenty of range. And the Gallant can provide immediate pressure on a flank (so as to not catch ALL the enemy firepower) including the option for a T1 charge with Full Tilt. Then T2 the SGuard and Captain Smash come in, and together there should be little to survive that onslaught. Alternatively I could use Forlorn Fury to move my Captain up in a way that will force the enemy to always shoot the knight first, allowing me to save DoA for the SGuard.

 

Another bonus would be in reducing my drops as to get the plus 1 to start the game, something I don't always get but find very important for BA.

 

What do you think commanders?

[The Unseen]

Issue I see for BA and Knights is we don't have good vehicles that could either draw fire from the knights, or be sheltered by them.

Our best units and tactics all revolve around infantry, and marine vehicles are decidedly mediocre most of the time.

[Brother Crimson]

Hi actually helverins have been evoked as Firebase units in other posts

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/347853-knight-helverins-the-superior-firbase-for-us/?fromsearch=1

[Charlo]

If you want something to support a combat heavy BA force - look no further than the Gallant (with some Warglaives too if you have the points to unlock that character status and 3CP!)

 

This thing can easily get a turn one charge and present an immediate threat and clear a drop zone (not to mention totally slaughter anything big with a fist or the like).

 

Many good options to make it tankier or hittier too, not to mention is under 400pts!!!

[Karhedron]

If you want something to support a combat heavy BA force - look no further than the Gallant (with some Warglaives too if you have the points to unlock that character status and 3CP!)

 

Yes, a Terryn Lance with a Gallant and 2 Warglaives would make superb use of the House Trait. Add Landstrider the Galant (and Sanctuary if you can afford a Relic slot) and you have an exceptionally fast and hard hitting force.

 

A Terryn Gallant with Landstraider has an average threat range of 29.5" if you use "Full Tilt". You can charge halfway into your opponent's deployment zone on Turn 1 if an opening presents itself. One thing I have noticed is that the adoption of the Beta rules for Reserves means that people are taking less chaff for screening now so a T1 charge against a juicy target is a bigger possibility.

 

A Terryn lance like that costs just 692 points, bare bones and nets you +3CPs (although I would be include some upgrades like melta guns). I would spend at least 1CP on Landstrider for the Galant. If you are expecting serious opposition (like Primarchs, greater daemons or enemy Knights), spending an extra CP to give the Gallant the Paragon Gauntlet relic is worth considering. The flat 8 Damage with no to-Hit penalty means you one-shot almost anything in the game while the Deathgrip stratagem is amazing and can even strangle Mortarion if the dice are moderately favourable.

 

I love the image of a Knight wrapping the Gauntlet around Mortarion's throat and lifting him off the ground while intoning.

 

"I find your lack of faith (in the Emperor), disturbing!"

[Charlo]

Can confirm, the Relic Fist is totally Brutal.

 

I ran House Krast at the 40k Doubles and it manged to kill:

 

Tau Yv'hara (FW Suit)

Minotaur Tank + Russ Commander in one round of Combat

Some Custodes Jetbikes with contemptuous ease

Almost another Knight, but Adamantium Knight WT saved it (only gets wounded on a 4+! Ouch.)

[Karhedron]

It is tough to decide whether BAs need another CC wrecking-ball though. Between Captain Smash, Mephiston, Libby Dread and DC+Lemartes, we do have CC fairly well covered. Whilst I can certainly see the value of a Gallant from a threat-overload point of view, the fire support offered by a Raven Castellan is impressive.

 

Getting up close and hitting things is not a problem for BAs but fire support is not an area we excel in. The ability to reach out delete most MBTs with the Volcano lance is golden and even tough units like Custodes will fear Cawl's Wrath. Add in a tasty selection of secondary weapons and your opponent will not be able to keep out of range of this walking arsenal.

[Diagramdude]

Another great feature of the Gallant is he will get far up the board turn 1 and can screen for all the BA characters that want to buzz around the enemy front lines. A Gallant will really clog up the firing lanes and protect characters from a lot of targeting.

 

The other thing I'd note is, assuming you don't make the Gallant your warlord, is the Exalted Court and Heirlooms stratagem are decided game by game, so if the enemy has heavy AT firepower you can take the 2+/4++ combo, and if you decide you need speed and killing power take Paragon+Landstrider, or a mix of both.

[Panzer]

Another great feature of the Gallant is he will get far up the board turn 1 and can screen for all the BA characters that want to buzz around the enemy front lines. A Gallant will really clog up the firing lanes and protect characters from a lot of targeting.

 

Unless you make him a character. Remember that characters don't protect other characters anymore.

[Blackcadian]

Some very good replies here and a lot along the lines I was thinking.

 

 

It is tough to decide whether BAs need another CC wrecking-ball though. Between Captain Smash, Mephiston, Libby Dread and DC+Lemartes, we do have CC fairly well covered. Whilst I can certainly see the value of a Gallant from a threat-overload point of view, the fire support offered by a Raven Castellan is impressive.

 

Getting up close and hitting things is not a problem for BAs but fire support is not an area we excel in. The ability to reach out delete most MBTs with the Volcano lance is golden and even tough units like Custodes will fear Cawl's Wrath. Add in a tasty selection of secondary weapons and your opponent will not be able to keep out of range of this walking arsenal.

EXACTLY! This is my dilemma - a Gallant sounds great - but is it really what we (I) need? A Gallant will be hampered by screens in front of the juicy targets just like my other hare hitting assault units. A Castellan on the other hand will start deleting Russes/Riptides/Exocrines from T1 on.

 

That said my most difficult opponent plays Tzeetch/Thousand Sons and Eldar. So right now I‘m contemplating which Knight might be best vs those two armies.

[Blackcadian]

 

Another great feature of the Gallant is he will get far up the board turn 1 and can screen for all the BA characters that want to buzz around the enemy front lines. A Gallant will really clog up the firing lanes and protect characters from a lot of targeting.

 

Unless you make him a character. Remember that characters don't protect other characters anymore.

Actually as far as I know only characters with less than 10 wounds don’t protect other characters anymore. That character Gallant can be targeted at will and thus does indeed protect say, Captain Smush or Mephy :)

[Karhedron]

That said my most difficult opponent plays Tzeetch/Thousand Sons and Eldar. So right now I‘m contemplating which Knight might be best vs those two armies.

Tough call, can you give us an idea of what sort of units you typically face?

 

I am guessing that Invulnerable saves and negative to-Hit modifiers feature prominently. A Valiant might be worth considering as the Relic flamer will get masses of automatic hits and the rerolls to wound mean it can even melt tanks. Shieldbreaker missiles are fun if you run into Magnus as his 3++ won't help him against those. Take a Hawshroud Valiant with "Ion Bulwark" and "Traitor's Pyre". Between a 4++ and reduced damage degradation, he should keep fighting well until the bitter end. He can advance just behind your assault units to provide fire support and to take out units that might threaten your DC/SG and characters on the turn after they charge. If your opponent has any nasty counter-charge units, the Hawkshroud stratagem allows you to fire overwatch at any enemy who charges a friendly unit within 12". That means you don't even need your opponent to charge the Valiant to take advantage of the terrifying overwatch provided by Traitor's pyre.

 

Normally I lean towards the Castellan but against 1KSons and Eldar, I think you might get more mileage out of the Valiant.

[Diagramdude]

Blackcadian is correct, the "characters don't screen other characters" only applies to <10 wound characters.

 

Pask screens for company commanders, and a character Gallant would screen likewise

[Blackcadian]

 

That said my most difficult opponent plays Tzeetch/Thousand Sons and Eldar. So right now I‘m contemplating which Knight might be best vs those two armies.

Tough call, can you give us an idea of what sort of units you typically face?

 

I am guessing that Invulnerable saves and negative to-Hit modifiers feature prominently. A Valiant might be worth considering as the Relic flamer will get masses of automatic hits and the rerolls to wound mean it can even melt tanks. Shieldbreaker missiles are fun if you run into Magnus as his 3++ won't help him against those. Take a Hawshroud Valiant with "Ion Bulwark" and "Traitor's Pyre". Between a 4++ and reduced damage degradation, he should keep fighting well until the bitter end. He can advance just behind your assault units to provide fire support and to take out units that might threaten your DC/SG and characters on the turn after they charge. If your opponent has any nasty counter-charge units, the Hawkshroud stratagem allows you to fire overwatch at any enemy who charges a friendly unit within 12". That means you don't even need your opponent to charge the Valiant to take advantage of the terrifying overwatch provided by Traitor's pyre.

 

Normally I lean towards the Castellan but against 1KSons and Eldar, I think you might get more mileage out of the Valiant.

Thank you for your quick and comprehensive reply! Interesting that you would advocate the Valiant against those 2 armies as that is the direction I am now leaning on as well (when considering those 2 opposing forces).

 

This particular opponent likes to bring the strongest lists he can think of against me as we mostly battle hard for the lead of our club league.

With Eldar he likes his Dark Reapers (in a bastion), wraith flamers and 3 Fire prisms. Mandatory Farseer on Jetbike and Rangers included, with the wraith jet sprinkled in at times. All Alaitoc of course.

With TS/Tzeentch last time he brought mortal wound & pink horror spam with buff characters and some cultists. Something I‘ve yet to figure out a solution to.

 

One question - wouldn’t another house be more beneficial for the Valiant as the Flamer doesn’t suffer from the degrading profile anyway?

[BluejayJunior]

Hawkshroud will keep the other weapons firing more effectively for longer. But a big reason to take Hawkshroud with a Valiant is their stratagem, which allows you to overwatch with the Knight if any imperium unit in range is charged. That is pretty brutal with the Valiant's flamer. 

[Karhedron]

OK, lots of mobility on the Eldar list (not surprising really) so perhaps the Valiant would not be the best option. It is slower than Questoris knights and with its short-ranged primary weapons, you run the risk of being kited to death. Even with Alaitoc to harm your shooting, a Castellan would make quite mess of the Eldar due to tough/high wound targets. The Volcano Lance would take the bastion down in a couple of shots (you could bust it in one turn if you dedicate some other shooting to it). Cawl's Wrath will make a mess of Wraithguard and both will pose a serious threat to Eldar grav tanks. You will need the Ion Bulwark trait with all those high AP guns pointing your way.

 

For the 1KSons, you might be better with your original idea of a Gallant. Take a Mechanicus house (probably Krast) and give him Knight Senschal (+1A). Now he can make 18 S8 attacks with his feet that hit on a 2+ (rerolling misses on the turn he charges) and wound most targets on a 2+. Even with invulnerable saves, he is going to be turning a lot of horrors into pink goo. If he gets targeted by Mortal wounds, play Benevolence of the Machine God for 1CP for a 5+ save against all Mortal Wounds. Either that or just soup up further and add a Culexus Assassin to really spoil his day.

 

A Valiant also has merit against Horror spam although it will be the flamer rather than the feet that does more damage. You could take the Hawkshroud relic for a fixed 4++ against all Mortal Wounds in the psychic phase. Although the Valiant has 1 big gun that does not degrade, it also has the harpoon, 4 meltas, cannons, missiles and feet that do degrade so the Hawkshroud Trait is useful even here. The fact it does not benefit the flamer is offset by the fact it can use the Overwatch stratagem although this may be less important against 1KSons as they don't have many CC powerhouse units.

[Blackcadian]

OK, lots of mobility on the Eldar list (not surprising really) so perhaps the Valiant would not be the best option. It is slower than Questoris knights and with its short-ranged primary weapons, you run the risk of being kited to death. Even with Alaitoc to harm your shooting, a Castellan would make quite mess of the Eldar due to tough/high wound targets. The Volcano Lance would take the bastion down in a couple of shots (you could bust it in one turn if you dedicate some other shooting to it). Cawl's Wrath will make a mess of Wraithguard and both will pose a serious threat to Eldar grav tanks. You will need the Ion Bulwark trait with all those high AP guns pointing your way.

 

For the 1KSons, you might be better with your original idea of a Gallant. Take a Mechanicus house (probably Krast) and give him Knight Senschal (+1A). Now he can make 18 S8 attacks with his feet that hit on a 2+ (rerolling misses on the turn he charges) and wound most targets on a 2+. Even with invulnerable saves, he is going to be turning a lot of horrors into pink goo. If he gets targeted by Mortal wounds, play Benevolence of the Machine God for 1CP for a 5+ save against all Mortal Wounds. Either that or just soup up further and add a Culexus Assassin to really spoil his day.

 

A Valiant also has merit against Horror spam although it will be the flamer rather than the feet that does more damage. You could take the Hawkshroud relic for a fixed 4++ against all Mortal Wounds in the psychic phase. Although the Valiant has 1 big gun that does not degrade, it also has the harpoon, 4 meltas, cannons, missiles and feet that do degrade so the Hawkshroud Trait is useful even here. The fact it does not benefit the flamer is offset by the fact it can use the Overwatch stratagem although this may be less important against 1KSons as they don't have many CC powerhouse units.

Quite excellent advice once again! I definitely agree with all of your points, those choices make a lot of sense.

 

So I guess it comes down to which army he favors at the moment (which seems to be 1k sons), that is if I want to make my choice of Knight solely dependent on beating him, which might be a bit extreme haha!

 

I suppose other things to consider would be that not even our resident knights player has a Dominus class yet so that’d be cool. On the other hand a Gallant would allow me to squeeze in 2 Armigers, too, unlocking household traits and 3 CP. Decisions decisions

[Helias_Tancred]

I prefer the Valiant, but there's a lot of Rule of Cool behind that opinion ;) .... Gallant's rock and should rightfully scare anyone these days!

[Karhedron]

I suppose other things to consider would be that not even our resident knights player has a Dominus class yet so that’d be cool. On the other hand a Gallant would allow me to squeeze in 2 Armigers, too, unlocking household traits and 3 CP. Decisions decisions

Yes, as a Galant and a pair of Armigers work very nicely together. Both Warglaives and Helverins could work here. If you take Wargliaves then Landstrider is a good Warlord Trait as it give +2 to Advance and Chareg moves and has a 6" bubble meaning all 3 Knights can potentially charge very fast. Even Eldar won't be able to outrun those kind of speeds.

If you favour Helverins, they work quite well against units with special rules of all kinds. Against flying targets, activate "Skyreaper protocols" for 1CP to reroll all misses against a flying target. That will force hits through, even against an Alaitoc flyer. The -1AP and flat 3 Damage means they are good for taking out units that rely on invulnerable saves and/or multiple wounds to stay alive. A volley from a pair of Helverins will put a serious dent in most Grav tanks.

I take it you also play a full Knight army then, being as knowledgeable as you are?

Let's just say I am working on it.

[HeresyBeliever]

I am building a BA list up with lots of death company. 

 

I plan to support them with a knight Errant and 2 Warglaive's for all out choppy list with a a load of meltas.