Gallant Death Ball

[ImperialSquishiness]

Posted this in a Knight's FB group, but thought I'd stick on here too for discussion. Sorry if there's already another thread on this.

 

So, I've been thinking with the increase in CP for knights and tournaments dropping down to 1750 games what the viability of a Gallant death ball would be.

Working on a list of 3 Gallants, 2 Helverins and 2 Warglaives comes in at about 1740 with stubbers.

I'd be running 1 gallant with Seneschal WL trait for an extra attack, 1 gallant with Landstrider and paragon gauntlet and the other bare. Stick the bare Gallant at the front of the ball and use a Landstrider advance to get him close in, with the others following up. Using full tilt he should hit enemy lines like a ton of bricks. He has to be dealt with as priority number 1 then, leaving the other 2 relatively untouched.

The helverins can backfield camp for some long range dakka and the Warglaives can either Sally forth if taking Imperialis or roam around and use their speed to get where you need them.

 

House wise, I'd be unsure what to take.

Hawkshroud is the obvious one for the buff to degrading stat lines. But Terryn for the extra dice on advance and charge moves is also strong or Griffith for the extra attack on the charge/Heroic Intervention.

 

My thinking with Hawkshroud is also a case of keeping a Knight close to the bare Gallant so if it gets charged t1 before all of them hit the lines, I can use the Hawkshroud strat for a Heroic Intervention and slingshot myself up the board even more.

[Stray]

I like it. It's pretty 'do or die', but I can see it working quite nicely at 1750 points. Three Gallants screaming toward your lines must be up there in the scariest thing in 40K stakes.

[ImperialSquishiness]

As Hawkshroud, they have to be dealt with too. You can't just try to degrade a couple. That's what the barebones gallant is for. Sacrificial piece that must get to enemy lines and get in their face t1. With the Landstrider boost, he's moving 14+d6" and then full tilt gets another 2d" movement and maybe an extra 2" if your advance rolls for the Landstrider Knight keep him in range.

 

It's whether or not Hawkshroud is the right house for this tactic. Obviously Griffith and the +1 attack on the charge is amazing with a Gallant, Krast and the rerolling hits in combat is also pretty darn sweet. Terryn for the extra dice on advance and charge rolls gives you a better chance of making it into combat t1

 

The 2nd Knight with a WL trait is up for discussion but I really think a Landstrider WL trait will cause a lot of problems in a death ball.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

You have 72 wounds on big knights at the begining. Than ma it hawkshroud, And make it almoust double. It is like with necrons. If you wan’t hawkshroud die you must kill him. That makes other two in comfort spot.

Also i would concider to drop on warglaive for 180 IG farm batalion And for camping home objectives. That would give you 15CP and huge farm potential.

I would Also concider for 2k games supreme command detachment with 3 librarians for some smite defense and null zone potential.

Riptides with 3++ And shield drones could be annoying...

[ImperialSquishiness]

All valid points.

 

I refuse to run any soup where possible though. Pure army or no army is my preferred method. Makes it more interesting then, trying to cover a weakness

[Frostbit3]

My anecdotal tournament experience so far is that this seems better in a persons head then in reality. In reality with standard terrain placement you will rarely be able to place all 3 within 6” of the landstrider and still have a good movement lane. Secondly roughly 1/3 of the deployments are hammer and anvil with the peaked hammer and anvil being especially devastating. I don’t know if your list has enough shooting to deal with the things that can hurt you at range if your opponent deploys back and gets 2+ turns of shooting before you crash in.

I did 2 gallants and a valiant with a similar thought process to yours. Did very well in first two games, then fell apart to a shooty army that the map would not allow me to get to until turn 3.

[Heliomanes]

I'd consider House Krast. Rerolling in melee as a constant bonus helps the gallants when their stats start to deteriorate, and is a constant bonus unlike the Hawkshroud one. It also makes the Warglaives more of a threat. Additionally, you'll get access to some neat traits and relics, and the competitive Questor Mechanicus stratagems.

Terryn seem really good if you run a smaller detachment, like a gallant with two warglaives as a part of a larger force. Hawkshroud seem good if you run a more mixed approach, so you can get utility out of the overwatch stratagem.

[LucidNinja]

I've added a gallant and 2 warglaives to my primaris army. Running them as house Terryn, land strider and paragon on the gallant. They are a massive threat that needs to be dealt with, gallant can go 19-32" and hits like a ton of bricks, with the warglaives having a 18-26" charge range without full tilt.

I like your plan

[Feral_80]

I have something similar in mind. I suggest Krast however, not Hawkshroud.

 

Hawkshroud trait only comes into play when a Knight is severely wounded, while Krast is there all the time. And it's pretty broken: with the exception of Armigers, it's *always* turn 1 of combat for a Krast knight, since he can disengage and charge again. So, effectively, rerolls to hit on every turn.

 

And as a Mechanicum-aligned knight, you always have MSR to have a wounded knight act normally for a turn, at just 1 CP. It is rather unlikely that your opponent manages to cripple two knights, as he will normally focus on just one. As Mechanicum you also have the very important 5+++ vs Mortal wounds stratagem, which against certain armies is invaluable, especially in lack of any psychic defence.

 

The only really good thing you'd miss from Hawkshroud is their stratagem, but that works better with a Valiant, which you do not have. And the other pros of a Mechanicum house make up for it, I think.

 

Finally, as much as the Paragon gauntlet looks cool, its utility seems rather limited to me. You'll use feet most of the times anyway, and you already have rerolls to hit on your normal fist (except if rolling a 2 - but then there's the stratagem if you really need it). On the other hand, I now never leave home without the 2+ armour relic on my Gallant - it really makes a great difference, and it will *always* be useful. 

 

Yes, I tend to favour assets that always provide something rather than those that only provide an occasional - if more powerful - utility.

[Stray]

^^

 

I agree with just about all of this.

 

I would favour the Paragon Gauntlet (not that it matters in this case - you're taking three Gallants, you may as well put on one of them). It's simply the most reliably dangerous weapon in the entire Knight arsenal. Nothing can compete with it in terms of average performance. While this absolutely means it's wasted against infantry, knowing it's there and will be reliable for deleting a clutch target is exceedingly worthwhile.

 

That said, you'll definitely get more mileage out of it in some games more than others. When facing an infantry horde style army for example it probably won't pull it's weight unless there is an abundant amount of tough special characters or similar.

 

Feral's army design philosophy in terms of assets is very sensible and well worth consideration.

[ImperialSquishiness]

I think with this build, Krast is probably the way to go housewise on reflection.

Yes, Hawkshroud keeps you at optimum efficiency longer, but rerolling that 1 every turn more or less helps stomp stuff quicker/punch stuff better. Plus mechanicum stratagems will negate some of the degradation when you need it.

However, I think Griffith getting an extra attack is always very useful. Cadmus and rerolling wounds on anything with 12 wounds or less is pretty good as there's not a whole lot outside of super heavies with more than that.

[sneakybamsen]

However, I think Griffith getting an extra attack is always very useful. Cadmus and rerolling wounds on anything with 12 wounds or less is pretty good as there's not a whole lot outside of super heavies with more than that.

 

Krast is still superior. No matter how you spin it, rerolling failed hits is superior to rerolling failed wounds (more dice to influence), and as stated otherwise, you should be disenganging and charging every turn possible, especially with Gallants.

 

Not that Cadmus or Griffith or Hawkshroud is bad in any way, but for Gallants, Krast is the strongest house.

[jeffersonian000]

I prefer “Gallant Thunder Ball” as a name, rather than “Death Ball”. It “rolls” off the tongue better.

 

SJ

[Lysere]

 

However, I think Griffith getting an extra attack is always very useful. Cadmus and rerolling wounds on anything with 12 wounds or less is pretty good as there's not a whole lot outside of super heavies with more than that.

 

Krast is still superior. No matter how you spin it, rerolling failed hits is superior to rerolling failed wounds (more dice to influence), and as stated otherwise, you should be disenganging and charging every turn possible, especially with Gallants.

 

Not that Cadmus or Griffith or Hawkshroud is bad in any way, but for Gallants, Krast is the strongest house.

 

 

Actually mathematically the two are the same for a gallant that hasn't degraded since in this case both are re-rolling ones and the end result of either gets you the same number of wounds. Krast is superior once you start degrading though and their other bonuses are slightly better if your plan is to run three gallants. The unique imperial strats don't really make much of a difference with that particular set up.

[LucidNinja]

So my death ball had it's first proper run last night, I didn't get to do any long charges unfortunately but my Gallant punched a shadowsword for 40 damage, threw it at kreed, then stomped a Custodes squad to paste before running off with the objective and winning the game... He did good!

[jeffersonian000]

Thunder Ball!

 

SJ

[sneakybamsen]

 

 

However, I think Griffith getting an extra attack is always very useful. Cadmus and rerolling wounds on anything with 12 wounds or less is pretty good as there's not a whole lot outside of super heavies with more than that.

 

Krast is still superior. No matter how you spin it, rerolling failed hits is superior to rerolling failed wounds (more dice to influence), and as stated otherwise, you should be disenganging and charging every turn possible, especially with Gallants.

 

Not that Cadmus or Griffith or Hawkshroud is bad in any way, but for Gallants, Krast is the strongest house.

 

 

Actually mathematically the two are the same for a gallant that hasn't degraded since in this case both are re-rolling ones and the end result of either gets you the same number of wounds. Krast is superior once you start degrading though and their other bonuses are slightly better if your plan is to run three gallants. The unique imperial strats don't really make much of a difference with that particular set up.

 

 

I just re-checked the Cadmus rules. I'm sorry, but how is it the same, when you are statistically influencing more dice with house Krast?

 

Reroll 1's to hit means you have more hits, reroll 1's to wound means you get more wounds, but from a smaller pool. Yes, krast is only when charging/charged/heroically intervening, but Cadmus is also slightly limited in it's use, so I'll disregard those here.

 

Using the chainglaive as an example here with hitting and wounding on 2's.

Krast: 4,31 hits from a Gallant resulting in 3,73 wounding hits.

Cadmus: 4,17 will hit so giving 3,60 wounding hits.

 

It's not a lot better, but when you take in the stratagem advantage for mechanicus, it's quite a lot better being Krast.

[Karhedron]

I just re-checked the Cadmus rules. I'm sorry, but how is it the same, when you are statistically influencing more dice with house Krast?

It does not matter how many dice you are influencing. In effect, all the dice that you are rerolling to wound have already succeeded on their "to-hit" roll. When you are working out the probabilities of 2 events both happening (I.E. you hit AND you wound), you multiply the probabilities together. Thus it does not matter at which step you apply the reroll since multiplication gives the same result regardless of the order of multiplication.

 

Not convinced? Let's work out an example of a Gallant with 5 attacks (hitting on a 2+) and attacking a T7 target so also wounding on a 2+.

 

Rerolling to hit gives you:

4.861 hits

4.051 wounds.

 

Rerolling on the to-wound step gives you:

4.167 hits

4.051 wounds.

 

So you see? Exactly the same statistical result regardless of whether you get the reroll at the to-hit or to-wound step.

 

Where it does make a difference is when the to-hit and to-wound rolls are not equal. Let's imagine you are now attacking a T8 target using your Reaper Chainsword so now yu are wounding on a 3+ rather than a 2+.

 

Rerolling to hit gives you:

4.861 hits

3.241 wounds.

 

Rerolling on the to-wound step gives you:

4.167 hits

3.704 wounds.

 

So here, a reroll to wound is actually better than a reroll to hit.

 

It does not matter how many dice you are rolling at each step, what matters is the probability that a particular dice will benefit from a reroll. Therefore the best reroll is one that is applied to the hardest roll.

 

This means that Krast is better than Cadmus in most cases (not because you roll more dice at the "to-hit" step than the "to-wound" step) but because your "to-hit" profile degrades with damage whilst your to-wound stays the same. Thus you are more likely to make use of a reroll to hit than to wound.

 

There are a few exceptions such as a Crusader attacking a T8 target. Here the Cadmus reroll will actually net you more damage (from an undamaged knight) than the Krast reroll. I hope that this helps explain things.

[Frostbit3]

I’m so glad there are people in the world who are good at math so that I don’t have to be.

[librisrouge]

I’m going to give three gallants a shot (combined with some IG air cav) and I’m wondering what people’s thoughts are on House Terryn, specifically their stratagem. An IG warlord helps limit the costs and fighting twice is brutal. The house trait just means your dice are less likely to bite it on crummy charge rolls.

[Clingy]

I’m going to give three gallants a shot (combined with some IG air cav) and I’m wondering what people’s thoughts are on House Terryn, specifically their stratagem. An IG warlord helps limit the costs and fighting twice is brutal. The house trait just means your dice are less likely to bite it on crummy charge rolls.

Gods(machine) speed commander!

[Vel'Cona]

I’m so glad there are people in the world who are good at math so that I don’t have to be.

 

Right?  I'm more worried if the paint scheme I chose will look cool or if I should add more skulls to a model's base, but to each their own! :lol:

[Karhedron]

 

I’m so glad there are people in the world who are good at math so that I don’t have to be.

Right?  I'm more worried if the paint scheme I chose will look cool or if I should add more skulls to a model's base, but to each their own!

 

I have a degree in Astronomy and a Masters in Computer Science.

 

I spend my spare time painting little plastic models and arguing over obscure fluff or rules interpretations.

 

Takes all sorts doesn't it? 

[librisrouge]

 

 

I’m so glad there are people in the world who are good at math so that I don’t have to be.

Right?  I'm more worried if the paint scheme I chose will look cool or if I should add more skulls to a model's base, but to each their own!

 

I have a degree in Astronomy and a Masters in Computer Science.

 

I spend my spare time painting little plastic models and arguing over obscure fluff or rules interpretations.

 

Takes all sorts doesn't it? 

 

NOTICE OF TANGENCY: Posts like this make me wonder what the average education level of a 40k player is. I've got two master's degrees and teach high school. At least two players I met had Ph.D.s Given the amount of reading and math involved with this game, I'd wager that its at least a standard deviation above average.

[frosteldar]

LOL!  I suspect the range is quite large!  I'm a research scientist working in biotech, helping develop new medicines and have a B.S. in Genetics/Biochemistry and a Master's in Biotechnology.  But, as Karhedronuk so nicely stated, I enjoy assembling plastic soldiers and playing on battlefields of terrain. ;)