Hellblasters vs. Grim Resolve

[Ariakas]

Hey there, long time reader but first time poster, had a question about the most efficient plasma we can run.

 

It seems to me that a lot of people on here like Hellblasters with Azrael + assorted bubble buffs. Which makes sense, because they are certainly nasty within 15", and Azrael lets them not have to worry about moving and overcharging, which makes getting that 15" range easier. But that's the thing; they *need* Azrael. Without him or a master, they can't move and overcharge safely. So Azrael essentially becomes a tax in any game you take Hellblasters in.

 

We're Dark Angels. We get a chapter tactic that rewards immobile gunline shooting, that allows us to avoid having to pay the "Captain Tax" on our shooters because it's baked into the army. Our Devs can always overcharge. 10 Hellblasters + Az is 510 points. 3 Dev squads (4 Plasma, Sergeant, 1 regular marine) is 501. Hellblasters with Az (3s, full rerolls) put out 8.88 hits at 30", or 17.77 at 15". The 3 Dev squads (3s, reroll 1s) put out 18.66 hits at 36". 

 

The only disadvantages to running the 3 Devs over HB/AZ is that WOTDA is less effective, and bubble buffs (lieutenant, ancient) are less effective. But you can solve the first problem by running plasma inceptors if you like. (Drop them turn 2 with a THSS master, overcharge them with his rerolls, WOTDA, end worlds, then the master charges off and the PI stay put for grim resolve next turn.) The second problem is actually somewhat of a benefit, because while we lose out on auras, we can spread out our firebase and they can reroll hits on their own, we don't need to castle up like ultras in a bubble.

 

HBs in 15" are great. Getting there can be an issue, and once there, a melee based opponent will just thank you for the help with the charge range, and shooty armies will have the HBs within range of any anti infantry guns they have at that point.

 

So why not have essentially the same output at 36"? Or on a unit that can just appear at 18"? And use other units to contest board (bikes, bolter inceptors, etc)?

 

It just feels like mobile plasma in an army that rewards immobile shooting is paying too much for something we don't need.

 

These are honest questions. When I see so many people running HBs, I think I must be wrong on some calculation or there is something I am missing. But beyond WOTDA and number of plasmas per unit, I can't think of any other compelling reason that HBs > Devs, for DA specifically at least.

[Basteala]

I've put up what attempted to be a brief run down of the ups and downs and all arounds, but it still might be a tad long. I've a TL;DR at the end if you want a quick and dirty explanation.

 

As someone that used to use Devastators very liberally in a DA Army, sans Azarel--it's all the anti MEQ running around. In particular (at least in my experience) Castellan Robots. These things can comfortably split fire and mow down 1 wound marines, especially given that Phosphorus Cannons ignore cover, forcing marines to a 5+ armor save no matter what. Even without Azrael, at least Hellblasters have 2 wounds each. 

 

36 range also....isn't great.Especially for a heavy weapon. And don't forget that it's not just a -1 to hit when moving and firing plasma cannons...you also double your chance of death to overcharging without Azrael, since 2s will also kill you now. Remember you're subtracting 1 from your hit roll. Now, I prefer plasma devs over anything that's not a combination of lascannons and one heavy bolter, but combine this with Tac Marine statlines, and you have a bit of an issue.

 

Then there's the RNG element of plasma cannons. Yes, you're averaging 8 shots, but it's still anywhere between 4-12. Why does that matter? Weapons From the Dark Age. You really don't want to blow a CP on that stratagem, and then land something like 4-5 shots. Sure you can afford 2 Plasma Dev squads for the same price, but you're only buffing one of them, whereas the Hellblasters will get a consistent 10 (20 in RF range) shots with Weapons From the Dark Age. This also makes them very strong against someone stupid enough to deep strike them within 12 inches of a Hellblaster squad.  

 

The -4 is nice too. If you make enough wounds on a 3+ target, that unit is dead without an invuln save.

 

Azarel himself is big, I feel, largely due to that 4++ save. 8th ed is an era where the 3+ save of marines is absolutely useless. Invuln saves, on the other hand, are an integral element that makes elite armies very strong (ie Custodes). An Azrael castle with select help can act sort of like shooty custodes, albeit still less tanky.

 

Plasma Inceptors are generally support on top of the Azrarel castle. They have a better alpha, but unless they hug Azrael really closely, they'll die very quickly due to the aforementioned armor woes. To move at such a slow pace all the time is to sacrifice some of the things that make them so effective, effectively turning them into overcosted hellblasters in smaller games. 

 

(TL;DR)

 

In short, Hellblasters can live longer, and are more reliable for WFTDA, even if plasma Devastator throughput is theoretically higher at range. Hellblasters form the core instead of inceptors because they don't get slowed down by Azrael, and are still somewhat cheaper. I would argue that better access to invuln saves, the Darkshroud Aura, and Weapons from the Dark Age are the primary reasons we're not shoved into (total) irrelevance like codex chapters. Hellblasters just happen to work the best with that.

[Solrac]

First off Azrael is not a tax. He is a force multiplier. Doesn't matter what list you are running, re-rolls for days, killer warlord trait, +1 CP, 4++ invul on your infantry at his price point is a steal not to mention he is very decent in combat. In a game where you have to take HQ's there is no better option.

 

There are actually a good mix of people on here that run Hellblasters, Plasma Devs and Plasma Inceptors. You haven't missed anything. They are all really good choices and they all have their pro's and cons.

 

What it comes down ultimately is what type of game you are playing. Hellblasters are more popular in the ITC Tournament scene because being mobile is ultimately more efficient for scoring points and they cost less than Plasma Inceptors (although a good mix of Hellblasters + Plasma Inceptors is also a good way to go for ITC).

 

I enjoyed the 3x 9 man Hellblaster squad list I was running because Az + Lieutenant + Ancient made it super amazing. Was really durable and the damage output was awesome. Even when Hellblasters aren't in rapid fire range a volley of single shots from one squad with re-rolls and WotDA can easily bring down a tank or make a big dent in a super heavy.

 

I think why Hellblasters edge out the other choices on average is their -4 Plasma is really powerful. 3+ armour is really really common so being able to negate the save completely just makes them great.

 

Also don't discount their melee ability. Hellblasters put out a lot of attacks. At a Tournament one of my units with Azrael mixed in got charged by 30 Bloodletters. I whittled the unit down to 21 with Auspex Scan and Overwatch. Out of the massive amount of attacks he got on me I only lost 1 Hellblaster thanks to Azrael's 4++. I ended up killing another 12 in return and then they got wiped in morale.

 

With the fallback and shoot stratagem and the infantry unit can attack again stratagem they are a pretty good melee choice on the defense.

 

In summary though it is about preference. I have tried all 3 units extensively. I have preferred Hellblasters personally but now days I am leaning more towards Inceptors. It's hard to see all the angles when just comparing units on paper. Play lots of games and try them out. Proxy if you have to.

[Basteala]

The melee isn't a bad point. When you think about it....5 hellblasters have the melee output that a normal tac squad has for shooting. Think of that what you will, but having bolter fire for your melee option for a dedicated shooting unit isn't the worst thing in the world. At least not since you can use Intractable after the fact.

[Ariakas]

That's a good point about defense, HBs are definitely much heavier on wounds than an equal amount of devs. Az's 4++ is nice for HBs since they will be in cover less, having to move up the board to be effective. Devs will be in cover though, so beyond a few specific threats, 2+ is a pretty great save against AP. And the Devs have ablative wounds as well.

 

I've tried out both the HB blob and the dev spam, and they both had their positives and negatives. The only thing that annoyed me about the blob is that it's all your eggs in one basket. If it gets within 15" to shoot something and eats a charge the next turn, they might be ok, or they might be done for. Intractable is nice, but they could be half dead by that point.

 

I do agree about the book's options though. It's nice that DA has stuff to choose from that's actually effective, as opposed to vanilla SM.

[Orkinstein]

So which weapon did you guys use? Rapid fire or assault?

 

Here is my calculations that if not in rapid fire range (include 6" move though. A for advance, S for supercharge):

 

VS T7/3+ Shots Wounds Range

RF 10 3.33 36

RF(S) 10 8.89 36

A 20 4.44 30

A(S) 20 13.33 30

A(A) 20 3.33 33.5

A(AS) 20 10.00 33.5

VS T8/3+ Shots Wounds Range

RF 10 2.22 36

RF(S) 10 6.67 36

A 20 4.44 30

A(S) 20 8.89 30

A(A) 20 3.33 33.5

A(AS) 20 6.67 33.5

[G8Keeper]

So which weapon did you guys use? Rapid fire or assault?

 

Here is my calculations that if not in rapid fire range (include 6" move though):

 

VS T7/3+ Shots Wounds Range

RF 10  3.33  36

RF(S) 10  8.89  36

A 20  4.44  30

A(S) 20  13.33  30

A(A) 20  3.33  33.5

A(AS) 20  10.00  33.5        

VS T8/3+ Shots Wounds Range      

RF 10  2.22  36

RF(S) 10  6.67  36

A 20  4.44  30

A(S) 20  8.89  30

A(A) 20  3.33  33.5

A(AS) 20  6.67  33.5

 

Can you provide a key? I'm old(ish) and my brain won't work.

[Ariakas]

Yeah, there’s a lot of letters there, and I figured out half of them. Please expand just a little.

 

I will say the assault HBs are not shabby though. The ability to advance and shoot twice and keep your opponent at 24” while doing so is big. Worth losing 1Str? Depends on their job. But definitely a much safer unit. Still need Azrael, but HBs and Az are PB&J for 8th.

 

The heavy HBs are just plain awful.

[Basteala]

That's a good point about defense, HBs are definitely much heavier on wounds than an equal amount of devs. Az's 4++ is nice for HBs since they will be in cover less, having to move up the board to be effective. Devs will be in cover though, so beyond a few specific threats, 2+ is a pretty great save against AP. And the Devs have ablative wounds as well.

 

I've tried out both the HB blob and the dev spam, and they both had their positives and negatives. The only thing that annoyed me about the blob is that it's all your eggs in one basket. If it gets within 15" to shoot something and eats a charge the next turn, they might be ok, or they might be done for. Intractable is nice, but they could be half dead by that point.

 

I do agree about the book's options though. It's nice that DA has stuff to choose from that's actually effective, as opposed to vanilla SM.

 

Rapid Fire Hellblasters. Thing is due to the -4, even at range, you have good, steady kill potential. Overcharging and using WFTDA on a 10 man squad of hellblasters is enough damage potential to split fire and still cripple two Rhino Chassis vehicles statistically, or kill if Azarael's rerolls work out for you, which they mathematically should for at least one of your teams. 

[Company Master Holden]

I agree with you Ariakas that the heavy Hellblasters just aren't worth it, and IMO I think you can never ever go wrong with the Rapid Fire version. My problems with the Assault version is that even though you can fire it after you advance, you are taking a -1 to hit anyway, which means overcharging is going to kill you on ones and twos. I have also found that in my meta having that extra strength is absolutely essential. My buddy runs an Imperial Guard armored list, and having the ability to put wounds on a Leman Russ at a 4+ (overcharged) rather than a 5+, negating their save, and inflicting 2 damage (3 with WoTDA) is awesome. The last game I played with my friend I had 8 Hellblasters in Rapid Fire Range of a Leman Russ with Grim Resolve and a Lt. aura buff and I inflicted close to 24 damage!

 

Now I'm not hating on the Assault Plasma by any means, and I mean to eventually try them out. However, for 9 points more you can field a 4 man squad of Ravenwing Black Knights for the price of 5 Hellblasters with Assault weapons. With Black Knights you get a 14" base movement unit, 20" Advancing, an 18" Assault 2 S7/8 -3 1/2D weapon platform with an extra point of toughness and 2 wounds with the ability to get a 4++ with Jink. This gives them an effective threat range of 32" without advancing. In my mind they are perfect for an aggressive style of play and, once again just my opinion, a better option than the assault Hellblasters for their points. Though I do wish that they would put Plasma Incinerator Talons on the Black Knights to get that sweet -4 AP!

 

My bottom line is that I like the Rapid Fire Hellblasters better than Plasma Devs, though there are amazing players on this forum that run Plasma Devs to devastating (heh) effect. I will say though that the one thing that hurts Hellblasters is the lack of transport options they have and the need to be in Rapid Fire to really slap on the pain. Once deployed your Hellblasters will have to footslog it across the battlefield, whereas Plasma Devs you can stick in a Razor Back and deploy foreward or redeploy fairly quickly. Sure you have the Repulsor, but every game I've played with that thing it never makes it past Turn Two and never earns its points back unless you dump more points into another Repulsor or build around it. I have also learned from experience that a Repulsor packed full with 9 Hellblasters and a Lt. makes for a tempting target that your opponent will not ignore lol. Depending on how you play, the lack of transportation and mobility can be a minor annoyance or a sizable hindrance. 

 

There is no doubt that Dark Angels Plasma is amazing (as it should be) and that we have multiple units that can make good use of our strategems. The hard part is deciding which plasma platform, whether it be Black Knights, Hellblasters, Inceptors, or Plasma Devs, will synergize the best with your current army. 

 

Finally, Basteala brings up a really good point about their close combat attack potential. In a perfect world, a 10 man squad of Hellblasters affected by Righteous Repugnance from a nearby Librarian will have 21 rerollable CC attacks hitting on 3s, wounding MEQs on 4s (rerolling all wound rolls as well) and killing them on anything less than a 3. This averages out to about 4.6 wounds on MEQs (T4, 3+), 2.7 wounds on TEQs (T4, 2+), or approximately 11 wounds on GEQs (T3, 5+). These guys aren't going to burn the world down with their CC potential, but an unwary opponent may find that having to soak up 20 S7/8 -4 1/2D on Overwatch and then deal with the aforemetioned close combat capability may gave them more trouble than they initially thought. Once again this is all a perfect world scenario, but it is helpful to know maximum combat potential. 

[Orkinstein]

 

 

So which weapon did you guys use? Rapid fire or assault?

 

Here is my calculations that if not in rapid fire range (include 6" move though):

 

VS T7/3+ Shots Wounds Range

RF 10 3.33 36

RF(S) 10 8.89 36

A 20 4.44 30

A(S) 20 13.33 30

A(A) 20 3.33 33.5

A(AS) 20 10.00 33.5

VS T8/3+ Shots Wounds Range

RF 10 2.22 36

RF(S) 10 6.67 36

A 20 4.44 30

A(S) 20 8.89 30

A(A) 20 3.33 33.5

A(AS) 20 6.67 33.5

Can you provide a key? I'm old(ish) and my brain won't work.

Sorry Brother, two types of weapons (RF and A), in different situation: Advance(A) and supercharge(S). Numbers are Shots Wounds and Range.

[Solrac]

The Assault version just aren't worth it anymore compared to Rapid Fire. The Assault costs more and has 1 less strength and if you advance you cop a -1 to hit. With your Hellblasters you almost always want to be overcharging so it's counter to what you are trying to achieve in most circumstances.

 

If you want to take Assault Plasma you would go Plasma Inceptors or Ravenwing Black Knights as was already stated.

[Basteala]

Not to mention that with things like Imperial Knights and Lemun Russ variants, you're wounding them on 5s. The assault version is only really strong I think in a very low armor meta. Of course, in that environment, they could be very strong as even with 2s killing you, Azzy will let you reroll those (although a 33% chance of dying after reroll still sucks). The real problem at that point comes in mirror, or Custodes, or anything else that can evoke a hit penalty.

 

Well, that and to even harm a rhino chassis reliably you need 5s. Honestly, the assault incinerators should be cheaper than the regular rifle in my opinion. That 1 strength is huge.

[Ariakas]

Yeah, I think the assault HBs fill a different role than the RF ones, being only S6-7, they won't shoot heavy vehicles. So the better comparisons are plasceptors and black knights, and it's been said here, both offer more bang for your buck than assault HBs. If you need your plasma to move fast, you shouldn't be advancing footsloggers, you should be simply moving fast models. RF HBs are definitely the best HB option. They just need to be scary close, and backed up by a few bubble effects, to work.

[CCE1981]

A question that is bothering me, from experience playing the game, logically and mathematically. Why MUST Hellblasters move and Devastators not required?

 

Maybe I use enough terrain bu rarely is anything too far outside the 30” range of Hellblasters that isn’t hidden from view. Plopped down with good firing arcs my Devastators rarley if ever use their full range. I have dropped Devastators this edition mainly because they sre far to fragile, literally it has been 10 man or bust. Playing a recent game against a Chaos player and I trounced his entire fire support of 3 5-man Havoc squads even though they were in cover.

 

With a table 48” across and a deployment zone of 12”. You have most of the board in range, very few units aren’t going to be there.

[Basteala]

Because Hellblasters are decent at range, but are at their strongest in rapid fire range of 15. They also don't suffer penalties from moving and firing.

 

Devastators, on the other hand, suffer a -1 to hit when they move, but are generally in their optimal effective range at the start of the game provided they were positioned correctly.

[Kasper_Hawser]

If I can suggest, in certain deployments, you can park your hellblasters behind Rhinos to block LOS, and ensure they are close as possible to enemy lines. Then plan for two things:

 

1) If you DON'T go first, then the opponent will have to come to you and thus bring himself into rapid fire 15" range.

2) If you DO go first, then while you may not be in rapid fire range, you can still bring a whole lot of hurt at 30". deployment is normally 12" from the table edge, you could still be as close as 24" of your oppponent depending on table, still enough to do damage with overcharged plasma standing still.

 

I'm not a Dark Angel player, but as a Space wolf who frequently uses Long Fangs (Devastators who have a natural reroll 1 if they focus on one unit), I gambled a few times with not just plasma cannons, but other heavy weapons to get optimum position to deny my enemy its cover and LOS blocks. that way they are protected until the Rhino moves to give a clear LOS on its target.

 

Risky but even with Long Fangs being designated as Long range Heavy support, I find myself using them aggressively, moving to support my mid line much of the time, as opposed to maintaining a satic backline. Perhaps you cna use these thinking to utilise your Hellblasters with Grim resolve without Azrael or a captain. Although as mentioned before, Azrael is an IMMENSE force multiplier worth every point, and can still hop on a Rhino to move.

[Ariakas]

That is an interesting suggestion. I did recently see a batrep from a pre-game at an ITC tourney, DA vs Blood Angels.

The Blood Angels player, instead of opting for the usual 3x Scouts, played 1 scout unit and 2 units of barebones tacs. He then put the tacs each into a razorback along with 1 HQ each. This severely cut back on his number of drops, giving him a large chance to always have the +1 for first turn. It also allowed him to screen other units, and the razors still came with decent turrets. The tacs only cost him 20 more points than scouts would have, and all he gave up was the ability to forward deploy them. But he gained a big deployment advantage.

[Basteala]

That is an interesting suggestion. I did recently see a batrep from a pre-game at an ITC tourney, DA vs Blood Angels.

 

The Blood Angels player, instead of opting for the usual 3x Scouts, played 1 scout unit and 2 units of barebones tacs. He then put the tacs each into a razorback along with 1 HQ each. This severely cut back on his number of drops, giving him a large chance to always have the +1 for first turn. It also allowed him to screen other units, and the razors still came with decent turrets. The tacs only cost him 20 more points than scouts would have, and all he gave up was the ability to forward deploy them. But he gained a big deployment advantage.

 

The deployment rules are by no means a bad thing, but that's the Razorback at work, not the tac squads. Most people use Scouts as screens because it's convenient to do so, but if I'm not mistake, scouts can start embarked on a Razorback, too.

[Ariakas]

 

That is an interesting suggestion. I did recently see a batrep from a pre-game at an ITC tourney, DA vs Blood Angels.

 

The Blood Angels player, instead of opting for the usual 3x Scouts, played 1 scout unit and 2 units of barebones tacs. He then put the tacs each into a razorback along with 1 HQ each. This severely cut back on his number of drops, giving him a large chance to always have the +1 for first turn. It also allowed him to screen other units, and the razors still came with decent turrets. The tacs only cost him 20 more points than scouts would have, and all he gave up was the ability to forward deploy them. But he gained a big deployment advantage.

 

The deployment rules are by no means a bad thing, but that's the Razorback at work, not the tac squads. Most people use Scouts as screens because it's convenient to do so, but if I'm not mistake, scouts can start embarked on a Razorback, too.

 

 

Sure, scouts can start embarked. But half the reason Scouts are good is because of the possible forward deployment, which is wasted in a razorback. At that point, it just becomes a question of how much you want +1 armor save.

[Basteala]

 

 

That is an interesting suggestion. I did recently see a batrep from a pre-game at an ITC tourney, DA vs Blood Angels.

 

The Blood Angels player, instead of opting for the usual 3x Scouts, played 1 scout unit and 2 units of barebones tacs. He then put the tacs each into a razorback along with 1 HQ each. This severely cut back on his number of drops, giving him a large chance to always have the +1 for first turn. It also allowed him to screen other units, and the razors still came with decent turrets. The tacs only cost him 20 more points than scouts would have, and all he gave up was the ability to forward deploy them. But he gained a big deployment advantage.

 

The deployment rules are by no means a bad thing, but that's the Razorback at work, not the tac squads. Most people use Scouts as screens because it's convenient to do so, but if I'm not mistake, scouts can start embarked on a Razorback, too.

 

 

Sure, scouts can start embarked. But half the reason Scouts are good is because of the possible forward deployment, which is wasted in a razorback. At that point, it just becomes a question of how much you want +1 armor save.

 

 

Not enough to spend 10 more points on a bolter squad. Or it I spent equal points, I'd rather have the Heavy Bolter and access to Hellfire Shells. It's still not a question to me. Keep in mind we're an army where it's easy to be 1 or 2 points over, nevermind 10 per squad.