Shooting support (possible allies)

[lash144]

Hey there,

atm I´m struggeling quite a bit with the right balance between shooting and CC and I´m looking for your advice.

 

1) Do you even care about shooting support when playing Blood Angels or do you go all in on Assault?

 

2) Do you run Blood Angel shooting support? If yes which units?

 

3) Do you run Allies for shooting support? If yes which and what units? (I´m aware that Imperial Guard is a strong choice here, but due to tournament regulations I will not be able to include an efficient Guard detachment, so I´m looking for some other Imperial options here)

[Slothysaur]

From my experiences, you need shooting support. Going all in with melee will not work out too well, normally. BA have some decent shooting units, but other Space Marine chapters will do it better. That said I generally play pure BA just because I'm tired of keeping track of which red unit is BA and which isn't. If you're sticking with marines, bolter Inceptors are great. I have a soft spot for Intercessors, they're relatively sturdy and have AP-1 30" bolters, on top of some decent and cheap upgrades. Plus they're troops!

 

As far as balancing shooty/staby that's a little more "depends-on". In a 2k game I will typically take a DC blob of at least 10, ASM equipped with melta, some melee scouts and Dante. This is in conjuction with Intercessors running up the field punching if needed. This is subjective based on my local meta and play style, but I want at most 1/4 of my list to be melee.

 

Would your tournament restrictions allow you to run a knight or two? A shooty knight mixed with some mean melee BA units will often mess with an opponents target priority, as well as being a solid start to an army.

 

Edit: commas

[lash144]

So the restrictions are:

- 1750 points

- max 2 detachments (one needs to be a Batallion)

- no unit (excluding troops & transports) more than twice

- no vehicle squadrons

- max 1 LoW

 

So I basically could run a Knight, but I would limit myself pretty hard with CP and we all know how hungry Blood Angels are for those.. Our CP need is also the reason why I think that Guard would not be a good choice, because I feel like I´m forced into running 2x Batallion, but that would leave me with just 3 Guard Heavy Support choices...

 

While I agree that we can do shooting, I feel like I´m missing something because we get basically no bonuses what so ever compared to other chapters.

 

 

EDIT:

I was thinking of running 1-2 Captains and Lemartes + 15 DC for CQC btw.

[BluejayJunior]

I don't think we're really significantly worse than normal marines at shooting. Only Imperial Fists really get a bonus to shooting (and that is just ignoring cover). Ultramarines are allowed to fall back and shoot, which is effective, but Red Thirst is also applicable in that scenario for us allowing our troops to hit back harder than other marines. Granted it still depends on what the units are charged with and why they were charged. Raven Guard are -1 to hit at longer ranges which makes them more survivable, but they don't hit any harder. Salamanders get a reroll per unit, so their special weapons can hit a little more effectively. 

Granted, a unit that is shooting doesn't benefit from our Chapter Tactic, but they are hindered compared to most other marine shooting units either. 

I think a solid shooting firebase is still important. You need shooting support from units on backfield or midfield objectives that aren't on the front lines tearing into the enemy. 

[The Unseen]

Marines make bad allies for us generally, as they don't do anything we can't do ourselves.

 

Any Imperial army with cheap troops and some long ranged abilities are great.

Guard, admech, or even sisters are all great.

I'm waiting on an order from anvil industries from their Daughters campaign to run sisters alies.

 

If your running straight BA, I recommend Dev squads with a few extra bodies, with 3 lascannons and 1 heavy bolter, for hellfire shells.

Opening volley, use the strat and cherub on the bolter, get 2 2+to hit d3 mortal wound shots.

If your opponent is going first and you need those lascannons to live through their firepower, put them out of los, but able to move them 6" and get a clear shot.

Hitting on 4s turn 1 is better then being dead.

 

Interceptors are solid, either bolter (fine alone) or plasma (with a captain)

 

Intercessors make excellent mid-field objective grabbers.

Their almost as tough point for point as guardsmen, and their damage output is so low most people want to ignore then for our usual threats.

 

Scout Bikers are a hidden gem, fast, fairly durable, and create an absolute absurd amount of str4 shooting within 12".

Take them to clear chaff infantry.

 

Avoid taking single vehicles for your fire support, as those are too easy to focus out, whereas devs split fire between them and DC and such.

[Jolemai]

Fire support can still be achieved without the need for Chapter bonuses - and besides, you can always park a Captain/Lieutenant nearby if necessary.

• Quad launcher Rapiers from FW - out of sight, deadly
• Devastators - HB and/or ML in conjunction with the Signum (2+ to hit before deductions), respective stratagems (for mortal wound dealing), and a Cherub (to do it all over again)
• Scout bikes - twin bolters + shotguns (+ a combi on the Sergeant if you're permitted to use Index options) = a lot of dakka at 12"
• Stormraven/Fireraptor - lots of dakka
• Whirlwind Scorpius - this one is nuts, find an excuse for it (D2 damage, lots of dakka)

[Slothysaur]

I'd like to add an up vote for the Whirlwind Scorpius, people at my club do not like seeing it on the table. It almost gets the same look Eldar get :D

[lash144]

Thanks for all of your feedback. Devs with both mortal wounds stratagems are definitely a must for me.

Thanks especially for the tip with the Rapiers they look quite interesting indeed! Also Scouts Bikes really have a lot of Dakka :)

[Brother Crimson]

BA flyers are not any worse than any other chapter. Yes you lose reroll from Bobby G compared to ultras but as we tend to use JP hq anyway they can keep up the pace with good advance rolls. 2 stormravens is enough dakka generally.(unless your an ork)

 

As marine allies some options can be good.

 

Ultramarine for CP regen.

 

Death watch for a simple bataillon rocking a good amount of Ap-2 shots.

 

In both cases the librarian can be good too for might of heroes and null zone.

[lash144]

Good point with the CP regen. To clarify: You can have double CP regen, e.g. Veritas Vitae + Ultramarine WLT right?

 

Some other units I want to discuss, since you brought up the Stormraven. How are all of our fliers doing atm? I know that the Stormraven and Fire Raptor were very strong at some point, but I'm not quite sure how they are atm.

 

Also: Assault Canon Razorbacks: Yay or nay?

[Karhedron]

Also: Assault Canon Razorbacks: Yay or nay?

Definitely yay from me. Just tough enough to require deciated anti-tank to remove. Shooty enough to thin hordes or even plink wounds off tanks a pinch. Cheap enough that you won't cry too hard if they die. I would run at least 2 and probably with other tanks in your army so your opponent is forced to either split his anti-tank fire or concentrate on some while ignoring others.

[Brother Crimson]

Razorbacks are good but can easily be countered if you don’t screen correctly or if you don’t have assault nearby to countercharge.

 

What I like about the stormraven is that if you play against Eldar with -1 to hit you can easily get in their bubble to negate the -1. It also have spirit of the machine and can’t be locked. It is expensive tho and if they run a gazillion dark reapers it’s going to go down but every unit go down in this game.

[OrbOfAntioch]

I think if you run enough cheap units (like 30 CC scouts), a Valiant might be pretty good. It's super tough, and doesn't particularly degrade. Problem is you'd need to spend CPs to make it scary and at 1750 and that's difficult since I'm assuming you're saving some CPs to beast up a Captain. 

[lash144]

As mentioned in my second post: While I would love to take a Knight, it would would make my Blood Angels nearly unusable due to the tournament restrictions.

I was also thinking about a big unit of Hellblasters + FnP Banner. Anyone got some experience with those? How do you play them? Do you walk up the board to get in Rapid Fire range or do you camp?

[Slothysaur]

As mentioned in my second post: While I would love to take a Knight, it would would make my Blood Angels nearly unusable due to the tournament restrictions.

 

I was also thinking about a big unit of Hellblasters + FnP Banner. Anyone got some experience with those? How do you play them? Do you walk up the board to get in Rapid Fire range or do you camp?

I often use that combo and walk them up the field. I usually have them flanked by 2 intercessor squads to provide fire support and block any would be assaults on the hellblasters. I'll have Dante or a JP captain with them for rerolls as well.

[Brother Crimson]

I was also thinking about a big unit of Hellblasters + FnP Banner. Anyone got some experience with those? How do you play them? Do you walk up the board to get in Rapid Fire range or do you camp?

FNP banner + primaris works great generally speaking. However hellblaster can sometimes be wonderful or do nothing. Anything that gives -1 to hit ( raven guard, alaiotic eldar, horror tyranid horror power, death guard miasma of pestilence, and I’m probably missing some) will make the plasma explode on 1-2 because of -1 to hit, meaning you won’t overcharge or if you do it’s even more risky.

[PhilB]

I know others have advised against allying in other Marines but have you considered Dark Angels?

 

I've been toying with a list that blends some of the more fun and aggressive BA elements with a solid core of DA shootyness.

It's 2 battalions and 1 spearhead but you could easily shift it up to be 2 battalions still netting you 13 CPs, 14 if you make Azrael your warlord.

 

The first battalion is BA and comes in at around 680 pts consisting of Capt. Smash, Lemartes, 3 x 5 man Scout squads & a squad of 10 Dead Co. with JPs.

The second battalion is DA and comes in at around 600 pts consisting of Azrael, a Primaris Lt, 3 x 5 man Intercessor squads & a Primaris Ancient.

The Vanguard (which you could move into the battalion) is DA too and comes in at around 715 pts consisting of another Primaris Lt, 2 x 5 man Devastator Squads & 1 squad of 10 Hellblasters.

 

You noted you couldn't take double ups save for Troops, so 1 Devastator squad would have to go, but the advantage with the DA Devs is they don't need Cpt. support if they stand still (as they re-roll ones), park a Primaris Lt. next to them with a stalker bolt rifle and they provide long range fire support.

The Azrael, Primaris Lt, Intercessor & Hellblaster blob all walk up the mid-field to secure the middle of the board. DA have a 1 CP stratagem that allows for 3 damage per shot plasma on supercharge, which can do work. I'd give the Lt. the heavenfall blade relic DA relic, as between him & Azrael, they can provide a nasty surprise should any overzealous melee break through the Scouts and Intercessors.

The BA battalion provides your screen and a hard hitting alpha or response force, wherever you need it.

 

An added bonus of this force (in my opinion) is it complete forgoes armour, nullifying your opponent's investment in anti-tank weaponry.

[HeresyBeliever]

I know others have advised against allying in other Marines but have you considered Dark Angels?

 

I've been toying with a list that blends some of the more fun and aggressive BA elements with a solid core of DA shootyness.

It's 2 battalions and 1 spearhead but you could easily shift it up to be 2 battalions still netting you 13 CPs, 14 if you make Azrael your warlord.

 

The first battalion is BA and comes in at around 680 pts consisting of Capt. Smash, Lemartes, 3 x 5 man Scout squads & a squad of 10 Dead Co. with JPs.

The second battalion is DA and comes in at around 600 pts consisting of Azrael, a Primaris Lt, 3 x 5 man Intercessor squads & a Primaris Ancient.

The Vanguard (which you could move into the battalion) is DA too and comes in at around 715 pts consisting of another Primaris Lt, 2 x 5 man Devastator Squads & 1 squad of 10 Hellblasters.

 

You noted you couldn't take double ups save for Troops, so 1 Devastator squad would have to go, but the advantage with the DA Devs is they don't need Cpt. support if they stand still (as they re-roll ones), park a Primaris Lt. next to them with a stalker bolt rifle and they provide long range fire support.

The Azrael, Primaris Lt, Intercessor & Hellblaster blob all walk up the mid-field to secure the middle of the board. DA have a 1 CP stratagem that allows for 3 damage per shot plasma on supercharge, which can do work. I'd give the Lt. the heavenfall blade relic DA relic, as between him & Azrael, they can provide a nasty surprise should any overzealous melee break through the Scouts and Intercessors.

The BA battalion provides your screen and a hard hitting alpha or response force, wherever you need it.

 

An added bonus of this force (in my opinion) is it complete forgoes armour, nullifying your opponent's investment in anti-tank weaponry.

interesting 

[lash144]

Interesting indeed. But at this point it would be more of a DA than a BA list, which I don't want ofc.

But a Batallion of DA with a LT with CP trait and 2 bigger squads of of Devastators might work pretty good.

[Panzer]

If I were taking another Space Marine Chapter as shooting support I'd probably take Deathwatch over Dark Angels to be honest. The Plasma shenanigans are great but Deathwatch is simply better with their SIA access etc.

[Charlo]

DA sure can shoot, and Azrael giving Primaris a 4++ is downright EVIL.

[lash144]

Deathwatch really can have pretty good small arms fire with their SIA + tactics + stratagems.

While a 4++ is really good I did the math on 4++ vs 3+ / 5+ fnp against overcharged plasma on Primaris models. The latter is actually more durable.

[Remtek]

I am a big fan of 10-12 aggressors with the FNP banner, they are quite durable and a good replacement for DC as anti horde/screen. 

[Panzer]

I am a big fan of 10-12 aggressors with the FNP banner, they are quite durable and a good replacement for DC as anti horde/screen. 

 

Keep in mind tho that the MODEL has to be in range of the banner, not just the unit.

[Brother Crimson]

 

 

I am a big fan of 10-12 aggressors with the FNP banner, they are quite durable and a good replacement for DC as anti horde/screen.

Keep in mind tho that the MODEL has to be in range of the banner, not just the unit.

Still easy to do. Also « within » means it touches the aura and  « wholly within » means the entire base is in the aura of I recall correctly. In addition if you only have 1-2 models in reach of the aura you can assign wounds to them before te rest of the squad. FNP banner is good stuff.