Ancient Loyalist Dreadnoughts

[b1soul]

In BL, how many Dreadnoughts in the 41st millenium were originally SM in the Horus Heresy or Great Crusade.

 

There's Bjorn of the SW and Raguel of the BA (in the Night Lord series)...have any others ever been mentioned?

[Robbienw]

The ba codex mentions that they have some contemptors they have managed to maintain through the millennia still in service at the current 40k time. It mentions that some of the pilots of these fought on the walls of the palace and/or beside sanguinius in the great crusade era.

 

The da codex says they have some contemptors as well, but it is unknown if the pilots are from the heresy era or newer.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Salamanders had one who was lost in the Warp, but he doesn't last very long

[Morovir]

Fulminos of the Ultramarines, who went on to be the first Chapter Master of the Obsidian Glaives in the Second Founding.

[Sandlemad]

The custodes codex specifically notes a dreadnought, Venerable Ancient Hasturias Calaxxor who in life fought as a shield-captain during the siege of Terra.

[rendingon1+]

Five dreadnoughts of Angeles Encarmine. At least that's what I remember from Stromark Massacre.

[Kelborn]

Huh...interesting. Always thought that Bjorn is the only one, thus making him that ancient, "special" character.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Huh...interesting. Always thought that Bjorn is the only one, thus making him that ancient, "special" character.

Bjorn largely was, until GW had to market Contemptor Dreads to 40k audiences.

[Leonaides]

Bjorn was the oldest currently surviving dreadnought pilot. Thats why adb killed the blood angel one, to maintain bjorns status. That doesnt mean another one might be around who's 1 year younger......

[Skalpynock]

A dreadnought, though not its pilot, of the Salamanders, is known to be from the Crusade era. Bray'arth Ashmantle is encased in the Iron Dragon, the Dreadnought suit that was originally built by Vulkan to host the body of Cassian Vaughn, Legion Master of the XVIIIth legion before it was reunited with its lord.

[Tarvek Val]

I know in one of Nick Kyme's Salamanders books, a Salamanders veteran of the Heresy is unearthed (barely alive) in a suit of relic armor under mysterious circumstances. He wasn't entombed in a dreadnought, but he had survived all the way to the 41st Millennium as a survivor of the Heresy. It's been a very, very long time since I visited that series so if anything I say is incorrect, please forgive me; that being said, I believe it was explained that he had been in a coma-like state that allowed him to survive such a long span of years with little to no physical or mental exertion. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Huh...interesting. Always thought that Bjorn is the only one, thus making him that ancient, "special" character.

Bjorn largely was, until GW had to market Contemptor Dreads to 40k audiences.

 

 

Well, Bjorn is still special in that he was also around before the Siege. Raguel is dead now, and the other dreadnoughts from that time seem to be entirely "random Tactical Marine who defended important junction in the Imperial Palace", rather than "fought at the side of Russ himself, was at the Burning of Prospero, and led the Chapter after Russ left". Bjorn's still the oldest out there.

[b1soul]

Is Bjorn confirmed to be the oldest...or is it all in flux now with the introduction of these other pre-Heresy/Heresy-era pilots.

 

Bjorn was an up-and-comer during the Heresy, so it's kinda hard to believe that all of the other Heresy-era pilots were even younger during the Heresy.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Nope, Bjorn is still the oldest. Most Contemptors are still younger, it's just the chassis that's ancient. I guess we'll see it confirmed soon, given the Space Wolves are due for a Codex before too long.

[b1soul]

...so nothing has contradicted Bjorn's status since the previous SW codex, it just hasn't been confirmed recently

[Lord_Caerolion]

Basically yeah. Bjorn is still stated to be the oldest Dreadnought, the occupant having fought alongside Russ numerous times. Now we've all got access to Contemptor dreadnoughts, and the fluff for those states that some of the "dreadnoughts" had fought at the Siege, or alongside the Primarchs, but don't seem to attribute the importance to the Chapter to them that Bjorn did. 

 

My personal interpretation is that Bjorn is the only Crusade-era dreadnought pilot left, but there are certainly other chassis out there that are the same age, just as there's power armour still in use from the days of the Crusade, or ancient Land Raiders/Rhinos/Predators. There might be pilots from the Siege, just none that were inducted earlier. Basically, Bjorn was inducted into the Legion in the early/mid Crusade, was a compatriot of Russ himself, led the Legion/Chapter for a time, and is still alive. The unnamed Contemptors were inducted just before the Siege, didn't achieve great status before that, may have fought alongside Sanguinius, but weren't on a first-name basis like Bjorn/Russ etc. Still damn impressive, but Bjorn is better.

[Sandlemad]

Yeah, Bjorn's 'political significance' can't be overstated, both as a personal confidante of a primarch and first chapter master of a post-heresy first founding chapter, and as an important presence post-internment, for being the lynchpin of the Fang's defence against Magnus and for resolving the crisis with the inquisition after Armageddeon. Even if there's the odd pilot in the galaxy who was interned before/during the heresy currently sitting in the depths of a fortress-monastery (and it's a big galaxy, this doesn't seem unreasonable) they're not as significant as Bjorn. His importance comes from more than just age as a number.

[rendingon1+]

Found it:

'My brothers and I fell in battle together many thousands of years ago, before the formation of the Angels Encarmine even. We fell with an oath to the primarch unfulfilled and though our heroism earned us prolonged existence among the ranks of the Dreadnoughts, the knowledge that we did notmake good on that oath still haunts us and likely hastened the other four’s descent into madness.’

Ptolemius paused as if weighing up his next words.

‘We fell on a battlefield not unlike the one you would have us fight upon now and I can use that to the Chapter’s advantage. Ten millennia ago our mission ended in failure but today my brothers will refight that battle and where once we failed the primarch and the Legion,instead we shall atone by bringing glory to the Chapter.’

[Indefragable]

My personal interpretation is that Bjorn is the only Crusade-era dreadnought pilot left, but there are certainly other chassis out there that are the same age, just as there's power armour still in use from the days of the Crusade, or ancient Land Raiders/Rhinos/Predators.

 

 

Yea this is how I wrap my head around it as well. Especially since the corollary would mean that those Contemptor pilots' advice is actively ignored or refrained from being taken to heart. In a setting where older = better, to have a bunch of dudes who, you know, fought alongside a Primarch in the greatest battle in history not even have names or be sought after when, you know, your entire star system is about to be nom nom'ed by the 'Nids seems beyond derpalicious otherwise. 

 

I guess the Ancient and Honorable Battle Brother Maynard must have tripped over a pebble, fell on his knife cutting his krak grenades from belt which then rolled into the plasma generators of the orbital defense batteries, causing them to fire into space, damaging the drives of a Battleship which then plowed into an Orbital Space Platform, sending it spiralling off course where it would eventually detonate at the primary Mandeville point at the precise moment the largest relief fleet in history was coming out of warp. But he was the only dude left in his squad so they decided to stick him in a Contemptor anyways.

 

It makes far more sense to say that many Dreadnought chassis, rather than pilots, have been around a long time.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I more interpret it, as above, as most of the other ancient Contemptor pilots being otherwise "boring" before their interment, but during the Siege they singlehandedly held the Aquiline Hall for a day against the Iron Warriors. Still heroic, but they were only known for what got them interred, and after that haven't particular stood out beyond other dreadnoughts. Sure, they're old, and did a Heroic Thing, but it's not like they have deep and meaningful insights into everything that occurs. Sure, they're symbolic, and a link to the glory days of the Legions of old, but when you ask Bjorn about Russ, he can rattle off numerous personal anecdotes and stories about fighting side-by-side. When you ask Brother Martellus, who held the Aquiline Hall about Sanguinius, he can only respond with "well, I saw him a few times, and got to see glimpses of him fighting that Bloodthirster at the Gate, but he was, like, 3 kilometers away. He was pretty awesome though."

[rendingon1+]

"Instead let me tell you again how I held Aquiline Hall all by myself..."

[b1soul]

@rendingon1+

 

Does the book clarify what was the failed mission, other than "ten millenia ago"?

 

Is this Heresy or pre-Heresy?

[rendingon1+]

Stromark Massacre (both stories) is set in M.41.

 

No, the only thing we get is what I quoted above.

[Tarvek Val]

 

 

‘We fell on a battlefield not unlike the one you would have us fight upon now and I can use that to the Chapter’s advantage. Ten millennia ago our mission ended in failure but today my brothers will refight that battle and where once we failed the primarch and the Legion,instead we shall atone by bringing glory to the Chapter.’

 

This is mere conjecture, but there were similarities between the Stromark Civil War and the ensuing Massacre and the attempt of the Blood Angels to pacify the Signus sector during the Heresy era. Both actions were by Blood Angels, or their successors, attempting to end succession and rebellion in the respective areas of Imperial space and, from what information I can find on the two actions, similar military tactics were used as well.

 

It would certainly make sense for the Dreadnought pilots to have fallen in the battle for Signus Prime, the casualties there were certainly considerable.

[Petitioner's City]

Does it matter if Bjorn is no longer the only one? He only matters because of the historical accident of old fluff from the 90s - but much other fluff from then has changed. So we go on, and can enjoy both (a) other ancients mentioned in the books and (b) making our own ancients, as fundamentally that is the core of the hobby. For a or b, each and every single one of these ancients is pretty intriguing - each signifies some lost element of self or identity or difference from then, or perhaps some continuity.

 

Or more fascinating, perhaps old dreadnoughts especially allow the lies, myths and misrememberings of Imperial history. As the fluff seems to suggest, some of these ancients are no longer all-there or even speaking or even sane. This means possibly that Bjorn perhaps stands out for his clarity of voice, for the ease with which the old Bear does reveal his origins and truthful identity, but other pilots might not be able to do so. As such, they might be subject to others' rewriting of their identity even - maybe the dreadnought pilots aren't who they think they themselves are, or who the modern chapter thinks they are - how easily can they argue with how the current chapter historians reconstruct them as? Building on this, isn't it nice how new Abnett and Wraight fluff makes old Bjorn fluff not defunct as such, but into the legends perhaps misremembered by the chapter or Bjorn himself - adding that sense of myth all old dreadnoughts should have?