The Shark Jumped: Debating FeMarines, Primaris Too

[Jackalwolf]

For me this are the most amazing sculpts of female heads I've seen but they're a rendering and haven't seen final version:

 

https://www.shapeways.com/product/9LXLFLP8H/warfaces2-caucsian-female?optionId=65464785&li=more-from-shop

 

On terms of lore, it is not my cup of tea since in theory marines genomes are altered to mimic the Primarchs' and male genome is XX where female is XY. The X chromosome is much smaller and less complex than the Y so there's a myriad of issues when trying to replicate a gene pattern that is simply non existent.

 

From a cultural standpoint, if anyone is likely to be inclusive of women into Astartes that's the Rout, since in the Fenris culture women are warriors of equal worth to males.

 

So if I was you I'd try to find a good reason to overcome the scientific limitations and with the lore advancing now it's as plausible as ever. Remember not only geneseed is XX but the organs are vat grown and cloned, all being XX. Intersex organ transplantation, while possible, is not desirable due to a number of reasons. See this paper for reference: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4964018/

 

Ideas for the science, can mix and match several:

- Cawl created a XY template for the Astartes organs but it's been kept secret by the Echlesiarchy because marines are meant to represent our lord and saviour the Emperor.

- The particularities of Canis Helix allows for partial geneseed and organ implantation.

- A particularly badass Fenrisian shieldmaiden (see Tyra from Ashes of Prospero) just forced the priests to accept her in the trials after the population is scarce due to the events of Warzone Fenris and against all odds survived implantation, the new progenoid glands she matured in her tuned for the XY template (year 10 one can be harvested, year 50 the other).

[Jackalwolf]

Thinking about it in context... A fluff change to make women compatible with the Astartes template would have been so much easier to accept than primaris...

[Karack Blackstone]

I've given the dissenting perspective some thought, and I wanted to make sure I am clear about one thing.

 

The phrase by Dr. Ian Malcolm, from the first Jurassic Park movie, applies fully, in this case, of FeMarines: "Everyone was so impressed with whether or not they could, nobody stopped to think if they should!"

 

I really do get how the fluff cannot be just handwaved into alignment with what I want; rather, if FeMarines are to be a thing, the matter must be both approached in game and out of game with the full respect towards the player, and therefore, customer of GW, in mind, first, foremost, always, and, above all, only.

 

FeMarines are, indeed, a subject I consider to be a, "If we get FeMarines, we should also get Brothers of Battle." I agree, to a point; make both FeMarines and BoB models entirely, and only, optional. And, above all, if society attempts to bully, or, otherwise, "Convince," those playing that, "You must, because we said so," then, society is in the wrong, at that time.

 

I above all, want this on the record: if GW ever does actually do FeMarines, as I typed above, it should always and only be up to each individual player as a person to determine what if any model changes, head swaps, or, if they want to go past that, by all means, let the individual decide. In life, outside of a military situation, all anyone else can ever say to a person is advice; to claim otherwise is to become a bully, pure and simple.

 

By all means, if the players think that FeMarines requires the option to have Brothers of Battle, so be it. Just make sure both are options only. I have the personal perspective that, the relation between FeMarines and BoB are in the, "Correlation is not causation," category, by all means, as others have said to me, first and foremost, you do you!

 

Thanks for the encouragement, perspective, and in all honesty, I also want to thank those that are of the dissenting opinion. Those that do not agree with me right out of the gate are, above all, just as right as I am for themselves, and, above all in life, I get that, and hope I never lose sight of said perspective, overall.

 

Please also be thanked, those that have thus far posted in this thread, for keeping this civil. I've chosen to order the heads of Auriel, mixed Female heads, with five orders of ten each.

 

I'll have to actually do some test poses to see what I think before getting too far along, hopefully; I do plan to post pictures, in time. Just please keep in mind, I cannot at this time paint, so, don't expect painted models all that soon.

 

Edit:

 

I forgot to add, yes, no one individual is as smart as the Emperor; that typed, teamwork and cooperation can make for a decent counter to individual intelligence being lacking, overall. As well, despite that statement, too many Chefs can and oftentimes does spoil the pot. So, as always, context, and perspective, above all else.

[Sete]

Thinking about it in context... A fluff change to make women compatible with the Astartes template would have been so much easier to accept than primaris...

I thought about this a little. And yeah. Absolutely. So true man.

 

And mate, even if I disagree with FEmarines in the end, it's your army. My opinion does not weight on your decisions. Opinions are to be heard not followed.

If GW adds FEmarines I will be upset at GW for ignoring its own fluff, (but it will not be as bad as Primaris and shoehorn cawl), not you or your army. It is your project, your money, your decision. I say go for it ;)

[Gemini]

<Snarky Gemini> *snort*... seems just like the thing that Tzeentch would find hilarious... "Hey, bunch of marines over there... 'BOOM' YOU'RE GIRLS NOW! *snort* </Snarky Gemini>

[BBadger]

 

Thinking about it in context... A fluff change to make women compatible with the Astartes template would have been so much easier to accept than primaris...

I thought about this a little. And yeah. Absolutely. So true man.

 

And mate, even if I disagree with FEmarines in the end, it's your army. My opinion does not weight on your decisions. Opinions are to be heard not followed.

If GW adds FEmarines I will be upset at GW for ignoring its own fluff, (but it will not be as bad as Primaris and shoehorn cawl), not you or your army. It is your project, your money, your decision. I say go for it

 

 

"Out of shear desperation, attempting something not tried in millennia for fear of wasted gene seed, the Imperium sought to transform young women into space marines. After a horrific series of failures and a catastrophic human cost there was a success......"

 

Yeah, that's metal enough to roll with  Like anything 40K though I'd want it to be as harmful to the longevity of the Imperium as an outright success. 

[Wispy]

 

 

 

 

I think the game improving overall might well require properly fluff introduced female Astartes and Primaris,

Why? How does that 'improve' the game? Should there also be male Soroitas by that logic?

Ideally, there would be no Mister Army or Missues Army, just one, co-ed army, like stormcast.

 

But you're right, we have Sisters of Battle, making the female Marines redundant. Its a by product of the 80s and early 90s unfortunately, that they're separate. I know what I'd prefee but mingling becomes probably not worth at this point.

[OgreOnAStick]

Personally, I am perfectly fine with creative approach with model, as long as you keep it in mind that lorewise currently (and hopefully in future too) FeMarines exist solely in realm of fanfiction.

 

On that note:

While I could go on a more detailed post as to why it is generally bad idea to recruit women to active combat roles (and the quality of such recruits) and as fodder for genetically modified supersoldiers in context of 40k, as this is the SW forum, I'd like keep the scope of my post on Fenris and while at it exclude the any frothing rants about pretty princess marines who refuse to travel in proper astartes transports due to lack of leg-space. 

 

Here are a few factors to consider:

 

• The population of Fenris is tiny. As in, they're counted in single digit millions, as of Wrath of Magnus, (can't recall if it is only the tribal population or the entirety of the planet and whether or not it is post-purges) the population is around 3½ million. 
• The vast majority of the population of Fenris live in (stone age?) tribal societies that compete with each other (often bloodily) for scarce resources the planet has to offer, thus creating the high quality candidates the Folk of Fenris demand from their recruits. This often results in entire tribes being wiped out.
• The high casualties from Magnus' assault on Fenris lessens the effectiveness of the SW to keep the native fauna and warp taint in check, making the environment even more deadly than it would normally be.
• Canis Helix is only compatible with genome of Fenrisian stock. This makes out of world recruitment unfeasible.
• High rate of attrition in the process of creating astartes even for a first founding chapter legion due to fickle nature of Canis Helix and the demanding training cycle.

The planets tiny population is by itself enough to disqualify Fenris from consideration for creation of FeMarines as plucking any amounts of women of childbearing age would heavily affect population growth (and number of potential future astartes)  and in worst case doom the planet's population to a depopulation cycle. Even if they magically had a massive uptick in population they would have to practically uplift the tribes technologically to an advanced state and would have to (forcibly, which shouldn't be too hard) unite them into a singular society capable of co-operation and not killing each other due to lingering rivalries, thus robbing the recruits of their survival instincts and lower their standards of recruitment to a suitable level of replacement. Then there is the issue with Curse of the Wulfen eating into both recruits and veterans alike, although I expect Cawl Ex Machina to eject a cure out of his expansive exhaust port(s?).

This would require SW to completely uproot and reinvent their chapter culture, recruitment and training practices (along with copious use of retconjuration and DEM). In essence, this would result in the proud Folk of Fenris to become vanilla marines with a fluffy name, which would practically kill of the chapter's legion's identity and appeal (although more viking, less woof would be greatly appreciated).

 

These factors combined makes it not only incredibly unfeasible to outright suicidal for Fenris' future to pluck out any amounts of women of childbearing age to use as a (and franky, inefficient) template for creation of astartes, along with the other issues previously mentioned.

 

As a side note:

This is assuming that the FeMarines would be just a palette swap lorewise, and with 40k being what it is it is far more likely (and practical) that Imperium engages in a project to mimic Daemonculaba (Honsou, you sick puppy) and make astartes a viable (sub)race on it's own, which would bring up a host of different issues in and of itself and propably makes Manperor of Mankind (and certain vocal minority) blow a casket.

[Krakendoomcool]

@ Grieux

I think you’ve got your chromosomes back to front there buddy. Male XY and female XX. Otherwise good bit of info into the process.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 

 

I think the game improving overall might well require properly fluff introduced female Astartes and Primaris,

Why? How does that 'improve' the game? Should there also be male Soroitas by that logic?

Ideally, there would be no Mister Army or Missues Army, just one, co-ed army, like stormcast.

 

But you're right, we have Sisters of Battle, making the female Marines redundant. Its a by product of the 80s and early 90s unfortunately, that they're separate. I know what I'd prefee but mingling becomes probably not worth at this point.

 

But why is that ideal? What's wrong with having factions that are specifically male or female? Not being co-ed isn't some sin that needs correcting.

 

How is having only male Marines and female Sisters a product of the 80s/early 90s? I'd be far more inclined to say it's indicative of their inspiration, monastic orders, which are generally (and in general pop culture nigh on universally) gender segregated.

[Wispy]

Because Sister's orgins fall into the "Miss Male Character" trope. Girls instead of guys in power armour, nuns instead of monks. I tend to think it's uncreative and boring, some would and have argued that having Ms. Male Character being the only real source of female represention in 40k for a long time was a little sexist... I wouldn't go that far, but i think its fair to say 40k was lacking a female representation with unique identity for as long as it did is 'Not Ideal.' Thankfully GW has done a good job trying to change that in recent years and diffuse the sausage fest but limitations from legacy decisions remain.

 

 

The Ms. Male Character trope, for reference.

"A female version of an already established or default male character, the Ms Male Character is defined primarily by their relationship to the male counterpart through their visual properties, narrative connection, and occasionally promotional materials.

 

When the Ms Male Character or characters is an exact duplicate of the default male character or characters, she is a Distaff Counterpart."

[Karack Blackstone]

Ogre, I fully get where you're coming from, right now; the problem is, over time, as GW continues to increase the amount of fluff, the population of Fenris will change however said GW decides it must. I fully get the fact that the situation, as we know it now, is on the verge of suicide to proceed with what I plan to do, modelwise.

 

The thing is, it's my hobby, and my army is decided.

 

The fluff on the other hand, is fully, and indeed, must, be discussed to a realistic, in-setting, and sustainable conclusion, should the idea of FeMarines ever be truly considered, long term.

 

I personally don't claim to know what is best for the hobby, at this time. I do know however, that, if the population of Fenris is GW's fiat to control, they will write whatever they wish to justify, again, whatever they wish. It's their fluff, game, and, it's both their and our hobby. The hard part for me to always keep in mind is, as a friend has put it to me in the past, this entire issue is, simply put, draw a nine on the ground, and make sure it is oriented as a six to the other person. Both of those involved in the discussion are right; the resolution is the hard part.

 

Still, I fully get where others are coming from; to reiterate, if, and that's a very big IF, FeMarines are ever to be done, they must be done well, both in-setting as well as out.

 

Thanks for the continued discussion, all.

 

And, specifically, Ogre, great points; you're right, right now. In time, that may change, however GW wishes to update their fluff.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Because Sister's orgins fall into the "Miss Male Character" trope. Girls instead of guys in power armour, nuns instead of monks. I tend to think it's uncreative and boring

 

Sorry, but I just don't see that. Marines and Sisters only the most superficial 'monks and nuns' theming in common (and some gear overlap, but that's hardly unusual for Imperial factions, especially older ones), and even then, it seems a reasonable extrapolation to have some from of Nun in your quasi theocratic grimdark fascist state if you already have Monks. They could have been uncreative and boring, giving their Nuns some offscreen civilian role, or made them actual equivalents to the Marines, but they didn't. Instead they took the Sisters in their own direction, with unique fluff, aesthetic (whether you love it or loath it, it's visually distinct from the Astartes) and different in game abilities.

 

If anything surely Female Marines would be far more 'Miss Male Character' than the Sisters, as the former are literally "A female version of an already established or default male character", whereas (as far as I'm aware) the Sisters have never been defined by their relationship to the Space Marines. They've always been presented as the strong arm of the Ecclesiarchy, while the Marines sit as independent military orders. They've always been their own thing. If they were only a Distaff Counterpart to Marines, then we wouldn't be having this conversation, as female Marines would have always been a thing.

 

 

I wouldn't go that far, but i think its fair to say 40k was lacking a female representation with unique identity for as long as it did is 'Not Ideal.' Thankfully GW has done a good job trying to change that in recent years and diffuse the sausage fest but limitations from legacy decisions remain.

I must admit, I'm very confused by this. It sounds like your saying Distaff Counterparts are bad, and female representation with unique identity is a good thing. Yet 'ideally' you want female Marines added, which are by definition a Distaff Counterpart lacking a unique identity. Whereas Sisters, who actually do have a unique identity, have been part of the setting for decades but are 'not ideal'. It just seems like you're arguing backwards here. If I've misunderstood, my apologies.

 

 

 

The Ms. Male Character trope, for reference.

"A female version of an already established or default male character, the Ms Male Character is defined primarily by their relationship to the male counterpart through their visual properties, narrative connection, and occasionally promotional materials.

 

When the Ms Male Character or characters is an exact duplicate of the default male character or characters, she is a Distaff Counterpart."

 

Well, for what it's worth, TV Tropes got rid of 'Ms Male Character', because they felt it was a Distaff Counterpart. So I'm not sure that's a distinction worth making.

[spacepup]

Love the idea, it wasn't just the males in the tribes that fight on Fenris. I don't know if it's been brought up yet but Victoria miniatures has female heads as well. And I do belive they come in groups of 10 or 12. Love to see some piuctures when you have the conversions.

[Wispy]

Leif,

 

To clarify: i think sisters are Distaff Counterparts / Ms. Male Characters and dont feel they're serving 40k as a unique female centric faction as well as they could because of that. As a separate thought, i like how Stormcast is co-ed and wish Space Marines were the same way because personally i would like it if i had some lady space viking models to paint.

 

Can i cut to the chase? I meant what i meant, do you really not not understand what I'm saying or are you just nitpicking because you want to demolish a point you disagree with? This topic can be so exhausting sometimes.

[Wispy]

Made an edit to that post, to better phrase things

[Jackalwolf]

@ Grieux

I think you’ve got your chromosomes back to front there buddy. Male XY and female XX. Otherwise good bit of info into the process.

:cuss me lmao, talk about a slip.

 

The y chromosome is a short stubby primitive version of the X. XX is a much more advanced genetic setup so it'd be much easier to make a XY from an XX template than the other way around.

[BBadger]

 

@ Grieux

I think you’ve got your chromosomes back to front there buddy. Male XY and female XX. Otherwise good bit of info into the process.

me lmao, talk about a slip.

 

The y chromosome is a short stubby primitive version of the X. XX is a much more advanced genetic setup so it'd be much easier to make a XY from an XX template than the other way around.

 

 

I think there's a bit more to it than that, but if you're going for Star Trek quality fluff then sure, whatever. 

 

As for the whole distaff / Ms Male topic, I'm not sold. 

 

40K has always played with common tropes blown into absurdity. Space Wolves are Vikings in space, templars templars, squats were biker gangs, marines are monkish, and the sisters are nun's. 

 

The devs for 40K never once thought "hey, in the interest of representation we need to come up with an all female faction". It really went:

 

Dev A "Do you know what would be cool?"

 

Dev B "Nuns in space?"

 

Dev A "No, but that's genius. Lets do that!!"

 

And lo and behold the SOB were born and they fit the narrative perfectly. I read a lot of unjustified guff on the forums that somehow gets popular about how "GW created X to serve Y". I like to apply Occam's old razor to those ideas and eliminate all the unverifiable assumptions. It makes the world simpler and less... conspiratorial. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

Leif,

 

To clarify: i think sisters are Distaff Counterparts / Ms. Male Characters and dont feel they're serving 40k as a unique female centric faction as well as they could because of that.

 

OK, I personally really don't see how that fits, and I've tried to outline how/why Sisters aren't just a Distaff Counterpart to Marines. I've even seen it argued in other female Marines threads when it's been suggested to use allied Sisters to fill the 'I want girls in my army niche' that Sisters don't work because they're too different from Marines (obviously this varies on a person by person basis). But hey, I

 

 

As a separate thought, i like how Stormcast is co-ed and wish Space Marines were the same way because personally i would like it if i had some lady space viking models to paint.

Right, I think I might have missed that this was meant to be a separate point, especially as you started out saying that Female Marines should have been present from the start instead of Sisters being their own thing. Fair enough. Can't say I agree, but that doesn't really matter.

 

 

Can i cut to the chase? I meant what i meant, do you really not not understand what I'm saying or are you just nitpicking because you want to demolish a point you disagree with? This topic can be so exhausting sometimes.

No, I was genuinely confused.

 

I got involved in this thread to query the idea that female Marines would automatically 'improve' the game, an idea which I fundamentally disagree with. There's nothing inherently right or wrong with a work of fiction (let alone a subset of that fiction) being predominantly male/female/black/white/anything  or 'diverse' (and I wish the modern trend of getting so hung up on it, from all sides, would stop), what matters is the quality of the work, and how well it fits with established canon (where appropriate). The primary drive when creating something new should always be 'This would be cool/interesting/compelling!' rather than 'in the interest of representation, we need X'.

[PeteySödes]

Man, good idea or bad idea Karack, get that rhetoric ready, this is going to be discussed 75% of the time you bring your army anywhere.

 

I’m already exhausted. :D

[Guest Triszin]

You know I was thinking.

 

What if cawl/others found a way to make faux primaris Marines from female candidates.

 

And they were simply added to the ranks of the sisters of battle.

 

Sisters now have classic troops with heavy support Marines.

 

Then gw could do a sisters list from every world, heck, fenris could have a tribe of sisters.

 

The trick with sisters is making them be different from Marines and Astra lists and equipments

[Yoyo ninja]

I was thinking of a cool story arch. If gillyman decided to reintroduce the Imperial Truth, and the Ecclesiarcy fear loosing their power and influence. So they gene enhance the Sisters to be able to combat Marines. There could be either a secret war between the two for the control of the Imperium. Or there could be a full on all out civil war.

 

It would be far more interesting to me than female marines and is still justifiable in the fluff as the technology exists to gene enhance people in the Imperium.

[BBadger]

You know I was thinking.

 

What if cawl/others found a way to make faux primaris Marines from female candidates.

 

And they were simply added to the ranks of the sisters of battle.

 

Sisters now have classic troops with heavy support Marines.

 

Then gw could do a sisters list from every world, heck, fenris could have a tribe of sisters.

 

The trick with sisters is making them be different from Marines and Astra lists and equipments

 

Sisters are the military arm of the ecclesiarchy, an organisation most chapters don't see eye to eye with. Your idea would require Space Wolves to fall in line with the Faith Militant.

 

QQ. Are Sisters still the Ordo Hereticus' armed force of choice, or was that retconned? 

[TiguriusX]

The fluff already permits body modification to get a SM statline (think assassins and kasper hawser)

 

So with hand wavium it isn't far fetched...it is jut a slightly different process. but in game terms you get female space marines

 

I have female assassin models and i say they are fenrisian women of valor who were enhanced by the flesh shapers and serve specialized roles in my army

[Yoyo ninja]

The fluff already permits body modification to get a SM statline (think assassins and kasper hawser)

 

So with hand wavium it isn't far fetched...it is jut a slightly different process. but in game terms you get female space marines

 

I have female assassin models and i say they are fenrisian women of valor who were enhanced by the flesh shapers and serve specialized roles in my army

That was my thought. They don't need to be Space Marines to be genetically enhanced. Astarties are implanted with gene seed, but there would be other ways to boost body performance. Enhancing the Sisters gives you female super soldiers with out killing the fluff.

 

That's where I was going with the story line, gives them a good reason and would tell an interesting story.