The Shark Jumped: Debating FeMarines, Primaris Too

[Schlitzaf]

So coming late the conversation and just something to say based on what I read;

Primaris and Cawl, you can hate, dislike or otherwise. Implementation could leave something to be desired but the biggest point about Primaris, is they were needed. Like it or not, tabletop espacially, the MEQ Statline was useless, the Bolter was useless, and more. Now more to the topic. There is no reason technologically the Imperium pre-heresy or Emperor modified gene seed for compatibility with the female body.

 

The reason, that he did not was the untouchable gene. Women were and are apparently far more likely (and/or Men simply cannot) manifest that gene. The process of becoming space marine has a high attrition rate, and likely results in losing a prospective null if one attempts the process.

 

Now the other reason, for me, is what does it add? Primaris, I imagine as GW’s meta commentary on game state, and represent both a new era, while stagnating. The hope and reinforcements for the Imperium, were born 10,000 years ago. While that time was different to modern 40k, it doesn’t represent an advancement it represents a regression. Primaris are new but also old. A basic example is currently in canon the Templars believe the Emperor is a God, Primaris Templars come from the era where Imperial Truth was dominant. Now Female Marines?

 

I like to ask, those asking the question, if your chapter master was female would and should the story change? Bjorn? If the answer to yes is both, what is the change? If the answer is yes and then no. Why?

 

No this isn’t a question because “anti-diversity” but because a female astartes is just that; an astartes likewise is also true with Primaris. Now an example of this done well. Justice League with Hawkgirl and John Stewart. While in many stories Stewart could been Hal and Hawkgirl be Hawkman, but some needed Stewart, an African American, or his existence didn’t change the core story but added to it.

 

The best case was Justice Guild Episodes, where Hawkgirl and Stewart dealt with sexism and rascism explicitly and implicitly. The story was about relishing in the 2nd Age and the stories that came before DCAU. But those moments while not changing the story made it deeper. Also by showing our heroes are not perfect but being perfect is not a requirement to be a hero.

 

Now back to female marines, changing for sake of diversity is not wrong innately onto itself (the other reason the two noted characters were added was for diversity). But the question should be what happens next? If you want diversity for diversity, are just making a checkmark or is there a next step? Another good example is that protagonists Squad from Wonder Women. Could the entire squad been Caucasian male and story be no different? Yes. But one of the strongest moments is when our hero asks “why are you fighting?” And the crew responds “Money”. Each member save Roger was an oppressed or stigmized group by caucasians. Which tells us exactly why they don’t care. But when they decide to help regardless of money that speaks volumes more than if were all Western Europeans.

 

If you believe stories become stronger by inclusion go ahead. And as others have said it’s your models. But I ask why? Not why in a ‘dumb’ idea why, but why do you think the story of ‘your Dudes’ become stronger by the being the story of ‘your Dudes and Ladies’. That all said good luck! Is your toy soldiers at the end of the day.

[Leif Bearclaw]

The reason, that he did not was the untouchable gene. Women were and are apparently far more likely (and/or Men simply cannot) manifest that gene. The process of becoming space marine has a high attrition rate, and likely results in losing a prospective null if one attempts the process.

 

 

Something of a tangent, but what's the fluff basis/source for this? It's one of the things that peeved me about Inferno was they didn't provide any explanation for why the SoS were an all female organisation (unless I royally missed something). Getting started by a uniquely 'fortunate' planetary population that had a female focussed culture and a high incidence of Untouchables? Sure, thing. But why deliberately halve your recruitment pool by mono-gendering after establishment? Although male untouchables definitely exist, as seen in Culexus operatives, BL characters like Jurgen and Frauka and a comment in one of the FW Heresy books that the Astartes and/or Custodes creation processes have killed any Untouchable it was tried on. Given the rarity of Untouchables (generally given as an order of magnitude rarer than psykers, who are already pretty rare), it just seems a weird constraint, especially given the Importance of the role the SoS were given in the pre-Heresy Imperium. Sure, some Untouchables would be sent to the Culexus (and even that's fanon, as far as I'm aware), but are there enough Temple operatives/such a high attrition rate amongst Temple recruits to necessitate all male Untouchables? Hardly a 'big deal' as far as the setting goes, but if there's some fluff to help justify it, I'd like to know.

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

The reason, that he did not was the untouchable gene. Women were and are apparently far more likely (and/or Men simply cannot) manifest that gene. The process of becoming space marine has a high attrition rate, and likely results in losing a prospective null if one attempts the process.

 

 

Something of a tangent, but what's the fluff basis/source for this? It's one of the things that peeved me about Inferno was they didn't provide any explanation for why the SoS were an all female organisation (unless I royally missed something). Getting started by a uniquely 'fortunate' planetary population that had a female focussed culture and a high incidence of Untouchables? Sure, thing. But why deliberately halve your recruitment pool by mono-gendering after establishment? Although male untouchables definitely exist, as seen in Culexus operatives, BL characters like Jurgen and Frauka and a comment in one of the FW Heresy books that the Astartes and/or Custodes creation processes have killed any Untouchable it was tried on. Given the rarity of Untouchables (generally given as an order of magnitude rarer than psykers, who are already pretty rare), it just seems a weird constraint, especially given the Importance of the role the SoS were given in the pre-Heresy Imperium. Sure, some Untouchables would be sent to the Culexus (and even that's fanon, as far as I'm aware), but are there enough Temple operatives/such a high attrition rate amongst Temple recruits to necessitate all male Untouchables? Hardly a 'big deal' as far as the setting goes, but if there's some fluff to help justify it, I'd like to know.

I knew I forgot something I meant to put a caveat that was a statement I read here on BnC another frater commenting on a moment showcasing the Emperor pragmaticism and how much he valued Nulls, it was a recent release the discussion was about (master of mankind likely).

[rendingon1+]

Why do people want femarines after all? Is it some gender philosophy/represntation thing? Just curious.

 

Also what are the fluff reasons?

[GrFlur]

Why do people want femarines after all? Is it some gender philosophy/represntation thing? Just curious.

 

Also what are the fluff reasons?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield-maiden

[Guest]

Why do people want femarines after all? Is it some gender philosophy/represntation thing? Just curious.

Also what are the fluff reasons?

Recent book has Arjac and a Fenrisian woman talking about it. Arjac really respected her as showed bravery against some wyrm.

 

 

 

‘We have a saying,’ she said, the shadow of her hood dancing across her gaunt face in the torchlight. ‘The water that does not flow becomes ice.’

 

Further down.

 

 

The children of your town…?’ He asked the question with circumspection, knowing nothing of Tyra’s family circumstance.

‘Some remain,’ she replied and shrugged. ‘We will keep the cold of the ice nights at bay with their replenishment. What of the Sky Warriors? Your sagas of lament must grow by the season.’

‘Just give us strong, smart and brave lads and the Sons of Russ will endure.’

‘Just sons?’ said Tyra, her humour edged with a hard look. ‘Perhaps there is more water that must learn to flow.’

Arjac looked at this fierce woman, the sharp spear held easily in her hand, and recalled that she had overcome her fear not with psychodoctrination but raw courage. She had been the first to run to aid him against the wyrm, whether he needed her or not. The spirit of Fenris was in all of its people, elder and child, man and woman. He had seen first-hand that Roboute Guilliman had brought back miracle warriors from the time of the Allfather Abroad. Space Marines moulded from even sharper steel. If that was possible, anything was. He laughed at the thought.

Tyra frowned at him, thinking he mocked her. He calmed his humour and bowed his head in apology, eyes never leaving hers.

‘Perhaps,’ he said.

[rendingon1+]

Gav Thorpe strikes again. I stopped reading the book after this.

 

Seems this discussion is not for me lol.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Just curious which book that is as I haven't read it.

[TiguriusX]

ashes of prospero

[TiguriusX]

 

 

Why do people want femarines after all? Is it some gender philosophy/represntation thing? Just curious.

 

Also what are the fluff reasons?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield-maiden

Of all the SM variants the Space Wolves are uniquely situated to move forward with it.

 

Space Wolves are based on an actual culture that included shield maidens and gave us the idea of valkyries instead of banning women from participation.

 

Many SW players are not here for wolfy wolf mc werewolf and prefer the viking in space concept with all that entails. One of those things just so happens to include female warriors and meritocracy for combat prowess.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Of all the SM variants the Space Wolves are uniquely situated to move forward with it.

 

Space Wolves are based on an actual culture that included shield maidens and gave us the idea of valkyries instead of banning women from participation.

 

Many SW players are not here for wolfy wolf mc werewolf and prefer the viking in space concept with all that entails. One of those things just so happens to include female warriors and meritocracy for combat prowess.

 

Isn't that basically a myth though? While there are example of combatant Norse women, as far as I'm aware it was always in a 'the men are away, defend the home' context, akin to the women of the Samurai class in Feudal Japan, rather than 'we're going a raiding ladies, hop in the longboat'. I'm unaware of any evidence that paints Viking era Scandinavia as 'meritocratic' as we understand it (if they were I'd expect a lot more evidence for it than what is known, for example it's exactly the sort of thing I'd expect something like the Anglo-Saxon chronicle to mention, as it'd be so alien to the Christian Anglo Saxons). If you want a historical 'poster child' for female combatants, the Scythians or Sarmatians seem to be far better fit than the Norse (as there appears to be proper archaeological backing here, as well as more presence in period records).

 

Sorry if I'm sounding harsh here, but it seems to me there'd be just as much validity on saying 'The Minotaurs are uniquely suited to introduce female Marines because they're based on an actual culture that included the idea of Amazons'.

 

While I maintain the female Marines should not be implemented, introducing them for the SWs only (or even first, like a timed exclusive) would be even worse imo.  If they do it, it should be like Primaris, rolled out across the board. Having FeMarines be SW only would only make an already franchise-sundering change more divisive imo.

[TiguriusX]

 

 

Of all the SM variants the Space Wolves are uniquely situated to move forward with it.

 

Space Wolves are based on an actual culture that included shield maidens and gave us the idea of valkyries instead of banning women from participation.

 

Many SW players are not here for wolfy wolf mc werewolf and prefer the viking in space concept with all that entails. One of those things just so happens to include female warriors and meritocracy for combat prowess.

 

Isn't that basically a myth though? While there are example of combatant Norse women, as far as I'm aware it was always in a 'the men are away, defend the home' context, akin to the women of the Samurai class in Feudal Japan, rather than 'we're going a raiding ladies, hop in the longboat'. I'm unaware of any evidence that paints Viking era Scandinavia as 'meritocratic' as we understand it (if they were I'd expect a lot more evidence for it than what is known, for example it's exactly the sort of thing I'd expect something like the Anglo-Saxon chronicle to mention, as it'd be so alien to the Christian Anglo Saxons). If you want a historical 'poster child' for female combatants, the Scythians or Sarmatians seem to be far better fit than the Norse (as there appears to be proper archaeological backing here, as well as more presence in period records).

 

Sorry if I'm sounding harsh here, but it seems to me there'd be just as much validity on saying 'The Minotaurs are uniquely suited to introduce female Marines because they're based on an actual culture that included the idea of Amazons'.

 

While I maintain the female Marines should not be implemented, introducing them for the SWs only (or even first, like a timed exclusive) would be even worse imo.  If they do it, it should be like Primaris, rolled out across the board. Having FeMarines be SW only would only make an already franchise-sundering change more divisive imo.

 

 

I am not a historian so I can't go into the specifics you are probably asking for

 

I am aware of artwork depicting norse women in conjunction with battlefields (i.e., actual participants in fighting garb instead of observers)

 

I am also aware of burial excavations finding women with weapons (axes and spears)

 

To this layperson that seems to be more than simply defending the home while the men were away

 

I'm not saying norse women made up 50% of the fighting force.  But it was not a taboo concept.

 

Even if norse women were just a minority on the battlefield it was still completely unheard of compared to many other cultures.  I think spartan women had good standing in their society but even they did not participate in actual combat.

 

As for fluff it fits in perfectly with the current state of Fenris as detailed in Ashes of Prospero

 

Desperate times call for desperate measures and mortal dangers facing a person tend to help breakdown outdated beliefs and practices if they might get everyone killed

 

Arjac was truly pondering the concept when faced by this warrior tribes woman

 

I'm sure someone else on here has a better background to continue this conversation so I will bow out for them if you have further questions

[Bjorn Firewalker]

As for fluff it fits in perfectly with the current state of Fenris as detailed in Ashes of Prospero

 

Desperate times call for desperate measures and mortal dangers facing a person tend to help breakdown outdated beliefs and practices if they might get everyone killed

 

A better solution would be to do as the Death Korps of Krieg does, and clone aspirants. If the aspirant's body accepts the gene-seed, it's proof you can get multiple Space Wolves from his bloodline; if it doesn't, well, the Iron Priests can always use the clones to manufacture more servitors.

 

Creating female Space Wolves when the process of creating an Astartes is said to render a person sterile, and Fenris is suffering from a severe decline in its human population? That's literally killing the golden goose.

[TiguriusX]

many space wolf recruits are saved from dying rather than pulled from the active population

 

whether it be simple wounds from tribal warfare or a fight with one of the native fenrisian beasts the recruit can usually be saved with current technology available

 

there is a big belief in fluff not to interfere with the normal life cycle on fenris

 

the ragnar books cover some of this

[Guest]

 

As for fluff it fits in perfectly with the current state of Fenris as detailed in Ashes of Prospero

Desperate times call for desperate measures and mortal dangers facing a person tend to help breakdown outdated beliefs and practices if they might get everyone killed

A better solution would be to do as the Death Korps of Krieg does, and clone aspirants. If the aspirant's body accepts the gene-seed, it's proof you can get multiple Space Wolves from his bloodline; if it doesn't, well, the Iron Priests can always use the clones to manufacture more servitors.

Creating female Space Wolves when the process of creating an Astartes is said to render a person sterile, and Fenris is suffering from a severe decline in its human population? That's literally killing the golden goose.

It's more than just that it's also quality of fitness so that the person is even able to survive the process. This is why deathworlds have a better chance of producing Marines despite having low population. Even then cloning process for DKoK isn't perfect and might cause tiny differences which could mean that the clone isnt suitable. So you have clones which still may not be suitable and you have to train them from youth to prepuberty to get maybe 1 marine. That is even more resources for 1 marine.

 

Remember SW are not taking living men, they are normally taking those that are doomed to die. They do not hold trials like the BAs, as their death is the trial. They are akin to Valkyries in that regard. Their death leads to the halls of the fang and eternal battle.

 

As for taking females is killing the golden goose. I have never read anything about how wives a Fenrisian man can have. Maybe the culture states only 1 wife. Therefore if there is 1mil men and 2mil women, only 1 million couples. If we take only men that would be taking the golden goose, as there is 1mil unwed females that would not generate children. So in that situation men are the golden goose...

[Ratherdashing]

Space Wolves are based on Fantasy Pop Culture Vikings anyway, not real ones. Cool trumps realism and Fantasy Pop Culture Vikings have shieldmaidens. So why should there be female Space Wolves? For diversity? For realism? To bolster the ranks? No. There should be Lady Space Wolves because Lady Space Wolves look cool and Rule of Cool is the only test that matters.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I've removed a series of posts that were either borderline-problems-waiting-to-teeter-into-problems or problems-worthy-of-earning-my-melta.

 

This topic has lasted longer than I expected, toed the line longer than I expected, and as long as any social commentary worthy of 4chan stays off of this thread, can continue existing in our happy halls.

 

Please be excellent to one another.

 

Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

B&C Moderator of the Fang.

[Schlitzaf]

In regards to space marines of the female variety, I would ask, why not? If your answer is “it’s always been this way” then that is not an appropriate reason to never change something, and I would hazard you are probably not happy with how the world is these days.

 

If the answer is some form of “the gene thereapy is too exclusive/women can’t survive the process/the science isn’t there yet”, then I would say look no further than the lore/rule bending GW performed with Primaris marines. It’s a science fantasy/fiction setting, the writers can do whatever they want whenever they want.

 

If the answer is “I like my Wolves, Templars, Guard, etc as small male brotherhood, then great! You can have all men in your army and the presence of others having women shouldn’t bother you in the least.

 

If the answer is “I don’t think women should or could be space marines because they’re inferior, well then you have an issue with misogyny and I can’t really help you there.

 

So I ask again in regards to female space marines, why not?

Because why? The question isn’t why not but why? Why change what has always been? The answer isn’t because “why not change”? Change for sake of change is a recipe for diseaster while changing for purpose of a better story is wortwhile. Diversity is not a reason it’s an end result. I point to the examples in Justice League DCAU I already examined.

 

Bruce asked why? And he found the answer “cast diversity for sake of better conversation between characters and having easier character recognization”. Further transgender women (a person born a biological man who is a women in her mind) can become a space marine already. So if having a female mindset as an Astartes is already possible. And so the question I ask thou replace a character, any character who is an astartes in your favorite space marine story and favorite character.

 

Make them a female. Have them be a women. If they were that, does the story change? Should the story change? The answer to both those questions must both be yes. Or both be no. For why females marines, my answer is why? Beside diversity for sake of diversity what does it add to story?

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Simply put, equality, FeMarines, both Astartes and Primaris, never done lightly. Why? Women that can meet the same standards as a man should be allowed to fight, too. How? Well, as a work in progress, I think really that the result for a FeMarine must be close enough to count as either Astartes or Primaris, but, the path should be meaningfully different.

House Escher has the path you seek.

In the 8th edition relaunch of Necromunda, House Escher got a few tweaks. They were now stated to specialize in exotic chemicals and bio-agents; tonics, drugs, elixirs, gene-mods and a vast array of other bio-pharmaceutical products. Their Space Amazon status was even directly attributed to some kind of genetic damage from dealing with these concoctions, and their menfolk are now completely out of the picture - they even use bio-pharmaceutical archeotech (with a little help from House Van Saar) to reproduce, with strange drugs that can induce parthenogenesis (asexual, perhaps even homosexual) pregnancy. This makes their eternal rivalry with House Goliath develop a layer of extra irony; Goliath depends on Escher-produced stimms, gene-tweaks, hormone mods and other bio-chemical products to create and sustain their unnaturally enhanced, augmented physiques.

In short, we don't need to scream, "Female Space Marines for diversity!" like the talentless hacks working for Marvel Comics now; we just have to use some imagination.

 

Let's call the women warriors "Ravens," after a kenning for "Valkyries," so Space Wolves fans won't accuse us of ripping off the identities of Sons of Russ. How can the Ravens match Space Wolves in Strength, Toughness, and Initiative? The Strength and Initiative are thanks to House Escher's genetic enhancements- which only work on women, the way gene-seed only works on men- the Toughness is thanks to the AdMech's augmetic enhancements.

 

Where did Fenrisian women get House Escher and AdMech enhancements? One of the Inquistors who fought in the Months of Shame, counted House Escher and AdMech members among her retinue. Her ship was destroyed during the Siege of Fenris, forcing her and her retinue to board a savior pod, which landed on a Fenrisian island. The island was was predominantly populated by women who hid to avoid being seized as prizes, when an enemy tribe attacked it and killed their menfolk. When the Inquisitorial fleet left the Fenris System, the Inquisitor was marooned; to survive, she ordered her retinue to provide the island's inhabitants with genetic and augmetic enhancements, creating an army to defend her until she could summon help and transportation off Fenris.

 

Years later, the Inquisitor and her retinue finally left Fenris, leaving behind some of the archeotech used to implant the enhancements. The Fenrisian tribe traded with the Island of the Iron Masters (an AdMech enclave on Fenris, described in William King's novel) for materiel to keep the archeotech in working condition, creating generations of women warriors willing and able to "fight the good fight."

 

There: Female "count as" Space Wolves who don't violate canon regarding who can receive gene-seed, and don't overshadow traditional Space Wolves' accomplishments (which would piss off traditional Space Wolves fans to no end); whose culture, while strongly Fenrisian, is different enough that people won't simply dismiss them as "Space Wolves in drag."

[Karack Blackstone]

 

In regards to space marines of the female variety, I would ask, why not? If your answer is “it’s always been this way” then that is not an appropriate reason to never change something, and I would hazard you are probably not happy with how the world is these days.

 

If the answer is some form of “the gene thereapy is too exclusive/women can’t survive the process/the science isn’t there yet”, then I would say look no further than the lore/rule bending GW performed with Primaris marines. It’s a science fantasy/fiction setting, the writers can do whatever they want whenever they want.

 

If the answer is “I like my Wolves, Templars, Guard, etc as small male brotherhood, then great! You can have all men in your army and the presence of others having women shouldn’t bother you in the least.

 

If the answer is “I don’t think women should or could be space marines because they’re inferior, well then you have an issue with misogyny and I can’t really help you there.

 

So I ask again in regards to female space marines, why not?

Because why? The question isn’t why not but why? Why change what has always been? The answer isn’t because “why not change”? Change for sake of change is a recipe for diseaster while changing for purpose of a better story is wortwhile. Diversity is not a reason it’s an end result. I point to the examples in Justice League DCAU I already examined.

 

Bruce asked why? And he found the answer “cast diversity for sake of better conversation between characters and having easier character recognization”. Further transgender women (a person born a biological man who is a women in her mind) can become a space marine already. So if having a female mindset as an Astartes is already possible. And so the question I ask thou replace a character, any character who is an astartes in your favorite space marine story and favorite character.

 

Make them a female. Have them be a women. If they were that, does the story change? Should the story change? The answer to both those questions must both be yes. Or both be no. For why females marines, my answer is why? Beside diversity for sake of diversity what does it add to story?

 

 

Schlitzaf, with all due respect, correlation is not causation.

 

Both must be yes or both must be no is actually a variant of my above point: no already existing character should suddenly become female.

However, new characters that might one day emerge that were female, then became post-human, as some in setting fluff terms them, might actually get to HQ status, one day.

 

I get where you're coming from, overall. The real problem in my mind is that, both answers must be the same is actually in its own way a false premise when speaking logic terms. If A, then B is the the same as, If A, then B is A, why have the discussion of B at all? That's more the point here; no already existing character, even at that point a basic Astartes or Primaris should suddenly become female.

 

If a female of either Astartes or Primaris stock one day get to a leadership position, then, and only then, should there be an original female character in the fluff.

[Schlitzaf]

Because if the answer is x character was female

Then No Story wouldn’t have changed but yes the story should have changed. Means you are worsening the story for the sake of inclusion. Sense the gender of the character wouldn’t have mattered.

 

If the answer is Yes story would have changed, then no it shouldn’t change. That means by doing so you create a narrative which cheapens the overall story by enforcing a weaker narrative

 

If the answer is the story would not have changed, and it shouldn’t change if the character was female. You have found a gender neutral role that having a different gender could deepen the reading of the story without changing the core reading of the narrative itself

 

If the answer is yes the story would change and yes the story should be changed, that means the story is being improved because the new character fundamentally changed the dynamic of the various scenes and because the story should change, those changes would be for the better.

 

So it’s not a binary the reason both answers must be no or both answers yes. Is you are attempting to force diversity for the sake of diversity not for the sake of narrative. Like the point here is not these character magically become female.

 

It’s if they were always female from day one how would the story been affected.

[OgreOnAStick]

Apologies in advance for the wall of text, I've literally written this for hours (on-off) with frequent distractions and for some reason unable to hit 'add reply' without adding more replies. Also, I am far too tired to further scan the text for anything to sanitize, there really shouldn't be any.

 

The rub is doing this right, just like anything else. While you might have missed it, there is a post from me that attempts to address the reasoning behind my thought process here. To type it out, I want FeMarines because, while not exactly based in reality due to the current lack of evidence of female Vikings, the premise of FeMarines as mentioned in Ashes of Prospero, while it could be done, must be done well. I am curious how to see said FeMarines done well, in the fluff, if at all.

 

 

This doesn't really seem as a reason as to why specifically female astartes, as more of a speculation of what kind of female astartes could be plausible as an archetype, and highlighting the importance of good writing, which should be the norm, rather than exception. Not to mention that most authors are unable to write powerful women without having to resort to them kick multiple strong men's arse without breaking a sweat or by disregarding her gender entirely.

 

Also, mind pointing me out to where the original explanation is? Seems that I'm blind.

 

The problem is, per my post above, just doing fluff because reasons is never good enough, and it must never be good enough to just go, "Boom, FeMarines! Cope, if you hate it!"

 

 

Agreed, unfortunately most members of certain vocal minority seem to think that claiming diversity without backing it up with anything is enough of a reason to do something. In my opinion it is not, as I am of the line of thought that diversity is an organic longterm by-product of freedom, rather than a goal itself and when done forcibly it only breeds resentment. But thats another discussion entirely.

 

That's the point here; there must never be handwavium for something as possibly groundbreakingly important of a change in the society of the Imperium as this concept. Yes, I want to see how FeMarines can be done, and well; there's again nothing past equality and, the list, which I will post again, just to be clear, both to myself and others:

 

- FeMarines are a touchy subject in setting, too

- Only female warriors that are in the same situation as a male recruit will be considered (Edit: Or, per the same rules as male recruits, in all cases)

- There will likely need to be a small to decent, possibly significant, regimen of genetic engineering and treatments that will prepare the female recruit to become an Aspirant

- Only those that make it, same as the men, will make it to Blood Claw

- After that, they're no different than a male Astartes once they get to BC

 

 

One point I'd like to add on the list: The chapter homeworld's ecology must be able to sustain the loss in population growth rate to allow for the recruitment in the first place, minimum 1B+ pop, preferably close to current IRL terra levels of population (remember that the idea of using women as regular troops rather than of defensive or that of last measure is very much a recent one.)

 

On the first point, I doubt that it has been brought up enough to warrant it to be a touchy subject in universe. Although, anything new tends to be branded heretical by the Inquisition.

 

As far as my knowledge goes (please do point out more references, if there are any), the female astartes topic has been alluded to twice,  

Once by Malcador's snarky remark of making the Primarchs sisters to make them more civil  (although there are plenty of scientific data on women being equally if not more likely to engage in destructive rivalries rather than constructive).

And a second time in Ashes with Arjac toying with the idea in the conversation. First problem here is that Arjac isn't a Priest or a Magos Biologis so he wouldn't know much in detail about the geneseed's function and creation of astartes, so it shouldn't be taken too seriously, maybe in future books he mentions it to Ulrik or some other Priest who might be able to shed more light on the matter. Secondly, the dialogue reads a lot like the author is deliberately trying to make a point or inject his own opinion into lore, or worse, trying to force GWs hand in the matter. Either way, it comes out as a bit preachy from the author, oh and the book has plenty of lore errors so anything contained should be taken with a lot of salt. 

 

On the second point: Please use the same bar for women as for males. There would be no point in recruiting them at all if the bar was lower.

 

As for the last point, if they are equal to regular astartes, why bother going with the more complex route? Human life is cheap, time and resources are not. Aesthetics wise, we already have women in power armour in SOB and SOS (the latter really needs some fleshing out as in my opinion they are way too close to the former thematically). Well, assuming they even look like women after the genetic and surgical modifications. Not to mention, we already have artistic freedom to build the armies as we please

 

And since I am a slow writer (the train bouncing around and dislodging the laptop battery doesn't exactly help either) you replied to some of the points, so I'll just add the new stuff to the same post.

 

 

 

 I won't lie, I do think my internal bias is that, FeMarines in concept sounds great, because it increases the fighting force numbers

 

As a concept, I'm completely fine with the Girls with Guns trope, however we already have that in SoB and Imperial Guard (lorewise, GW is just dragging its heels to bring up the headswaps).

As for increasing numbers of fighting bodies, let me be a devils advocate for a moment: So does mandatory motherhood.

Imperium isn't exactly lacking in numbers, however Fenris specifically is direly in need of increased population growth to keep the Folk of Fenris afloat with fresh recruits.

 

 

 

I am inclined to equality; more men are raised by society to be warriors, it's the societal male ethos

 

When talking about equality it is important to note that no two human are the same, yet they are equal as humans and should be afforded the equal opportunity, but not that of outcome. In the current case: women should have the opportunity to become warriors, just not astartes due to established physical limitations. The same applies to men getting shot down from becoming SoB due to in-universe legal reasons.

And well, Imperial Guard as a meatgrinder employer doesn't give a hoot about one's gender.

 

Then there is the IRL evolutionary (both biological and psychological) aspect that should apply to 40k as well, which has resulted in males being on the path to become more efficient hunters (and as a byproduct, warriors) to which females have contributed to by selecting the most competent fathers to their children.

 

I personally think that a woman that can be both a Lady and a Warrior is hot. However, that's me; others are more than able to have a differing and likely dissenting opinion there.

 

 

Nah, plenty of people out there who think warrior women are attractive. Most writers however tend to focus too much on the warrior aspect and ignore the woman bit, which in turn makes them bland as characters. On that note: despite whatever the modern puritans from both political left and right say, showing sexuality isn't a bad thing, but thats subjective to personal taste and stiffness of the wooden objects implanted in one's rectum.

 

 

why should she be denied the right to fight for her people across the stars?

 

 

To be frank. Because they can create the one absolutely essential thing that males can not: Children.

And until cloning becomes the standard for reproduction, that will be cruel reality.

Considering that Fabius Bile is the leading expert on said subject, and even his clones have major flaws, although it is unclear whether these are due to insanity, imperfect techniques or entirely intentional.

 

 

In regards to space marines of the female variety, I would ask, why not? If your answer is “it’s always been this way” then that is not an appropriate reason to never change something, and I would hazard you are probably not happy with how the world is these days.  

 

Change for the sake of change is also a bad reason to anything.

 

If the answer is some form of “the gene thereapy is too exclusive/women can’t survive the process/the science isn’t there yet”, then I would say look no further than the lore/rule bending GW performed with Primaris marines. It’s a science fantasy/fiction setting, the writers can do whatever they want whenever they want.

 

The lore around pretty princess marines was badly executed and wholly unnecessary. Just because something can change, does not mean it should.

Oh and the existence of Primaris marines actually works against FeMarines. It took Cawl forever to create minor adjustments to the astartes geneseed, along with draining valuable resources of indetermined quantities from the Imperial warmachine. Does the Imperium have time and resources to start another project of such massive scale?

 

If the answer is “I like my Wolves, Templars, Guard, etc as small male brotherhood, then great! You can have all men in your army and the presence of others having women shouldn’t bother you in the least.

 

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with all-boys/girls clubs. Claiming otherwise is a violation of their freedom of association.

 

If the answer is “I don’t think women should or could be space marines because they’re inferior, well then you have an issue with misogyny and I can’t really help you there.

 

 

Arguing that males and females are exact same is also a poor argument.

As for the claim of misogyny:

It is not misogynistic, if

    1) It is true (women in average are less physically apt than men and unlike men, they are not expendable and according to US Marines they get injured more frequently and are worse shots, thus less suited for military duty) 

    2) You don't treat women any differently despite the belief.

However, as the Imperium is far from perfect society and are desperate, can they afford to not be practical? Also we shouldn't judge the Imperium on today's morality.

 

So I ask again in regards to female space marines, why not?

 

 

Well, considering that you are making the positive argument, the burden of answering the question lies with you. Why should they be added?

 

 Jarl Your argument is a point of biological and mine was about culture. You are correct but does not invalidate my point. Yes any man could impregnate several women. Culturally we (normally) don't because we are a culture of having a single wife. Adultry in Norse culture was a severe offense, one that was sometimes punished by death.

 

 

Considering that Fenris is equivalent to a Stone Age (I know, the books claim its Iron age, yet they don't actually show any features of it) tribal culture, I very much doubt they barely know of the concept of marriage, monogamy would just confuse them. Tribal rulers having multiple wives/concubines wouldn't really be surprising with the rest having as many as they can support. Fenris is far harsher environment, monogamy for life would be counterproductive to the tribes survival.

Oh and as to the speculation of Fenris' population being majority female, such a disparity in population's gender would result in massive changes to societal norms that would make recruiting male astartes unviable option, alternately, if the sociatal norms don't change it just results in less picky women. Even if the tribes suddenly started having mass orgies and popping out children like rabbits, assuming they have the means to feed all of them and not just infanticide them to reduce mouths to feed, the population would still be in single digit millions. It should be important to keep in mind that IRL Terra had an equivalent population (estimated 4M) about 12,000 years ago and breached double digits 8,000 years ago. Thus natural growth of Fenris to a population level where they can spare fertile young women would require thousands of years. Even with artificial assistance to bring the population to a level, within 100-200 years, where one could even contemplate of recruiting women as fodder for supersoldiers would require such inhumane treatment of women that would make Daemonculaba look morally acceptable in comparison.

 

 

I should propably add something that contributes towards a decent female MEQ or astartes, although I disagree with the latter form of female supersoldiers. Not that I trust GW to not feth it up royally, but maybe just maybe they spawn something decent.

Sisters of Silence are a very low fluff and model faction, with thematic overlap with Sisters of Battle (as in they deal with psykers, not that they're women in power armour). As they are psionic nulls, they are also the counterpart to Grey Knights with contrasting abilities. Blanks are also rather underutilized weapon in Imperium's arsenal (sans Culexius). Nulls are also comparatively rare so they do not undermine regular astartes role within the Imperium. And presumably they are incabable of breeding so any resulting Super Sister won't cause any heretical thoughts in male astartes about becoming a viable species and replacing humanity. So, lets proceed and pump potent Super Sisters full of stimulants, genemods whatever else heretical material (to warrant ST4/ST5) they can scrounge up on Luna (and Titan), dress her up in ornate power armour and mount her on an exoskeleton babycarrier before sending her trundling towards the nearest psyker/daemon. For added grimdark factor, have them die after a battle or two due to overexertion.

So yeah, forget about regular women. SoS need cuddles too.

 

[Dantay VI]

Cool. Lets make male SoB and SoS.

 

Y know for the sake of diversity and equality.

 

Because why not?

 

Taking real world politics out of this equation and going in-universe because that is where this should stay.

 

The immortal Emperor made marines male. If he had the ability he could and maybe would have made them but he chose not to.

 

In universe as far as we are aware nobody before or since the emperor has had the capability or resources to create female marines plus where would you get the geneseed to try?

 

Owing to the state of the imperium and the technological regression and the fsct that the marines etc are seen as his holy work any attempt to alter the geneseed or experimentation would be seen as heresy of the highest order. The perpetrators and the results of their experimentation would be destroyed and stricken from all records.

 

Because Cawl?? He made male marines better yes but stayed to using males because it was presumably easier.

 

If after 10,000 years he hasnt figured it out I highly doubt anyone will.

[Guest]

The lore of the geneseed is the best argument against female Space Marines. Yes they have retconned things before, we cannot assume they will retcon for the sake of argument. Assuming a retcon leads to many "what if" scenarios. Cawl is no Emperor, and has only added organs not modified geneseed. The geneseed are still the same from the original 21 primarchs. I for see no way of arguing against this point at this time.

[PeteySödes]

Still not for or against really but just wanted to add to the group of voices on the fallacy of trying to fit our morals to the 40k universe. That place sucks more than we have it now lol.