The Shark Jumped: Debating FeMarines, Primaris Too

[Guest Triszin]

If space wolves get Inceptors with melee options, I think I might model them after valkeires.

[rendingon1+]

All the talk of lore as reasons not to have girl marine models is crap. Marine lore was made in the 80s, when women and other ethnicities were not considered when trying to market to the white male sci fi crowd (see Star Wars and the difference between the original trilogy and the call for greater diversity now).

 

Keep telling yourselves that marines can’t be women for “fluff” reasons. It’s basically the same argument people have been using against the other gender in every capacity for thousands of years.

 

Anyways, the whole point of the post was for the OP to feel comfortable making girl marines. I think he should and feel no shame in doing so.

And so what? Background is what it is, marines are male as established. You don't like it and try to shove gender equality to imaginary setting (yes, it's not real and do not have to follow real world laws) with it's own rights- your problem. Mayby you would prefere AoS with every gender and race represnted in; on a side note made by GW it looks really fake and forced.

 

OP may do with his models all he wants but he shouldn't be a suprise if people will make fun of his army.

 

And if you really talk about white male sci fi crowd and think it's no longer valid: go to some tournaments, GW/FW open days and tell me what kind of people do you see. Hint: white males.

[Dantay VI]

All the talk of lore as reasons not to have girl marine models is crap. Marine lore was made in the 80s, when women and other ethnicities were not considered when trying to market to the white male sci fi crowd (see Star Wars and the difference between the original trilogy and the call for greater diversity now).

 

Keep telling yourselves that marines can’t be women for “fluff” reasons. It’s basically the same argument people have been using against the other gender in every capacity for thousands of years.

 

Anyways, the whole point of the post was for the OP to feel comfortable making girl marines. I think he should and feel no shame in doing so.

 

Karack asked what folks thought, so I and other have told him what we think of femarines. The answers come from across the spectrum from. For me, I side with the in-universe lore and say they are not possible.

 

However Karrack can build his models however he likes it does not affect me and I would be happy to game with Karrack and his femarines should our paths ever cross.

 

The lore is a fundamental part of the game, it is what 40K is based upon, so, no. It is not crap.

Trying to ram in 21st century politics down peoples throats via a fantasy game set in the far grimdark future where the politics is completely different to what we have nowadays is completely crap

 

In the lore marines and custodes are one of the only if not the only factions which are exclusively male. Just as Sisters of Battle and Sisters of Silence are exclusively female.

 

Eldar, Dark Eldar, have in stories and models both male and female, Tyranids have the Norn Queen, but have no gender, Orks have no gender as they are spawned like fungi. Astra Militarum have a mix of sexes, even though the model range is male, T'au I am not so sure of. Cultists can be of either sex, daemons have no known gender (barring maybe daemonettes). Knights have female pilots and Necrons I believe have or had a female overlord/lady. 

 

Guard come from millions of worlds from many diverse ethnicities, marines are recruited from millions of worlds adopting traditions and are of different ethnicities, eldar, have different cultures for example, so the 40K universe is pretty diverse

 

You are coming off as a bit rude, plus fluff, hasn't been used for "thousands of years". I do not recall the Templars at Acre saying women could not fight because "fluff".

 

Sweeping generalisations do not win over people.

 

So maybe climb down from your soapbox, stop trying to make political statements with little plastic models and just enjoy the game for what it is.

[GrFlur]

My reasons are soooo simple that almost everyone here is giving me headache with so many words ...

 

I want Fenrisian females/femarines fewhatever the name jost to recreated the Nordic mythology: Valkeries

 

Also

 

I want   Runic Dwarves to explore further our runic power and "Inside the mountain" world!

 

Really, it's a game, think about it as it is what it is

[Karack Blackstone]

I have not been able to post as often as I would like, but then again, that may be a good thing.

 

Overall, some major points on all sides are being raised here, all great.

 

I have a short list, or, so I hope, of how this discussion can start to make some headway.

1 - If FeMarines could be done well, in your eyes, how might that occur?

2 - If FeMarines are best left not done, why, in your mind? Fluff, societal drive not being in WH40K, what have you.

My own replies, then, some other perspective that will hopefully help the ongoing discussion and brainstorming session here.

 

1 - Fitness levels per individual vary wildly and widely; the problem is, most of modern society until very recently has taught that men are the far more physical ones.

Can a society learn to teach their women that, if they earn it, said woman can become as fit and strong as any male?* While this is not where the Imperium is, Fenris is one of the few places that might actually be willing, with proof that it can be done in a way that both continues to see enough children born to keep the population going, and, have said women warriors.

 

*Women build muscle and fitness in the normal range differently than men. Those that are massive body builders pretty well start to look the same after a while, and their face is the only real hint as to what gender the individual started out as originally. I could link images, but, instead, I will just say that, if you as a person have ever seen a fit, strong, and confident woman, is it not likely that the same way women act around men with those same traits are in at least some way equivalent?

 

As far as the images go, the normalish range of people with a fit, strong, trim and toned physique are noticeably different; it's the mountains of muscle that are nearly indistinguishable. And, those are likely where the Astartes are; that is not likely, at all, where a normal human before they earn Astartes hood would have been at, as due to size and mass, their ability to move around in normal society is drastically limited.

 

I know one thing about life, and even then, it's not everything; in a way, I will always be learning about myself on the inside. The problem is conveying to others what my internal conversations are like through words, as, as of this time, to my knowledge, the ability to read minds and talk unfiltered to others is not there yet.

 

2 - I honestly think that the current, standing fluff must be respected and remain as close to unaltered as possible. Timeframes involved in doing anything remotely like this would need to possibly be added into the current background fluff, but, the hard part is respecting the entirety of the current fluff, but in essence building a small tangential line that can result in the FeMarines I am interested in. Just, done both well and in-game to the point that, long term, it would start a conversation about women that would move the subject of most worlds apparently considering their women to be organic baby factories into a societal one for each hive, world, system, subsector, and possibly, sector-wide level, over time.

 

Look, I am on board with the entire thing being in the, if it can't be done well, let's not do it yet mindset. Modern politics being what it is, let's just make two proverbial boards in the room here, and label one, real world, and the other, WH40K. in WH40K, there's this really, REALLY frowned upon thing by the Inquisition, called innovation, or, according to the in setting big =I=, "Emperor forbid," new.

 

So, yes, this would be new. There could well be instances of the =I= finding out about a project like this and sending Sisters of Battle among other resources to try and stop it.

 

The crunch of the matter is to, no matter what, improve the game in a meaningful way, but at the same time, not forcibly changing the gender of established heroes and personnel of the Space Wolves Chapter, but to instead, only have those FeMarines that earn the higher ranks get there.

 

How?

 

I currently hypothesize that FeMarines might prove possible with what might be either a new implant organ that will permit the female gender to handle the implants, or, a possible gene therapy regimen that would sufficiently prepare a woman to accept and support the non-new already in fluff Astartes and Primaris implants.

 

Societies form the people, the people form the person. Telling a person they are one thing is not going to make a large difference to a society. It is only when enough people can come to a quorum or consensus that societal change can occur. Since there's no realistic chance to hand-wavium more population onto Fenris, by all means, the same standards that women warriors should be held to the same set of criteria as the men is fine, in my eyes. The problems start when said woman, should she be brought back, would rather go back and have kids.

 

To that last part in the paragraph above, this is Fenris. What Fenrisian, be they man or woman, would pass up the chance to join their literal gods, their Valhalla and Valhall, and go become a Skywarrior of the Rout, if they could? This sounds far more like Fenris in setting to me; only the women that take up a weapon and defend their fellow people should be considered. Same as the men, that's it. As far as the larger societal effects, that could actually be part of the point of all this: the in-setting reaction to the Wolves doing a thing should be controversial.

 

Here's a hypothetical:

 

- Wolves do things, they are known to do the right thing when even the Inquisition in setting tells them not to.

- The Wolves are to defend the people; if that means the Inquisition is a threat, well...

- If the Wolves were to figure out how to end up with Female Space Marines, that starts a rather important and powerful conversation, that if GW felt the need to, they can play out their own version of how the politics of the in-setting discussion could form and start to unfold

- Long term, women have three, basically two in-setting job options. Baby factory, or, fight; and, the fight is limited to the Imperial Guard and the Sisterhoods, including those of Battle and Silence.

 

Why is the possibility of the heroine, in this case, a bad thing? Because the lore can be done in a way inconsistent with the already existing fluff, in the current setting. That's fine, to me; it's the getting the fluff into a place where the whole thing becomes a proverbial storm could be both fun, interesting, and above all, intriguing.

 

I am more and more, every day, interested in trying to achieve the mindset able to only perceive the objective truth, because, subjective opinion is not said truth.

 

Still, both, in a way, must exist. The problem is, my subjective opinion is that long term, if this is done, the current objective truth of the in-setting Imperium getting this big of a jostle to its already established societal construct, if done right, would be VERY interesting, and in its own right, might, just might, introduce the concept of acceptable outside the feminist movement heroines in what is likely one of the most iconic sci-fi hero forces there is, currently.

 

As it is, as always, food for thought.

[Schlitzaf]

Karack your giving how and why in universe, but not why. I keep pushing you to answer the question, why? How does women marines improve 40k? Not by increasing Diversity. By how does the existence improve the story?

 

The point of the theoretical of having a favorite marine be female is how having the female character affects the story? Because if the answer is the story does not change, and but should change why are you forcing square head into a circle hole? Secondly if the story does not change and should not change, then you found a gender Nuetral role where only change is the reader implicit reading of a character (a protective maternal figure vs a concerned father example).

 

If the story does change but should not have changed, you added or changed a characteristic that hadn’t needn’t to be changed. And created the worse story. If you the story does change and should change you created a better story and added new depth. I ask you again.

 

How does having a character, an astartes, in a story changed from being female. Or doesn’t change. You explain why it can happen in story, and meta for why it should (diversity). Not what it will mean for the story and how it would benefit.

[Karack Blackstone]

Karack your giving how and why in universe, but not why. I keep pushing you to answer the question, why? How does women marines improve 40k? Not by increasing Diversity. By how does the existence improve the story?

 

The point of the theoretical of having a favorite marine be female is how having the female character affects the story? Because if the answer is the story does not change, and but should change why are you forcing square head into a circle hole? Secondly if the story does not change and should not change, then you found a gender Nuetral role where only change is the reader implicit reading of a character (a protective maternal figure vs a concerned father example).

 

If the story does change but should not have changed, you added or changed a characteristic that hadn’t needn’t to be changed. And created the worse story. If you the story does change and should change you created a better story and added new depth. I ask you again.

 

How does having a character, an astartes, in a story changed from being female. Or doesn’t change. You explain why it can happen in story, and meta for why it should (diversity). Not what it will mean for the story and how it would benefit.

 

Why? Out of setting?

 

The story would benefit in light of the Tyranid Hive Flotilla that is approaching the in-setting galaxy, because according to the, "Increase production by 500%," mentioned in either the 7th or 8th Edition core rulebook(s), there's every reason to train, arm, and ready all available people within the Imperium to mount a defense.

 

My personal reason why? I honestly think the story would potentially best benefit from this matter of femarines by treating it in-setting as something just as controversial outside of the setting of WH40K. There's every reason that in my mind, a woman from a society that can teach a woman to be able to earn what a man is able to do the same, insomuch as requirements to get into a job are concerned. Genetic tendencies exist in some societies; if the Fenrisians are any indication, without a strong mother too, the men would not be quite as capable as they are.

 

In one word, my reason out of setting for femarines is, simply put, equality. This by no means should result in a one-to-one ratio of femarines to marines. There's absolutely a limit on the number of women that a society can spare for a fighting force, especially in a setting as dangerous as WH40K, and, to type it, there's at best the likely ratio of three men to one woman as my target maximum.

 

Femarines are controversial; if that is required to be brought into the in setting discussion, by all means, I say do so.

 

I just personally see that, while few, those women that would be equivalently chosen as men on Fenris to be inducted into the Chapter, if it is possible, seems that given the fair shot and chance to do so, would it not be worth at least considering if the warrior in question should be given the option to serve the people, Imperium-wide?

 

I personally think that women, given the option to be raised in a society that values the individual more than their gender, would permit, within the same equality of requirements, the ability to become heroines in their own right. Women and men are, by basic biology, starting at similar areas when they are born in life. One's genetics typically sets the ratios at which one can improve in each specific area. For a woman to be able to compete with a man physically, they do tend to require a society that will accept a woman be able to proceed into the earn it category of life to make it in said profession.

 

Warfighting is likely the single hardest job in existence. Limiting one's recruitment pool to one gender when the few and far between women can be possibly considered too seems a little like not picking all the eggs in a given carton because one does not like the shape. Fenris is a world that could conceivably allow for femarines. Should they? That's what this thread is for, to me.

 

Equality above all else will by necessity demand that fewer women be able to make it into the Astartes and the Primaris; there's no reason to me at least to deny those that can fight to do so, so long as it is done by equality of ability, with no allowances for gender in this case. It should be controversial; it should be in setting something that might really cause the Imperium as a whole consternation.

 

Why? I'm still struggling to put it into words here. I like the idea. Can it be done well? Yes. Can it be done poorly? Yes. Can it be done in a way that is consistent with the current lore? Yes. Should it be done? I'm more concerned about, "It should be done in a way that only improves the setting." Does that mean I'm comprehending my own perspective yet? No. I do not yet have the words to convey that I love the idea, but, as this is a previously existing setting, there's every demand that any change of this magnitude somehow be treated as the out of nowhere game changer to all that hear of it topic it must be in setting.

 

Sigh...

 

The why to me is simply this: I love the game, I love the idea of femarines. I must reiterate that, again, "Everyone was so impressed with whether or not they could, nobody stopped to think if they should!" There's my personal bias here, clearly; if femarines would be done poorly, delay the timing of the subject. If they can only detract from the setting, that's a show-stopper. The issue is more that to one person, cool is uncool, and vice versa.

 

That's the hard part, here. Doing a thing well is never easy, let alone doing it such that within reason all that read a story see the same story the same way. Basically, no two people will ever see the same thing the exact same way, because they are each two unique individuals. Just as you and I differ on the discussion point of changing any established male marine into a female one must improve the story, I do not understand why an already existing character must suddenly gender swap to proceed down this line of thinking here. If any female marine were to ever emerge, they must earn their own place, saga, story, what have you, as a Wolf to become said HQ choice.

 

The story benefit overall, as I struggle to type and think this through, is that, put simply, in sci-fi, the WH40K Space Marine is an iconic symbol, approaching but not equal to the Uncle Sam poster used to recruit for the U.S. military. While not the same, I do find it both poignant and part of the fun to expand the universe to let the viewer actually have the chance to wonder if the individual is either male or female, or, likely, was.

 

I honestly continue to wonder about how to put the fluff perspective into my own viewpoint. If the story does not benefit, then delay this subject until it does, as far as an official capacity is concerned. For me, FeMarines make sense as far as if able, a woman that chose to become an Astartes/Primaris should, if able, be given the chance to prove herself the same as any man must prove himself. Equality is the desired goal; reality is often a very different thing, at that.

[BBadger]

All the talk of lore as reasons not to have girl marine models is crap. Marine lore was made in the 80s, when women and other ethnicities were not considered when trying to market to the white male sci fi crowd (see Star Wars and the difference between the original trilogy and the call for greater diversity now).

 

Keep telling yourselves that marines can’t be women for “fluff” reasons. It’s basically the same argument people have been using against the other gender in every capacity for thousands of years.

 

Anyways, the whole point of the post was for the OP to feel comfortable making girl marines. I think he should and feel no shame in doing so.

 

There was an interesting 3 page spread in the "Big Issue" (of all places) on the origins of GW back in the 80's. For some context for our brothers outside the UK, the Big Issue is a magazine sold by the homeless on the streets of Britain in lieu of begging for money. It's a good read, you should buy it. 

 

Essentially the company was started in the back of a van because the guys had no cash, no real homes, and certainly no office. They were just 3 men with a dream and some cool ideas for some games they wanted to make that nobody else was making. At least one of those guys are still managing the direction of the fluff today as far as I am aware. Those guys turned an idea made on the street into the UK's most successful PLC, who recently ploughed the increase of their large profit margin into staff bonuses over increased shareholder payout or future investment. 

 

Are you seriously going to tell me that they made the cynical choice to exclude women from 40K cannon just to please some spotty nerds? I posted earlier about Occam's razor. The simpler option is the true option. What's simpler? Some dudes thought an idea was badass and rolled with it, or some conspiracy to exclude women? Give people some credit, man.

 

I think we've seen enough of the GW fluff authors internal discussions and thought processes to know there are no ulterior motives. They aren't untouchables. There are gamers in Nottingham I know who bump into some of them on occasion.

[Schlitzaf]

Then you have no real reason. You have a motivation; the creating a visual equality in regards to proper representation of the world and perceived moral necessity. This not wrong, let me reiterate several classics have done this, famously Justice League in DCAU. With some other issues, Power Rangers under Saban. But you need a reason and more importantly to change you need a why. Why from a story would this improve the narrative open space marines to individual of the biological female sex. If you simply desired to have a ‘girl’ marine, that is already plausible. Nothing says a transgender women (a biological male who has the mind or brain, of a women) cannot be a Space Marine. So I ask why?

 

If your intention is that you want equality and that equality onto itself will improve the story. Your wrong. Equality is the means, not the end. The Primaris represent this perfectly. Dislike the lore fine, that is a different issue.

 

But the Primaris were made to improve the marine statline without accidentally breaking some. By fixing the core issues and revamping an exhausted line. The end product was that Primaris were representations of NewGW, and of a new Era. But unlike Stormcast and Sigmar represent this new era a continuation of the old era but squarely planting themselves into Adeptus Astartes Line. They in the end represented, hope, hope that there is a future.

 

That while in the Grim Darkness of the Far Future there is only war, and life of a man has no meaning. The Primaris represented we won’t go gently, and that we are fighting for a future. The Imperium was beset and on the verge of ending, without Primaris our setting might be now in the Grim Darknsss of the Far Future there is only Massacre and Murder. Or Death and Decay. Maybe simply be The Capricious and Insidious. Or the worse The Selfish and the Depraved.

 

They represented and presented among other things, Humanity drive and are unwillingness to accept defeat. The Imperium cut in two, and humanity celebrates the failure to reunite our empire. We celebrate surviving another day. While Primaris might only been intended to be a backdoor method improve space marine statline, the story was crafted to fit them in. Now once again you decry that as madness. Or :cussty. But that is another discussion from what I am broaching here.

 

You say equality, I say why? What does Imperium defined as being a vile, authoritarian, backwards xenophobic organization gain by having its premier and the 40k at large universe iconic organization suddenly becoming equalitiarian add to the story? It’s why I challenge to imagine an Astartes character you love as being female, what would that change in the story? If anything? And why does that need for equality require a biological female for the intended effect? After Gene Seed, a biological female and male astartes shouldn’t look that terribly different or really be different in mindset. So why do you think the story be improved with this ‘equality’?

 

Now there are reasons, Marines in general have father figures but not really mother figures. Having a female chapter master or otherwise is a super interesting dynamic espacially as a founding chapter master. Second Space Marines are Knights in Space, and in the term “battle-brother”. The introduction of “battle-sisters” (also be confusing with sisters of battle but going on) change the dynamic? Would they take over the apothecary or be like blood claws and assault marines eager to prove there worth.

 

Second in discussion about legacy, one of the most basic concepts is the gene seed harvest and spreading it battle brother to battle brother. Tackling the concept of going from battle sister to battle brother what does that mean? And like that the reverse? Also planes and ships are normally ‘female’ machine spirits, and Techmarine are their caretakers. Would we see a high population of battle sisters or would we see them avoid that from the plague. Or see both?

 

 

So once again Karack, why? What does adding female marines to the story provide us narratively that is otherwise lacking? Because one of the greatest things about the Imperium in a macabre sense. Is that in the Imperium, you can truly and honeslty make the following statement:

“In the Imperium all are Equal, from the highest high lord to the lowest ganger

 

In that end of the day, the Imperium cares about them all the same, absolutely 0. The value they place on them is there worth to society. A marine is treated well because he is worth more than a planet. A Sister of Silence are revered and fear for being the ultimate answer so that which goes bump in the night, but the Imperium relies on that which goes bump (Astrographs, Navigators etc). So Karack, equality is the motivation but what is the reason what does biological female marines add to our setting?

[Lord Ragnarok]

=][= I think this topic has run its course. It has been discussed MANY times on the board. =][=