War of Secrets - Dark Angels and the Primaris

[Brother Quinn]

Hello, everyone.  I just finished up "War of Secrets" by Phil Kelly.  I'm not here to debate the writing but to give you some points about how the Dark Angels treat the Primaris.  (I will spoiler tag it just incase, though I tried to keep it sans actual story related spoilers).

 

There is only interaction with a Primaris contingent seconded to the 3rd company that arrived from the Indominus Crusade (Ultima Founding). There are no Dark Angel "grown" Primaris as of yet.

 

The entire 3rd company command have "sore misgivings" regarding the Primaris with their dual loyalties to Mars and the Lord Guilliman.  To keep them at arms length, the Primaris contingent are indoctrinated to activate with a code phrase and are regularly mind wiped without them knowing it.  A few chapters start with this code phrase and the Primaris suddenly find themselves in a transport and checking over their munitions, with minimal necessary knowledge of the current warzone objective at their disposal.  They also continuously receive the "honor" of vanguard duty, essentially being used as "bullet shields" for the rest of the company while they work behind the scenes.  They have a "Mortis Program" to eliminate the Primaris if necessary.

 

However, throughout the story they prove their worth to the Chapter.  They also appear resistant to psychic assaults which corrupt "regular" marines.

 

There is now the "Primaris Circle" with the goal to pursue leads within the Ultima Founding, the works of the Primarch Guilliman, and also the Martian Priesthood.  Yes, they're aware of the  Fallen. This is an unofficial circle formed by the Interrogator Chaplain, he states they cannot be promoted to the brotherhood of the huntsmen but will perform the previously stated function.  This all depends on the approval of Azrael however.

 

I hope you found it interesting.

 

 

[Bryan Blaire]

Well damn, I was thinking that I could be a clever first with the code phrase idea (which i obviously got from GW via the Legacy of Caliban series) in one my stories and I took too long to write it. :lol:

My idea involved a code phrase in Calibanite being used against a standard Marine, the Primaris recognizing the words, and the command having to quickly figure out a phrase that would shut the Primaris down, then gathering them all in a chapel on the Rock for re-indoctrination programming. The command was also going to wonder how and why Guilliman knew about programming a shut-down phrase into the Primaris - a “What else does he know about the Unforgiven?” moment.

That all sounds very Unforgiven, I actually like the way that it was handled.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Very interesting, and somewhat palatable for some reason to me. I'm a bit curious about a few things:

 

When you say 3rd Company chapter command, what do you mean? My understanding is that not all the respective chapter commands, which I normally take to mean Company Master, Chaplains, Apothecaries, command squads and techmarines, are necessarily Inner Circle. By Gav Thorpe's silly interpretation, even a Company Master may not necessarily be a Inner Circle. 

 

Interrgator Chaplains are part of Chapter command along with Azrael and Librarius, which are definitely Inner Circle.

 

In any case, it looks like the Primaris marines are still "slowly assimilated" into the Dark Angels, although i doubt the whole mind wiping routine can be good for the Primaris, which you mentioned are already resistant to psychic attacks, who knows if the Dark Angels own psychic manipulation will work in the long term. Looks like an Interrogator Chaplain is already preparing a Circle within the Primaris in preparation for perhaps Inner Circle induction.

 

not sure what you mean by investigating Fallen within the Ultima founding though.

 

 

LOL, I think this whole discussion will be in spoiler tags.

[Brother Quinn]

@Bryan Blaire - That would be an interesting twist.  In a way, that would be confirmation from Guilliman that he's okay with our tactics! 

 

@Kasper_Hawser - I'll try to answer your questions... in another spoiler tag (!) because it'll touch on some more story elements.

 

Interesting thing about these mindwipes, I always assumed they were a scouring of sorts from a Librarian (never really bothered to research it).  In the book they use chemicals in the apothecarion to carry out the procedure.  It takes a toll on them and they all report having nightmares - "It made so much sense.  The sensation of waking, as if from deep meditation, when they were going into battle.  The flashbacks, the dreams, the sense of figures looking down and shining azure lights right in their faces.  The fact that almost every of the Primaris Marines had experienced the same thing at some point.  They were being used as puppets.  As distractions. As shields of flesh and bone to hurled against a convenient enemy whilst the real work was being done behind the scenes.  'It's all lies,'...'This whole Chapter is built on lies.'"  They reason they figure it out is because of the procedure using the chemicals.  One marine was badly injured and his body was flooded with a chemical cocktail from their Belisarian Furnaces.. which kept him half awake and largely blocking the effects of the mind wipe, overhearing the whole thing being done to another marine before him as he lay sedated. 

 

As for the chapter command, I should clarify that I don't mean from an inner circle standpoint, more that they all had misgivings about them.  This includes the apothecary and techmarine.  At one point the Mortis program is activated by the apothecary once he learned the mind wipes weren't working and they were retaining their memories.  The apothecary takes his narthecium to the temple of a strapped down Primaris right then.  The Techmarine was looking forward to taking a plasma pistol to another but was stopped by the Interrogator Chaplain.

 

I think the IC preparing a Primaris Circle was an inevitability facing the Chapter, though it will still need to be approved by Azrael once its taken before him.  For the Ultima Founding, they don't provide much detail but here's a quote - "You will pursue leads that we cannot,' said the Chaplain.  'Not only within the Ultima Founding and the works of the Primarch Guilliman, but also the Martian Priesthood.  You will put the agendas of the Chapter, as stated by your superiors, before all other concerns.'"

[Kasper_Hawser]

Gah, still confusing but it is still refreshing to see a fresh (relatively) author to the Dark Angels. Didn't know Phil Kelly wrote novels in addition to codexes , but most of the old guys seem to like his writing as well as game balance. (though he was responsible for the overwolfing in the Space Wolves 5th edition codex. You know, wolf lord, wolf priest, wolf talisman, wolf wolf wolf wolf everything, and of course, Space Wolves on wolves..... dear lord. At least he wasn't responsible for santa Grimnar, i think).

 

LOL, what you mentioned about the apothecary methods brings fond memories of the Matris red pill and blue pill. Though apparently, the blue pill doesn't work very well on the Primaris and is administered without their consent. I really wonder how the Primaris will be able to accumulate battle experience this way except in the most instinctive level. Also what you say works with the normal Primaris troops but what about stuff like Primaris captains, Apothecarions and Chaplains? I guess the DA would only accept the troops, not the command structure. Wonder how the rest of the successor chapters would work who will have their own Primaris command structure. Oh well, I guess Grim Resolve is a good enough chapter tactic.

[rendingon1+]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348237-war-of-secrets-by-phil-kelly-now-available/

 

For anyone who might feel tempted to buy it. (don't).

[Bryan Blaire]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348237-war-of-secrets-by-phil-kelly-now-available/

For anyone who might feel tempted to buy it. (don't).

You do know that’s not really a convincing reason to not buy something, right? Just someone randomly saying Don’t isn’t that much evidence why not to.

 

All BL books are BL books, if anyone isn’t expecting trope-ish and non-award winning writing, then they haven’t been paying attention to BL books. It’s not like 40K itself lends to amazing authorship in the first place. They can be very fun escapist books though.

 

It’d be nice to have actual content on why you would warn people away from the book, instead of just having “Don’t”.

[Master Ciaphas]

Well - technically the "don't" is explained to a great extent in the thread linked to by rendington1+. Having read that thread, it seems to me, that there are many compelling reasons to avoid said book like the plague...

 

Faithfully,

Master Ciaphas

[rendingon1+]

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348237-war-of-secrets-by-phil-kelly-now-available/

For anyone who might feel tempted to buy it. (don't).

You do know that’s not really a convincing reason to not buy something, right? Just someone randomly saying Don’t isn’t that much evidence why not to.

 

All BL books are BL books, if anyone isn’t expecting trope-ish and non-award winning writing, then they haven’t been paying attention to BL books. It’s not like 40K itself lends to amazing authorship in the first place. They can be very fun escapist books though.

 

It’d be nice to have actual content on why you would warn people away from the book, instead of just having “Don’t”.

 

How about reading the discussion?

[Bryan Blaire]

How about reading the discussion?;)

How about “You came in this thread to post, you can’t provide a summary?”

 

I don’t bother to read everything people link to with a short sentence/single word. If you thought it was important enough to link, you should have a pretty good gist of it. :facepalm: I actually did go read the first page of that thread, but after the second or third “The DA are just jerks” and “I really don’t understand why...” comments, I realized it was a Meh thread anyway and came right back here for actual DA conversation.

 

Brother Quinn thought enough of it to have the discussion and post his thoughts, so any DA folks can chime in if they’ve read it with their likes and dislikes, the discussion doesn’t need to be burdened with all that other drek.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

How about reading the discussion?

How about “You came in this thread to post, you can’t provide a summary?”

 

I don’t bother to read everything people link to with a short sentence/single word. If you thought it was important enough to link, you should have a pretty good gist of it. I actually did go read the first page of that thread, but after the second or third “The DA are just jerks” and “I really don’t understand why...” comments, I realized it was a Meh thread anyway and came right back here for actual DA conversation.

 

Brother Quinn thought enough of it to have the discussion and post his thoughts, so any DA folks can chime in if they’ve read it with their likes and dislikes, the discussion doesn’t need to be burdened with all that other drek.

 

 

Indeed, I don't like posting links to another thread unless as reference for a particular point, especially when that thread is already relatively long, like 3 pages. Besides, it wasn't posted in the Dark Angels page. And a summary would have been nice other than "point there, read, end of discussion".

 

Just a bit of spoiler request here:

 

According to that thread, a Primaris Lieutenant was involved. Please tell me the DA didn't neutralise him later. I'm guessing he is the one in the cover art of the novel.

 

[rendingon1+]

 

How about reading the discussion?;)

How about “You came in this thread to post, you can’t provide a summary?”

 

I don’t bother to read everything people link to with a short sentence/single word. If you thought it was important enough to link, you should have a pretty good gist of it. :facepalm: I actually did go read the first page of that thread, but after the second or third “The DA are just jerks” and “I really don’t understand why...” comments, I realized it was a Meh thread anyway and came right back here for actual DA conversation.

 

Brother Quinn thought enough of it to have the discussion and post his thoughts, so any DA folks can chime in if they’ve read it with their likes and dislikes, the discussion doesn’t need to be burdened with all that other drek.

I don't feel like writing a review especially for you. 3 pages is not long really and if you don't want to read it, fine. You can ignore what other people say because it's BL not Da forum and some of the first comments were "meh" according to you, but it's still on topic, other thread or not.

I managed to read through approx 1/3 of it before giving up so my "review" wouldn't be very helpful.

[Brother Quinn]

The point of this post is to just share some (what I thought) interesting tidbits about their interactions and not debate the overall writing and story. I find those get bogged down rather quickly.   I'm glad someone posted an overall summary for those who want it in the BL thread.

 

 

 

Just a bit of spoiler request here:

 

According to that thread, a Primaris Lieutenant was involved. Please tell me the DA didn't neutralise him later. I'm guessing he is the one in the cover art of the novel.

 

 

 

Lieutenant Farren Xedro is fine and he is the one on the cover. He's inducted into the Primaris Circle.

[Bryan Blaire]

It’s interesting that they have formed this Primaris circle to also look into the Primaris. It’s very circles within circles. It will be interesting to see if the DA do promote a Primaris into the Deathwing and true Inner Circle, if that individual will be the bridge between them, with their service in the Primaris circle providing enough proof of trust, along with all the other testing that would likely be done,to give reason to elevate them. It’s all very DA.

[Angel of Solitude]

I finished this book a few weeks ago, and I have to say that I was slightly put off commenting here on B&C by the negativity expressed in the Black Library forum. To some extent I agree with the sentiment - another book about the Dark Angels and their obsession with hunting the Fallen and hiding it from the Imperium. Can't they write about my beloved chapter doing something heroic and fitting for a chapter that has such a proud lineage from the glorious 1st Legion?
 
Having said that though, on reflection I did enjoy what this book was trying to address, a question which I had the minute that I read the 8th edition codex. How do the Unforgiven deal with the necessity of integrating the Primaris into their chapter?

 

I think the conclusion to this book is unsurprising: A Primaris circle to join the existing circles within circles structure. But what I thought was clever was the way in which this came about. They could have easily killed the Primaris as planned due to their knowledge of the Fallen, but then their final act demonstrated a loyalty and mindset which to me reminded the DA that the Primaris, like themselves, all trace their lineage back to the original 1st Legion. They are true sons of the Lion, even if they are not modern day Dark Angels.

 

Will Primaris ever become part of the Deathwing? Of course they will. The Codex hints that the Primaris are slowly earning trust, something which War of Secrets directly addresses, so I don't believe it inconceivable that this trust - for some - will fully develop into Inner Circle knowledge.

 

Outside of the fluff, GW have yet to address the issue of Primaris Terminators, but I can't help but think that next edition we'll see Primaris termies and with it Primaris Deathwing.

 

Of a more interesting matter though is how you fit Primaris into the Ravenwing structure. Primaris bikes and speeders? Yes please!

 

 

 

 

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Outside of the fluff, GW have yet to address the issue of Primaris Terminators, but I can't help but think that next edition we'll see Primaris termies and with it Primaris Deathwing.

 

IIRC, Primaris Marines won't fit into Terminator armor designed for regular Marines. Do you mean Deathwing Primaris Aggressors? Or a Gravis-Terminator armor hybrid (for which I once proposed the name "Ultimatum armor")?

[Angel of Solitude]

The latter, sir - something which allows the unit to deepstrike via teleport, has a 2+ armour save with some invulnerable save to boot, and is fitting for use by Elite/Veteran Primaris marines.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I finished this book a few weeks ago, and I have to say that I was slightly put off commenting here on B&C by the negativity expressed in the Black Library forum. To some extent I agree with the sentiment - another book about the Dark Angels and their obsession with hunting the Fallen and hiding it from the Imperium. Can't they write about my beloved chapter doing something heroic and fitting for a chapter that has such a proud lineage from the glorious 1st Legion?

 

Having said that though, on reflection I did enjoy what this book was trying to address, a question which I had the minute that I read the 8th edition codex. How do the Unforgiven deal with the necessity of integrating the Primaris into their chapter?

 

I think the conclusion to this book is unsurprising: A Primaris circle to join the existing circles within circles structure. But what I thought was clever was the way in which this came about. They could have easily killed the Primaris as planned due to their knowledge of the Fallen, but then their final act demonstrated a loyalty and mindset which to me reminded the DA that the Primaris, like themselves, all trace their lineage back to the original 1st Legion. They are true sons of the Lion, even if they are not modern day Dark Angels.

 

Will Primaris ever become part of the Deathwing? Of course they will. The Codex hints that the Primaris are slowly earning trust, something which War of Secrets directly addresses, so I don't believe it inconceivable that this trust - for some - will fully develop into Inner Circle knowledge.

 

Outside of the fluff, GW have yet to address the issue of Primaris Terminators, but I can't help but think that next edition we'll see Primaris termies and with it Primaris Deathwing.

 

Of a more interesting matter though is how you fit Primaris into the Ravenwing structure. Primaris bikes and speeders? Yes please!

 

With this final note, I think I will buy the book as the first Dark Angel novel in my primarily Space Wolf library. Thanks Angel. Finally, a Dark Angel novel with minimal bull......... manure. At least it'll be a different manure from a different author rather than GT.

 

On another note, there are some rumors of Primaris bikers later this year according to Bols. The Primaris may not join the deathwing yet until someone with a sewing needle and welding torch adjusts terminator armour sizes, but looks like Ravenwing Primaris maybe coming sooner.

 

Makes sense, after all, Ravenwing are the detective/investigative arm of the Dark Angels before the FINAL induction circle in Deathwing. 

 

If the Primaris Circle is going to be started, the Ravenwing training may be best for them, encouraging their inquisitive minds without actually telling them whole truth.

 

[Angel of Solitude]

Primaris bikers would be very interesting...given that the Repulsor is grav-based, I wonder if we will get Primaris jetbikers? :o

 

Ascension to Ravenwing first sounds most likely. I'm now salivating at the prospect of Primaris jetbike Black Knights...

[Kasper_Hawser]

Primaris bikers would be very interesting...given that the Repulsor is grav-based, I wonder if we will get Primaris jetbikers?

 

Ascension to Ravenwing first sounds most likely. I'm now salivating at the prospect of Primaris jetbike Black Knights...

 

Sigh, as if Black Knights aren't the coolest marine bikers there is, now they may come in primaris flavor. With 3 wounds on T5, they'll be comparable to the ridiculous Thunderwolf cavalry in stats, only faster and comes with a gun.

[plasmaspam]

I read it on release day.

 

IMHO it's a good read with an unfortunate rushed ending. Kelly clearly gets the 1st through his portrayal of the Astartes and their handling of the spies in the camp. The way he leaves things provides a lot of potential for future story and fluff development, but again it was disappointingly rushed. Another 100 pages to fully develop the story would've been justified.

 

I'd give it a B grading.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I read it on release day.

 

IMHO it's a good read with an unfortunate rushed ending. Kelly clearly gets the 1st through his portrayal of the Astartes and their handling of the spies in the camp. The way he leaves things provides a lot of potential for future story and fluff development, but again it was disappointingly rushed. Another 100 pages to fully develop the story would've been justified.

 

I'd give it a B grading.

 

I am very please with the novel, only the rushed ending and the relatively short nature of the novel being the weakness. And even then, it is not the worst ending I've seen. "Shrike" by George Mann was worse in its anticlimatic conclusion.

 

A few things to clarify though:

 

Any idea what the heck the Master of the Angels of Absolution actually did to ambush Kais? It sounds like he planned an orbital bombardment on his own position but only when there was absolutely no other choice i.e. he was the only one left standing. And then I thought he teleported away but he appeared to "reappear" in the same position after the bombardment. Kinda cheating to use a relic as a deus ex machina to bypass death but then, that's par for 40K. Nice cliffhanger on the implication of the Dark Angels helping the Tau. I always thought it strange the Angels of Absolution seem to be the most noble bright among the DA successors, and now it seems to be biting them on the behind. Although to be fair, it's not really their fault but that of that darn fallen angel. Quite a well written sorceror although his abilities seem very deus ex machina.

 

 

One thing great about Phil Kelly, almost all the bolter porn in the novel makes sense from a table top point of view. In almost every battle scene, I could envision the whole thing as a skirmish game. His depiction of the Tau and Tzeetch daemons was excellent, it is clear he has kept up with all the latest development in the codex department, either that or he is STILL in the tabletop development department. Actually I never realised he wrote novels until this one. Nevertheless, he clearly know the difference between a Storm bolter and a Bolt rifle, and I was pleasantly surprised that the Tau department was very recognisable.

 

I don't think this part deserves a spoiler as it is not really plot relevant, so I'll say this openly. Despite not being named, I could recognise a Riptide at some point (twenty feet battlesuit). Of course, this is not perfectly done, basically a Primaris task force managed to kill a Riptide with nothing but bolt rifles and a Hellblaster squad. In tabletop, the only way that can happen is if the Riptide had no drones at all, in which case I will believe if every one of the 3 Hellblasters shot hit and was overcharged and had Weapons of the Dark Age activated. Oh, and all of the bolt rifles hit and wound too. To be fair, they didn't exactly destroy it, but the thing was damaged and then sank into the ocean.

 

Otherwise, it'll waste on a bloody drone. God I hate Tau. Not Tau players, but the army.

 

You know, I tried to read the other thread on review of War of Secrets that Rendington+1 recommended, and I found it was really toxic and totally contrary to my own reading. then again, we all have our own opinions, but so many on that thread  seem to hate Phil Kelly almost as much as I despite Gav Thorpe. I wonder what bad novel Phil wrote to give rise to such a reputation. 

 

@ Angels of Solitude - Once again, I'm very glad I listend to you instead of that toxic thread. weaknesses aside, it is hardly the worst Dark Angel novel or Black library novel for that matter that I've read. It is even better than the recent Jagatai Khan primarch novel by my own personal favorite Chris Wright.

 

In the end, the only troll worthy action of the DA that made my blood boil (even though hardly surprising)...

 

.... was how the poor hellblaster sergeant Pietr Moricani was unceremoniously executed by the apothecary. Sigh....... it's like the old tv trope: the comedian always dies first.

 

 

As a last surprise revelation:

 

The mystery of the Fourth Sphere expansion tau fleet is finally revealed. Depending on your point of view, either ridiculous or logical in 40K terms. Oh, and it is implied that there is a Tau on board who is probably the same badass in the Firewarrior 1st shooter, as well as the Tau commander in the Dawn of War: Dark Crusade game. Needless to say, the whole bunch of them have gone mad, though mad in the same manner of the Imperium of man, reaching the conclusion that the only way the Tau can survive is the extermination of all non Tau people, including their own allies and auxiliaries.

 

Odd to hear this revelation in a DA novel, but somehow I like it. 

 

 

With this, I hope more of you read it. In the fictional words of Jack Reacher, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. But I honestly don't think this is the worst novel I've read, as pasmaspan rated it, a solid B. Maybe B- if you want to be safe.

[Shadowseer]

I'm so happy I followed this thread, and not the one in BL forum.

 

Despite pacing and some writing issues (can read 'We Primaris Marines' only do many times), I found this to be a good book.

 

Treatment of Primaris felt in Character of the Dark Angels. Secrecy and betrayal of allies as well.

Kais doing the stealthy thing was pretty awesome and rather realistic.

 

Not bad at all. I want more plot development in this direction.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Treatment of Primaris felt in Character of the Dark Angels. Secrecy and betrayal of allies as well.

Kais doing the stealthy thing was pretty awesome and rather realistic.

 

 

Kais does quite a few DYNAMIC ENTRY!!! Maito Gai style with his Ghost Keel, introducing the Ghost Keel's foot to the face of several marines. That guy must have WS2+ or at least BS3+. LOL, should make a Ghostkeel character out of him. Although I still prefer that suit in DoW Dark Crusade.

 

 

So overall, the usual Dark Angel angst combined with the "innocence" of the Primaris gradually peeled back to more 40K grimdark Dark Angel flavor, and eventually the Dark Angels in the novel accept the Primaris in spirit, at least for the Third Company authorized by at least one Interrogator Chaplain. Still pending agreement and authorization from Azrael and co.

 

If you really want to be critical, maybe the worst rating I'll get is C++. But I think B- is more fitting.

 

First novel in a long time I actually read the bolter porn portions in detail as it was easily described and used the correct terminology, like the.....

 

...Repulsor's Lastalon or the Ghost Keel XV95.

 

[Shadowseer]

Bolter porn bits were incredibly faithful to the tabletop indeed, which is something I'd like more authors to adopt.

 

Spot on with the loss of innocence bits, and there was also this nice bit with lieutenant biting his tongue before mentioning Mars.

 

That fella kicking Astartes in the face needs to become a playable character. So much awesome in a single battlesuit.