War of Secrets - Dark Angels and the Primaris

[Punk possum]

I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in quite liking War of Secrets. I agree that the ending was a bit rushed and I'm a bit puzzled by the decision to use the Tau as a cats paw against that particular chapter (he said trying not to give any major spoilers away) but the juxtaposition between the hard bitten veterans of the 3rd  who will do what ever it takes to get what they see as the job done and the fresh faced naivety of the primaris who have a different take on what the job actually is was nicely done. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in quite liking War of Secrets. I agree that the ending was a bit rushed and I'm a bit puzzled by the decision to use the Tau as a cats paw against that particular chapter (he said trying not to give any major spoilers away) but the juxtaposition between the hard bitten veterans of the 3rd  who will do what ever it takes to get what they see as the job done and the fresh faced naivety of the primaris who have a different take on what the job actually is was nicely done. 

 

Vague enough but I think I better put spoiler to answer your question.

 

 

The decision to use the Tau against their own successor chapter is admittedly odd although most likely is due to necessity, as the Dark Angels can't be sure how much of the Angels of Absolution is infected with the psychic plague. Rather than calling into account the successor chapter to justify its purity, they distastefully allow the Tau to bypass that trial and straightout kill the remaining AoA (LOL, sorry, best short form I can think off). Whether because they really find it horrifying the prospect of exterminating their own successor chapter, or whether they decided that one company of AoA was a small price to sacrifice, or even if it was part of a wider plan to destroy the tau is up to speculation.

 

In any case, it wasn't done lightly, and the writing was just enough to convince me that the Dark Angels felt the necessity of the alliance of convenience. And it did lead to one of the best Tau vs Marine fights I ever read.

 

[rendingon1+]

 

I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in quite liking War of Secrets. I agree that the ending was a bit rushed and I'm a bit puzzled by the decision to use the Tau as a cats paw against that particular chapter (he said trying not to give any major spoilers away) but the juxtaposition between the hard bitten veterans of the 3rd  who will do what ever it takes to get what they see as the job done and the fresh faced naivety of the primaris who have a different take on what the job actually is was nicely done. 

 

Vague enough but I think I better put spoiler to answer your question.

 

 

The decision to use the Tau against their own successor chapter is admittedly odd although most likely is due to necessity, as the Dark Angels can't be sure how much of the Angels of Absolution is infected with the psychic plague. Rather than calling into account the successor chapter to justify its purity, they distastefully allow the Tau to bypass that trial and straightout kill the remaining AoA (LOL, sorry, best short form I can think off). Whether because they really find it horrifying the prospect of exterminating their own successor chapter, or whether they decided that one company of AoA was a small price to sacrifice, or even if it was part of a wider plan to destroy the tau is up to speculation.

 

In any case, it wasn't done lightly, and the writing was just enough to convince me that the Dark Angels felt the necessity of the alliance of convenience. And it did lead to one of the best Tau vs Marine fights I ever read.

 

 

No, it doesn't make ANY sense if you think about it for a minute.

1. Angels of Absolution are DA successor chapter, not Ultramarines, not Iron Hands not BA.

2. Angels of Aboslution are part of Unorgiven with Inner Circle, knowledge of the Fallen etc.

3. Angels of Absolution have hunted with  DA many times (Vraks and Codex entries as an exmple)

4. Angels of Absolution are 1st grade DA allies.

So having this facts one should ask do DA really need Xenos to cull their own trusted sucessor chapter because of psyhic contaminaton of SOME brothers (how did they know btw)? no, they wouldn't. They would inform Angels of A about the problem assuming latter didn't know it. And what's easier than gathering all battle brothers in one place and scan them for the taint or something like that? But no. Phill Kelly has decied the most improbable way of solving things because he needed a  stage set for his "supersoldierKais" drivel.

What's more funny? DA give Tau psyocculum so they can track ponentially tainted astartes. Why don't they give it to AoA instead? (btw according to Phill Kelly psuocculum is a skull that chatters it's teeth when psyker is near) . DA are known for not leaving loose ends and YET (to make things even more dumb) psyocculum has DA icon engraved on it. Wow. Guess what? AoA find it.

Entire plot of this book does not make sense, except of showing how cool primaris (and Tau of course) are. I'm truly shoked one might enjoy it.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Make what you wish of it Rendington, the bolterporn is still great, and other parts of the book is still great although I note your reasons and consider it, well, reasonable. It did cross my mind. In the end, I can only say that the Dark Angels have a long history of trolling it's own brothers even within the chapter themselves. Trolling another successor chapter isn't that far away a throw of logic in my opinion.

 

In any case, I like the book as do others. Kindly respect that.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Except what happened was not trolling. Every Unforgiven has it's own Inner Circle and they hide secrets from each other. That much is a given. DA have bigger catacombs and the Supreme Gand Master so it's expected they have much more secrets to guard than the Sucessors.

Still They operate on almost a Legion level when it comes to coordinate actions and it's not unheard of them borrowing Officers from each other whenthe position is vacant.

That's how strong the connection is between the Unforgiven. On that base alone, what is described in the book is not trolling.

 

Frankly it's appaling, disgusting and even revolting that they take one of xenophic Chapters and make them use Xenos to take out brothers-in-arms.

Even coming from a below average writer with a passion for Xenos, that is too low. It's bad soap opera low. There should be  a line that couldn't/shouldn't be crossed when writing about DA in order to attempt make their stories interesting and this book crosses that line and sets a new low.

They should stop writing about DA if they can't handle the poison chalice.

[rendingon1+]

Make what you wish of it Rendington, the bolterporn is still great, and other parts of the book is still great although I note your reasons and consider it, well, reasonable. It did cross my mind. In the end, I can only say that the Dark Angels have a long history of trolling it's own brothers even within the chapter themselves. Trolling another successor chapter isn't that far away a throw of logic in my opinion.

 

In any case, I like the book as do others. Kindly respect that.

Out of curiosity, how and when did DA troll their own successors? If anything Lion's line is known of working together extremely well (legion like) with chapter allegiances being sometimes irrelevant as Chaplain Lucifer pointer out. It is unique.

[Bryan Blaire]

Frankly it's appaling, disgusting and even revolting that they take one of xenophic Chapters and make them use Xenos to take out brothers-in-arms.

Even coming from a below average writer with a passion for Xenos, that is too low. It's bad soap opera low. There should be a line that couldn't/shouldn't be crossed when writing about DA in order to attempt make their stories interesting and this book crosses that line and sets a new low.

They should stop writing about DA if they can't handle the poison chalice.

I actually disagree strongly, Chaplain Lucifer, it’s actually quite intriguing, because the DA “act” Xenophobic, and yet are the longest running known Xenos cooperators in 40K - it’s possible that it goes all the way back to the DA’s Primarch himself.

 

We also know that while the Unforgiven Chapters coordinate the aspects of the Hunt, we don’t know how strongly all the rest of their full activities are truly intertwined. In most aspects of centuries of battle between Fallen activities, they may just meet, provide updates and go about their merry way, calling upon each other when support is truly needed, but otherwise not reaching out except if something touches on the Fallen.

 

Now, “they” may not know exactly what the Watchers are, the DA that can see them may consider them spirits of Caliban or some such, but let’s face it, the DA Supreme Grand Master takes the field with a Watcher carrying the greatest First Legion relic in existence, and we the readers know that the Watchers from the Heresy era are Xenos. Period. No returns, no take backs.

 

If there’s a single Legion that has been “bro-fisting” a Xenos group for millennia, it’s the DA (whether they know it or not, or could even do anything about it if they really wanted to - they’ve been there since the beginning, so I suspect they wouldn’t actually want to, even if “they” knew), and it’s been in the name of anti-Chaos activity from what I can tell, which is what a psychic plague would probably count as (Chaos influence).

 

This book actually makes me wonder just how prevalent is knowledge about the Watchers’ nature in the DA Inner Circle. Is it enough that the DA would actually consider fellow Unforgiven tainted by Chaos low enough to warrant extermination by Xenos? It seems like that’s a possibility, Chaos tainting is probably looked upon as the worst offense an Unforgiven group can have and makes them the basest of disgusting elements in the DA’s eyes, likely being viewed as “worse than Xenos.”

 

Seriously, just because someone doesn’t like the execution of an idea doesn’t mean that idea is wrong or doesn’t play to a theme we may not even be aware of outside the company. Maybe the whole point of the DA is that the secrets about their operations even extend behind the player veil, known to only those in the company that actually write about them and know the “real story” behind the IP. We just see the drips and drops and such that we get and have to make the connections for ourselves.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Seriously, just because someone doesn’t like the execution of an idea doesn’t mean that idea is wrong or doesn’t play to a theme we may not even be aware of outside the company. Maybe the whole point of the DA is that the secrets about their operations even extend behind the player veil, known to only those in the company that actually write about them and know the “real story” behind the IP. We just see the drips and drops and such that we get and have to make the connections for ourselves.

 

 

Well said Bryan. Admittedly I sometimes fall in the camp where I believe so strongly in something that I almost want to fight everyone else who doesn't confirm to my view. In the end, that isn't a fight worth its time and effort. We all have different interpretations and images of our favorite Astartes chapter, and we should all acknowledge that GW does give us the freedom to interpret however we want, even with their own "official canon" which is contradictory at times. Remember the old saying, everything is canon but not everything is true.

 

Whatever we make of War of Secrets, NOTHING can beat Multilasers on Land Raiders by CS goto. Or slaanesh worshipping eldar.

 

As a result, these days I am no longer surprised or annoyed if people call me a furry or say Russ is returning as a furry khornate daemon. They even say it seriously without a hint of a joke (although most do know it's a joke and I take it in stride). But I know my own stance, I know in my heart that isn't right so why bother convincing them otherwise? Crusades almost never work in actual genuine conversion, so I no longer bother.

 

Back to OP though, there is one point I'm not sure what to make off, it's either hilarious or clever, let's try stir discussion to something else:

 

 

Ever wonder how do you set a Bolt rifle on "stun" setting or non-lethal setting? Apparently Primaris do, in a somewhat clever way. Remember how bolt ammo is supposedly mass reactive, a mini primed grenade? Somehow, primaris can "deactivate" the prime setting, essentially shooting a grenade with the pin still in it. then they use their marksmanship to shoot non-lethal parts of the target, best used on humans since the Primaris would know WHERE shooting is likely non-lethal or incapacitating.

 

 

LOL, I later laugh as I reread that part but until now i'm not sure whether it is due to brilliant writing or just so dumb its funny.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

@ Brian.

IMHO the DA don't just "act" Xenophobic... they are xenophobic. The fact that the WitD exist only makes them hypocrite, not any less xenophobic.

Just like the BT that let witches "drive" their ships through the universe, the DA have a hypocrite, symbiotic relation with an element they can't control. The watchers are there, they don't harm the DA,  they can't be harmed and they won't leave the Rock. So they are tolerated.

 

In any case this book is a disservice to the DA and the DA community.

For long we had to put up with "Astelan was right", "The Lion was fence sitting", "DA are the real Fallen" and now this. Another mediocre author on his quest for spotlight tries to pull a "Gav Thorpe" and like a bad reality show he had to go for kind of controvert plot that does no one a favor.

Now we will have to once again endure the "You sided with Tau" or "you sent Tau to kill your brothers in arms" as canon for anyone that doesn't like the DA shade of green.

Curiously enough both authors are known xeno-huggers and are responsible the the biggest cheese that came in the codex form. DA are just the doormat on the way to fame and recognition for some. Shame they can't realise they could be a medal for that fame and recognition.

[rendingon1+]

 

Seriously, just because someone doesn’t like the execution of an idea doesn’t mean that idea is wrong or doesn’t play to a theme we may not even be aware of outside the company. Maybe the whole point of the DA is that the secrets about their operations even extend behind the player veil, known to only those in the company that actually write about them and know the “real story” behind the IP. We just see the drips and drops and such that we get and have to make the connections for ourselves.

So in other worlds: there are no bad books, only people who don't like them.

Bold statement, I can't (and won't) argue with that.

[Bryan Blaire]

@ Brian.

IMHO the DA don't just "act" Xenophobic... they are xenophobic. The fact that the WitD exist only makes them hypocrite, not any less xenophobic.

Just like the BT that let witches "drive" their ships through the universe, the DA have a hypocrite, symbiotic relation with an element they can't control. The watchers are there, they don't harm the DA, they can't be harmed and they won't leave the Rock. So they are tolerated.

 

In any case this book is a disservice to the DA and the DA community.

For long we had to put up with "Astelan was right", "The Lion was fence sitting", "DA are the real Fallen" and now this. Another mediocre author on his quest for spotlight tries to pull a "Gav Thorpe" and like a bad reality show he had to go for kind of controvert plot that does no one a favor.

Now we will have to once again endure the "You sided with Tau" or "you sent Tau to kill your brothers in arms" as canon for anyone that doesn't like the DA shade of green.

Curiously enough both authors are known xeno-huggers and are responsible the the biggest cheese that came in the codex form. DA are just the doormat on the way to fame and recognition for some. Shame they can't realise they could be a medal for that fame and recognition.

I think we can all agree that the Watchers are far more important in the Dark Angels Inner Circle than merely “tolerated.” They carry relics for the Supreme Grand Master (and in game for Deathwing members, as well as providing in-game psychic shielding), and the ability to see them was even a sign of import regarding that member of the DA. It’s also possible that they play a role in a new Supreme Grand Master’s ascension in getting him to Luther’s cell. They tend to the sleeping Lion, for Pete’s sake, even if that is unknown to the DA themselves.

 

The real point I want to know about is exactly how much does the Inner Circle really understand about the Watchers’ nature? If they know they are Xenos, then it’s willing cooperation with a Xenos faction, moreso if they know the Watchers’ motives. If the answer to who the Watchers are has become lost over time, or purposefully obfuscated from all of them, then yes, it’s not necessarily knowing cooperation, but it is still acceptance in that they are willing to be worked alongside. I sincerely doubt that the Grand Master of Librarians doesn’t have some kind of sneaking suspicion about their nature, if he doesn’t fully understand, which means that at least one DA is not acting as a whistleblower.

 

But to tell everyone that this book is a disservice to them means forcing your views on others, which is a disservice to the board members as a Moderator, and it can begin a toxic fandom attitude that shouldn’t be present here where people try to bully others into only seeing their way. There is nothing that is a disservice to fans of the Chapter/Legion, it’s a story that is from the actual owners of the property. Just because a narrow view of the DA developed during a certain period and not updated as new information became available means that they can’t personally reconcile their view with the story does not make that text poor, bad, wrong or anything else. It means that the view does not coincide with what the IP owner has put out there as the information for the faction. To try and lead anyone to believe that a narrow view of something is the only “true” way a faction can be enjoyed is the real disservice.

 

As far as complaining that others will poke fun at you for playing DA because of a story - we’re all big boys and girls, everyone should be able to tolerate a ribbing. If people mean more than that, then they are also a part of the toxic fandom crap that has built up, and also need to be shown the door. We as players shouldn’t tolerate that from ourselves or others. None of us are actually members of any of these factions, and you should easily be able to separate self from portions of a game.

 

Clearly I need to find and read this story now, as any interested in the DA should, and decide for myself exactly how this story fits and informs my views of the Unforgiven, in light of the new information. To me the DA are interesting because of just how different views on them can really be.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

My opinions are my own and despite being a Moderator I am entitled to them and to express them. I am not forcing them on anyone and my opinion carries as much weight as anyone else's.

I think it's hardly toxic Fandom to just point out the weak spots on DA fiction. Again, opinions differ and you were also free to point out the weak spots on my view of the DA and no bad came to the world. Agree to disagree and move on.

[Bryan Blaire]

My opinions are my own and despite being a Moderator I am entitled to them and to express them. I am not forcing them on anyone and my opinion carries as much weight as anyone else's.

I think it's hardly toxic Fandom to just point out the weak spots on DA fiction.

You are assuming motivations for the author and using them to denigrate him in an open forum. That’s the beginning of toxicity right there. There is also an implied insult that if you somehow like this supposedly subpar work, that your own view of the DA and your enjoyment is part of the “disservice” to the faction, which is also a very negative view to take.

 

There is no actual critique of the writing itself going on, aside from a few notes that the ending was rushed, etc., so the book is not being judged a “disservice” based on technical ability, but rather judged a “disservice” due to disagreement with content and the view that the content somehow makes a faction less than it was before because of that content. If the book is not “bad” due to a lack of skill, then it bad due to a disagreement with content. The latter is a personal view that doesn’t speak to the actual quality of the book as a written work.

[plasmaspam]

Using the Tau to clean house whilst maintaining plausible deniability is entirely logical I'd argue - I kinda like the concept of DA ruthlessness in eliminating any undesirable aspect, "end justifies means", that the author seemed to be working towards. I know some people won't like that at all, but I'd say it fits with the Lion's personality.

[Skaorn]

@Chaplain Lucifer: In regards to Kelly as a Xenos lover, if you look at this thread on the Tau's subforum, you'll see that his work on the Tau was not well received. That's just on this forum too.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Brian:

 

First of all it is an open forum so opinions will be voiced, some stronger then others. I admit I am strong in my views but the author track record isn't stellar and it's widely known as not being the best BL can offer so it shouldnt be shock to anyone to read´my rant.

Also, I wouldn't say I was denigrating him, just pointing out that I find that authors that don't have a connection to the faction usually don't provide source material I appreciate. It was not also implied that the people that were satisfied with the book are in the same boat as the author.

In this case I don't agree on the material he provided to be canon and I strongly disagree about his view of the DA. In my view the DA are still noble and still have a shred of honor left so I don't like the fact that a sucessor Chapter was the escape goat to show how ruthless they became. Again, I strongly disagree with the idea of the book but that's it. It's my opinion and I'm just disapointed that it doesn't fit my views, doesn't mean I won't adapt to the repercutions of the book.

 

Second, I am not obliged to critique the style or the quaility of writing to validate my opinions about the message/idea on a given book. The fact that "Romeo and Juliet " was so masterfully penned doesn't change my opinion that Romeo should have hired a ninja clan to assassinate the rival clan and find a happy ending with Juliet. Opinions on ideas don't necessarily be accompanied with opinions on the form as a validation.

 

Thirdly, there was already a precedent set by the infamous Gav Thorpe book, disliked by many over the years now only recently "redeemed" by the conclusion of the Unforgiven trilogy (which is still unpopular, by the way ). So by saying it's a disservice to the DA and the DA comunity , not only it's an opinion , it's an opinion based on the environment surrounding the WH40K tabletop comunity. Everyone can take a light jab or several. No one has to be involved more than the want but some people feel more passion about it, and just like another hobby getting jabbed all the time gets annoying, not for the jab itself but because it's the 1000th jab.

Gav Thorpe provoked the first wave of jabs and I'm just concerned Phil Kelly's book provokes a second. Nothing we can do about it, a jab is a jab, but it gets annoying over time. Whoever plays DA and doesn't got even slighty annoyed once by hearing the "Astelan is right" joke for the 100th time raise a hand please.

 

I

[Bryan Blaire]

BrYan: First of all it is an open forum so opinions will be voiced, some stronger then others. I admit I am strong in my views but the author track record isn't stellar and it's widely known as not being the best BL can offer so it shouldnt be shock to anyone to read´my rant.

And it is often the strong and vocal opinions that are the most toxic to a fandom, whether it’s by having toxic content directly, or causing/generating toxic responses by either showing that the “leadership” (real or implied) will tolerate it (or has such themselves) or by toxic folks posting those responses due to things they disagree with. It’s become practically the nature of the Internet and it’s very prevalent in “nerd fandoms”.

 

Also, I wouldn't say I was denigrating him, just pointing out that I find that authors that don't have a connection to the faction usually don't provide source material I appreciate. It was not also implied that the people that were satisfied with the book are in the same boat as the author.

Well, considering the only author with a “connection” to the faction is also one you hold in contempt, I’m not really sure where your preferred source material comes from.

 

In this case I don't agree on the material he provided to be canon and I strongly disagree about his view of the DA.

Well, unfortunately “canon” isn’t something you agree on, in this case this is an official work and therefore canon. GW is saying “This is what happened.” by publishing it. It’s also one of several views of the post-Heresy DA, so there’s some choice in official view of the DA. If the view used is very far off from one of them, then there really is no point in reading official material, it will never align with the view used and the reader will always feel disgruntled. That’s not a good state.

 

And they are the “Dark” Angels. They should (as either Merry or Pippin said) “look fairer and feel fouler.” The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and just because you followed what you thought was a noble path doesn’t make your home any less dark or grusome. Just because you had good ideals doesn’t mean you didn’t cut down children, abandon cousins on the battlefield, etc.

 

Second, I am not obliged to critique the style or the quaility of writing to validate my opinions about the message/idea on a given book.

You missed the point: if you want to argue that it’s a poorly written book, then you must provide evidence that it is actually poorly written for the argument to actually have any weight. If your argument is simply that you disagree with the content, then you aren’t making an argument regarding the quality of the writing and have no foundation for “it’s a poorly written book.”

 

So by saying it's a disservice to the DA and the DA comunity , not only it's an opinion , it's an opinion based on the environment surrounding the WH40K tabletop comunity.

Considering that there have already been positive opinions about the book from the “DA community”, clearly the statement neither speaks for the DA community nor is your opinion one that is held by the DA community as a whole. So your argument that “it is a disservice” has already been shown to be factually false.

 

Additionally, an official writing about what the DA did in a situation cannot be a “disservice” to the DA, because GW, not you nor the “fan community,” is the only one that gets to officially determine who the DA are and what they do.

 

If you disagree with who GW is showing the DA are and what they do, then perhaps it’s time to find a new faction, or even a new game (if you disagree strongly enough with the company as a whole), to enjoy instead, because officially, the actions taken in this book are who the DA are.

 

Whoever plays DA and doesn't got even slighty annoyed once by hearing the "Astelan is right" joke for the 100th time raise a hand please.

*raises hand*

 

Guys, cry me a river over jabs and how wounding other people’s jokes are. Be an adult about a game of plastic army men, and expect and hold others up to the same standard. Hawser_Kasper has already illustrated that in this very thread from the Space Wolf “side.” If we cant be adults, then we might as well start wearing signs proclaiming to the world that we are “man-children”.

[Shadowseer]

Any chance we could have Moderators clean up this topic a bit? I think we've somewhat veered from the book discussion to more personal exchanges.

 

It's okay to dislike a book. It's okay to like it too. It's not okay to say things like 'If you like this we have nothing to discuss' or yell at each other because you think a book depicts your favourite man-dollies less than ideally.

 

Can we also take a step back for a second and think why we are having this thread? Does it exist for hobby fans to discuss how new material adds new depth to the hobby? Or to hurl insults at everyone who disagrees with you?

[The Shadow Guard]

It just shows that we are indeed very passionate about our hobby and so much more about the history, background and perception of our beloved legion... er... did I say legion. 

 

Shall we all just take some deep breaths and step back a little.

 

What this thread has made me do is to go and try and read that book... like most of the HH seies and DA related books..I buy them all... and they languish waiting to be read... Well, this ones jumped up the queue.

 

What is funny is that when the first real novel on Dark Angels was released (Apart from the seminal short story by Bill King on Deathwing) we had just as many passionate discourses... and it hasn't changed.... Seems the first legion legacy continues unchanged.... :) 

 

SG

[FarFromSam]

Absurd plot, unbelievable story line, and in the 40k universe that's a feat. For reasons already posted, this book is hot garbage. I have to wonder why/how this stuff gets approved. Regarding the xenophobia and watchers talk, the imperium is built upon hypocrisy. The God Emperor denying gods. It's a theme, just because WITD, who are part of our inner workings, are Xenos, doesn't mean we aren't (supposed to be) wildly xenophobic.

 

Any way, just my two cents. The 1st legion deserves better.

[rendingon1+]

"Watchers and DA" in this particular discusssion is just a strawman argument really, used by someone who didn't even read the book and yet is most vocal.

[Bryan Blaire]

Absurd plot, unbelievable story line, and in the 40k universe that's a feat...I have to wonder why/how this stuff gets approved.

Unfortunately I'm still waiting on my copy to arrive. My understanding of how they get approved, per ADB, is that when someone has an idea for a story, they have to pitch it, and as long as the story idea is deemed able to be well executed, fits within the wider IP, and doesn't wildly break any of the tenets of the IP, it can be approved.

 

just because WITD, who are part of our inner workings, are Xenos, doesn't mean we aren't (supposed to be) wildly xenophobic.

Well, ask yourself this - when was the last time that point was actually made in a DA Codex, or book? I remember it being either the 2nd or 3rd Edition Codex, where it specifically said the DA hated even abhumans to the point where they wouldn't take the field on a planet where the IG were using them. However, this hasn't been a focused on detail since that I've read, and I've also wondered why. They have focused more on the lengths that the DA and Unforgiven will take to remain free of Chaos influence in themselves and others, and the pragmatism of the Lion, while having fallen prey to Chaos's machinations themselves. It's very possible this pragmatism and hatred for Chaos have taken a place above the xenophobia (if that is even a point in the background about the DA at GWHQ any more) to the point where doing something about Chaotic taint would lead the DA to see Xenos as a viable tool to deal with it (possibly to be eliminated later). In one of ADB's posts, he had said that sometimes elements that had appeared in previous versions of the game were considered "wrong" and while those elements may not specifically be contradicted or called out in later editions, they are sometimes simply not repeated any more, and that this can be purposeful - that's why I brought up "When was the last time?" because while many may still hold the view of previous statements that the DA are heavily xenophobic, even against abhumans, this may have been determined to be incorrect or an erroneous element, or simply not a focus for the Chapter any more, which could be why it hasn't been highlighted in newer Codexes.

 

I'm hoping to get my copy of the book in the next day or two so I can read for myself what folks are saying is so bad - if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'll come here at say it - the book may be so poorly plotted that while the concept could be plausible to me, the way its written makes that plausibility fall apart - the concept may be acceptable, but the execution is so bad that it shouldn't have logically worked. I'm interested to discuss with more actual story details and examples about why I think things are either right or wrong, well or poorly written.

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Bryan - Well whether or not you like the book, I hope you remain level headed as you have been so far in this thread. Really worried I stepped on a hornet's nest just because I and a few others gave this book a B-. 

 

I'll would like to close off with one final comment: even if the plot doesn't make sense, and i think that is the main gripe here, I still stand by what I say that the WRITING technique was consistent, the bolter porn quite close to tabletop, and the Primaris themselves are OK in character and motivation.

 

Maybe it's because i'm a Space Wolf player/fan and therefore can be more detached from the DA fluff changes, but as a 40K literature reader and player, i like to think I care about almost all faction fluff, even the heretics and xenos, and try find consistency where I can.

 

Catch you guys at the Wolftime, wheneve it comes..... oh God, it's been so long..... and the Orks will come first.....

[Kinstryfe]

So a couple fun things. First off, as a non-member of the First Legion, I find a beautiful irony in Dark Angels fans arguing amongst themselves as to the direction the chapter should be headed, because the fans are now reenacting the defining event in the Legion's history.

 

I will add that as far as the Dark Angels using Xenos as a means to an end, I believe it is fully in the established spirit of The Lion. El'Johnson was known as a ruthlessly effective tactical genius, to the extent that collateral damage was pretty much expected if it was the most effective way to accomplish an objective. While I don't see the Dark Angels ever willingly collaborating with Xenos to achieve the Xenos' goals, I can see a certain efficiency in using the Xenos as a weapon against another foe. Why defeat two armies when they can be turned on each other and then you can slaughter the remains? So this seems in character for not just The First, but I would argue for most Astartes Chapters, since it's efficient.

[Kilofix]

Can someone summarize the book for me within a spoiler tag? Would like to follow but probably won’t be getting the book.